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2014 - U.S. Roster Discussion (Part II)

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Old
05-24-2013, 03:28 PM
  #376
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
He's played 9 games in the playoffs, and only two of them have seen him get more 20 minutes or more. He's also a -5 in those 9 games.

And you lost me at his skating is better, and his vision is better. You're just making excuses for him now. "He's actually better, but his coach is an idiot." Riiiight.



Except Leddy doesn't play top 4 minutes, AD. He's 6th amongst Chicago defensemen in TOI/G, and 5th if you exclude Roscival who only played about half of the season. Keith, Seabrook, Oduya, and Hjalmarsson all averaged more ice time than him. At even strength, he averaged 2 minutes(or more) less than they did. That is sheltered by any definition.

Chicago was the best team in the league during the regular season. It's more than a little ridiculous that you're criticizing Q for misusing Leddy when that was the case. Clearly, he was doing something right, but you're really going to sit there and argue that Q screwed up? That's uh... bold. Not to mention Leddy, over the course of the season, basically had as much PP time as Duncan Keith did. He had one minute less in 48 games, and yet it wasn't enough? Leddy just doesn't have an argument right now. Maybe in 2018, but there is pretty much zero chance the US takes Leddy over Fowler, and Fowler is already a long-shot. One of these players has shown the US they can rely on him to play two-way hockey and has actually been used in that very role by them, and it isn't Leddy. On of these players is getting top 4 responsibility, and even top pairing responsibility, and it isn't Leddy. I think Leddy is a very talented young player, but it really is impossible to argue he's being sheltered heavily in Chicago, and while he's looked very good in that role the US is going to want someone who has proven they can handle greater responsibility. The last thing they are going to want to do is go into Sochi with a defenseman they can't completely trust, because they have no way of knowing how he'd handle big minutes and big responsibility.
Q is an idiot who has a loaded team to work with. Never have I been a fan of his as he simply just changes lines around and never deviates tactics. hence his almost 3 straight playoff early exits. I get to watch him coach every night...there is a lot to be desired with his methods.

again I am not sure what Fowler has done to be positioned ahead of Leddy??? Fowler is well behind in goals, and points, and his plus/minus is terrible compared to Leddy. the only thing you keep stating is that Leddy plays on a stacked team so therefore he is only a product of that...pretty lazy if you ask me Sojourn..

I agree with Rabid that both Fowler and Leddy are well down the list for Sochi, but you still haven't shown me why Fowler is better.

You also stated that Fowler plays top 4 minutes, but Leddy did not...you might want to recheck that my friend...Leddy played top 4 the entire year, top pairing as well..

I will take a guy like Leddy who plays in the top 4 on the top team no doubt about it.

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05-24-2013, 03:58 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
Q is an idiot who has a loaded team to work with. Never have I been a fan of his as he simply just changes lines around and never deviates tactics. hence his almost 3 straight playoff early exits. I get to watch him coach every night...there is a lot to be desired with his methods.

again I am not sure what Fowler has done to be positioned ahead of Leddy??? Fowler is well behind in goals, and points, and his plus/minus is terrible compared to Leddy. the only thing you keep stating is that Leddy plays on a stacked team so therefore he is only a product of that...pretty lazy if you ask me Sojourn..

I agree with Rabid that both Fowler and Leddy are well down the list for Sochi, but you still haven't shown me why Fowler is better.

You also stated that Fowler plays top 4 minutes, but Leddy did not...you might want to recheck that my friend...Leddy played top 4 the entire year, top pairing as well..

I will take a guy like Leddy who plays in the top 4 on the top team no doubt about it.
Fowler is not at all better than Leddy. I don't understand the argument people make about Leddy being on a "stacked team"...that makes it more, not less, impressive he plays in the top 4.

Fowler is so error prone I do not think he would get much time on the Hawks.

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05-24-2013, 04:06 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
Q is an idiot who has a loaded team to work with. Never have I been a fan of his as he simply just changes lines around and never deviates tactics. hence his almost 3 straight playoff early exits. I get to watch him coach every night...there is a lot to be desired with his methods.

again I am not sure what Fowler has done to be positioned ahead of Leddy??? Fowler is well behind in goals, and points, and his plus/minus is terrible compared to Leddy. the only thing you keep stating is that Leddy plays on a stacked team so therefore he is only a product of that...pretty lazy if you ask me Sojourn..

I agree with Rabid that both Fowler and Leddy are well down the list for Sochi, but you still haven't shown me why Fowler is better.

You also stated that Fowler plays top 4 minutes, but Leddy did not...you might want to recheck that my friend...Leddy played top 4 the entire year, top pairing as well..

I will take a guy like Leddy who plays in the top 4 on the top team no doubt about it.
Uh, and you haven't shown me why Leddy is better, unless you're seriously going to try to argue that a sheltered defenseman on a stacked team should be judged strictly by his stats.

AD, I just provided you with TOI stats that completely contradict your claims. I'm not sure what else you want me to do. Leddy was 5th/6th in ice time amongst defenseman on Chicago in the regular season, and averaged a little under 15 minutes of even strength ice time, which was about 3 minutes less than Keith, Seabrook, Oduya, and Hjalmarsson. In contrast, Fowler was 3rd in ice time on Anaheim(averaging 20 seconds less than Souray), and he was 2nd in even strength ice.

Furthermore, in the playoffs, when the games matter the most, guess what happened? Leddy is getting about a minute less per game of ice time, while Fowler got two minutes more of ice time, and actually lead the Anaheim team in even strength minutes. He was also Anaheim's best defenseman against Detroit. So, in the playoffs where it's tougher to shelter a player, Leddy is being used less, while Fowler was used more.

You're willing to blame Q for Leddy not being better, but you aren't willing to give him credit for putting Leddy in a role where he can excel? For putting Leddy on the ice during offensive zone face-offs? For giving him the 2nd most PP time of any defenseman? Q used an offensive defenseman in offensive situations, but he's stupid for doing so? I'm willing to give Leddy credit for what he's done, but I'm not willing to give him credit for what he hasn't done.

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Fowler is not at all better than Leddy. I don't understand the argument people make about Leddy being on a "stacked team"...that makes it more, not less, impressive he plays in the top 4.

Fowler is so error prone I do not think he would get much time on the Hawks.
He's so error prone that Boudreau relied on him heavily, on the 2nd best team in the Western Conference during the regular season? That doesn't seem to fly. Chicago might have won the President's Trophy, but let's not pretend Anaheim was some crap team. Why does Leddy get credit for being on a good team, but Fowler doesn't? Because Chicago was a bit better? Even though Fowler was more important to his team than Leddy was to Chicago?

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Last edited by Sojourn: 05-24-2013 at 04:11 PM.
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05-24-2013, 05:03 PM
  #379
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Leddy is not a better skater than Fowler. Fowler is one of the best skaters in the entire league.

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05-24-2013, 05:06 PM
  #380
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it is more about the way he represented the US only to try to make an Olympic team 4 years ago... I am not saying he isn't a good player, just doesn't really offer much different than what we have...and there is also does he really truly care about representing the US??
It's a lie he does not feel american. He feels both. As we know his mother is american and when he then spent three years plus in the minors fighting to realise his NHL-dream, he did it for the Rochester Americans, every day wearing those american jerseys.

Maybe he once was irritated not getting to play in the world juniors although excellent numbers in the Q, and he years later probably realised it would be the easier fit for a future Olympic participation, but he was asked and he was happy to represent the US.

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05-24-2013, 08:47 PM
  #381
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So envious of your goaltending. Quick and Anderson are lights out...

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05-24-2013, 10:46 PM
  #382
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please explain to me what Fowler has done to be ahead of both Leddy and Goligoski?
He was ahead of Goligoski on a WC team. There was never a point in that tournament where Goligoski looked close to challenging him for his spot on the top pairing. Fowler has improved since then, and he's at an age where improvement is expected to continue for the next few years. Faulk was the only one that could make a good case.

Here is some of his handiwork:


For the record, I agree with Sojourn that Fowler is on the outside, more for his offensive struggles this season than for his defense. I would also put Faulk ahead of him for the moment.

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05-25-2013, 02:24 AM
  #383
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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
please explain to me what Fowler has done to be ahead of both Leddy and Goligoski?
Played against the opposing teams best forwards night in and night out and more than held his own on both ends of the rink. Leddy hasn't done that, because his coach knows he isn't capable of it yet

Edit: So basically what Sojourn has been telling you over and over again


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05-25-2013, 09:49 AM
  #384
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Leddy's lack of size is the biggest reason I see him getting snubbed. Also Faulk isn't the biggest guy either.

I DEF think Martin is getting picked top 6, because he's just a sturdy, steady d-man who gets the job done.

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So envious of your goaltending. Quick and Anderson are lights out...
I didn't get to see all of it yesterday, or the highlights, so can you tell me what the hell went on the last couple games? Was it mostly not Anderson's fault, all the goals that went in the last couple games?

He looked so good when I was tuning in to the Pitt-Sens games, but some of the goals I did see against him looked totally because of defensive unit breakdowns - poor offensive and defensive play that wasn't CA's fault.

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05-25-2013, 10:57 AM
  #385
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Originally Posted by AngelDuck View Post
Played against the opposing teams best forwards night in and night out and more than held his own on both ends of the rink. Leddy hasn't done that, because his coach knows he isn't capable of it yet

Edit: So basically what Sojourn has been telling you over and over again
Chicago has significantly better D than Anaheim...the players "ahead" of Leddy have a skill level no one on your team has.

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05-25-2013, 12:42 PM
  #386
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So envious of your goaltending. Quick and Anderson are lights out...
As well as Howard. It's good to know that goaltending has gone from a weakness to a strength for the US.

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05-25-2013, 12:59 PM
  #387
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I would be shocked if Stepan made this team over Stastny, let alone as #1 or #2 center like some people out him at. He's a lock for 5th center probably.

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05-25-2013, 01:17 PM
  #388
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Leddy's lack of size is the biggest reason I see him getting snubbed. Also Faulk isn't the biggest guy either.

I DEF think Martin is getting picked top 6, because he's just a sturdy, steady d-man who gets the job done.



I didn't get to see all of it yesterday, or the highlights, so can you tell me what the hell went on the last couple games? Was it mostly not Anderson's fault, all the goals that went in the last couple games?

He looked so good when I was tuning in to the Pitt-Sens games, but some of the goals I did see against him looked totally because of defensive unit breakdowns - poor offensive and defensive play that wasn't CA's fault.
All of those guys are 6 feet and 200 pounds. Martin is maybe an inch taller and the same weight.

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05-25-2013, 01:41 PM
  #389
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Does anyone have any thoughts on guys like Niskanen, Braun , Goligoski, Gardiner sneaking in as a 7 or 8 guy on the back line?

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05-25-2013, 01:52 PM
  #390
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Does anyone have any thoughts on guys like Niskanen, Braun , Goligoski, Gardiner sneaking in as a 7 or 8 guy on the back line?
I really can't see it. Gogo is probably the best bet of them IMO but he's a longshot.

I really have to think that 3 of the US slots are basically guaranteed to these 3: Suter, McDonaugh, Jack Johnson. Not necessarily the top 3 of the team, just 3 guys that I would be absolutely stunned if they weren't on it unless they were injured or having the season from hell.

After that I'd say Yandle, Faulk, and Shattenkirk have the best chance to crack the roster followed by Orpik, Martin, and Carlson, with Fowler, Buf (though IMO the US should use him as a forward for the Olympics), and Bogosian as strong candidates as well.

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05-25-2013, 01:58 PM
  #391
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Does anyone have any thoughts on guys like Niskanen, Braun , Goligoski, Gardiner sneaking in as a 7 or 8 guy on the back line?
Frankly I don't think any of them have a chance, but I'd rank Gardiner and Goligoski as the only ones to remotely warrant consideration. Niskanen and Braun I can't see at all.

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05-25-2013, 01:59 PM
  #392
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I really can't see it. Gogo is probably the best bet of them IMO but he's a longshot.

I really have to think that 3 of the US slots are basically guaranteed to these 3: Suter, McDonaugh, Jack Johnson. Not necessarily the top 3 of the team, just 3 guys that I would be absolutely stunned if they weren't on it unless they were injured or having the season from hell.

After that I'd say Yandle, Faulk, and Shattenkirk have the best chance to crack the roster followed by Orpik, Martin, and Carlson, with Fowler, Buf (though IMO the US should use him as a forward for the Olympics), and Bogosian as strong candidates as well.
Frankly I think you have to include Faulk's name if you are mentioning Fowler, Carlson, Bogosian etc. He's every bit as good if not better than those guys.

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05-25-2013, 04:12 PM
  #393
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Chicago has significantly better D than Anaheim...the players "ahead" of Leddy have a skill level no one on your team has.
Wow, really? So Chicago has four defensemen better than anyone on Anaheim's blue line? That's rich, and an absolutely ridiculous claim.

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Frankly I think you have to include Faulk's name if you are mentioning Fowler, Carlson, Bogosian etc. He's every bit as good if not better than those guys.
Agreed. I definitely think Faulk deserves to be there ahead of those three right now.

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05-25-2013, 04:19 PM
  #394
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Wow, really? So Chicago has four defensemen better than anyone on Anaheim's blue line? That's rich, and an absolutely ridiculous claim.



Agreed. I definitely think Faulk deserves to be there ahead of those three right now.

Um, no matter how much you hate Leddy, he's not the 5th dman on the Hawks...keep trying though. Incidentally, I'd love to know who on the Ducks is better than the Hawks' top 3 d-man (and despite your Fowler-love, I'll give you a hint...it's not him).

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05-25-2013, 04:27 PM
  #395
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Um, no matter how much you hate Leddy, he's not the 5th dman on the Hawks...keep trying though. Incidentally, I'd love to know who on the Ducks is better than the Hawks' top 3 d-man (and despite your Fowler-love, I'll give you a hint...it's not him).
That's easy, Beauchemin. After him is Fowler.

I have nothing against Leddy, though I have pointed out numerous times now that Leddy is clearly in the 5/6 spot in terms of ice time. For whatever reason, you and AmericanDream just keep glossing over that. He got three minutes less than four other defensemen, and played significantly less even strength minutes than everyone save Brookbank. How do you justify calling Leddy a top 4 defenseman when the minutes are anything but top 4 minutes? When there are four other defensemen who were clearly ahead of him in the pecking order?

You can call him a top 4 defenseman. Hell, you can call him a top pairing defenseman. The ice time doesn't support this claim, and it pretty emphatically denies it. He got 3rd pairing minutes even strength minutes, and an abundance of PP time. That makes him a 3rd pairing defenseman right now. Maybe it makes him a 3rd pairing defenseman on the best team in the regular season, but it still puts him on the 3rd pairing.

Edit: As is being made clear by the poll, it looks like a number of people have Fowler ahead of Leddy.

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05-25-2013, 04:37 PM
  #396
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That's easy, Beauchemin. After him is Fowler.

I have nothing against Leddy, though I have pointed out numerous times now that Leddy is clearly in the 5/6 spot in terms of ice time. For whatever reason, you and AmericanDream just keep glossing over that. He got three minutes less than four other defensemen, and played significantly less even strength minutes than everyone save Brookbank. How do you justify calling Leddy a top 4 defenseman when the minutes are anything but top 4 minutes? When there are four other defensemen who were clearly ahead of him in the pecking order?

You can call him a top 4 defenseman. Hell, you can call him a top pairing defenseman. The ice time doesn't support this claim, and it pretty emphatically denies it. He got 3rd pairing minutes even strength minutes, and an abundance of PP time. That makes him a 3rd pairing defenseman right now. Maybe it makes him a 3rd pairing defenseman on the best team in the regular season, but it still puts him on the 3rd pairing.

Edit: As is being made clear by the poll, it looks like a number of people have Fowler ahead of Leddy.
lol, it also looks like a lot of ducks fans voted in the poll

you're dead wrong about fowler...there is no way he would be in the top 3 on the hawks. sorry...it just wouldn't happen.

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05-25-2013, 04:55 PM
  #397
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lol, it also looks like a lot of ducks fans voted in the poll

you're dead wrong about fowler...there is no way he would be in the top 3 on the hawks. sorry...it just wouldn't happen.
I never said he would be in the top 3, and honestly I just don't know if he would be. I said Fowler is after Beauchemin, as in he's Anaheim's #2.

There was a poll like a month ago asking about Leddy vs. Fowler, and Fowler won that one, too. There is just no basis to take Leddy over Fowler right now, unless we're talking strictly on the PP. On a slightly weaker team, Fowler is significantly more important.

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05-25-2013, 09:33 PM
  #398
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Fowler's biggest issue on the powerplay is that I'm not sure he could break a piece of paper with that shot.

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05-25-2013, 10:35 PM
  #399
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People are sleeping on Schnieder he should be the #2 goalie ahead of Miller Anderson and Howard.

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05-25-2013, 11:31 PM
  #400
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Fowler's biggest issue on the powerplay is that I'm not sure he could break a piece of paper with that shot.
Yeah, he really shouldn't be the shooter on the point. He's better when he can roam a bit and use his mobility.

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