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Constructive Debate Time: Are You Happy With the Core?

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Old
04-05-2013, 11:54 AM
  #1
umwoz
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Constructive Debate Time: Are You Happy With the Core?

Preface: Just an idea, but it would be nice to get some constructive, friendly, mannerly debate about the core of this team. I'm not here to throw trade proposals at the wall, propose that we waive everyone, or fire any staff. This is an assessment of the foundation of this team based on our games played here in Winnipeg, and extending back to Atlanta.

Now, here's my stance. Please, come in and disagree with me if you feel opposed to what I say, but let's back this up with some logic. Again, not a trade proposal/free agency thread, but a friendly debate.

----------------------------------------------

I know this is going to come off as overreaction, but I honestly think this team needs to be shook at the core. I'm not saying this because of a 5 game losing streak, or even the 115 or so games here in Winnipeg. This is about the franchise dating back to Atlanta, it's performance since then, and how it has progressed. This feels like the same losing franchise from Atlanta, and while new players coming in will improve the team whether that be from the draft, trades or free agency, there is still a feel of that lingering "losing mentality". My underlying point being, I don't think that a losing mentality is something to build on top of, it is something that needs to be pulled from the team so that they can move forward.

Now that said, what do I mean by shook at the core? First off, I don't mean blowing up the team and building from scratch. This isn't going to be a revolutionary new idea, but I think it starts by moving out Byfuglien. For a guy that is looked at as a cornerstone of the team, he sure brings an inconsistent effort. He has some tremendous ability and is a unique player when he wants to be, but that Byfuglien doesn't show up most games. He can be dynamic, a bomb from the point and a physical beast at times. However, many games we see a guy that loses his assignment allowing a free roamer, a guy that rarely initiates contact and one that is often coasting around the ice watching the puck. He doesn't look motivated, and whether or not he is wearing a "C" he is looked at as one of the leaders. Again, at his best there isn't a player in the league like Byfuglien, at his worst he's dime a dozen. I think Noel said it best last night . . .

Quote:
This isn’t the first time that they have put a puck at the net and he is standing beside the guy without taking stick, so after awhile you just can’t continue down that road. If you’re not going to make changes, don’t play!
I don't mean some unrealistic nonsense like Buff for Bobby Ryan, it honestly isn't about the return. This is about shaking the team, making an emphatic statement to get the attention of our players.

When you look at guys like Evander Kane out there hitting anything that moves to spark some energy, Wheeler pumping his legs to try to start a rush, and Pavelec making these desperation saves, the team looks dangerous. They feed off of a dedicated crowd and look to bring energy to the building. While they may not be the most skilled group, they look motivated to win no matter who their opponent is. I think those guys are very important to the team.

I think Ladd, Wheeler, Kane, Enstrom, Bogo, Pavelec(to list only current players) makes up a very solid core to build around with young players and picks. Why? Because those players bring fire to the ice.

To draw comparison here, and I know this isn't the same caliber or situation, but look at how the Columbus Blue Jackets benefited from trading Rick Nash. One year later, even before acquiring Gaborik the team plays hard. They were expected to be the worst team in the league, but they bring a compete level that can match any team in the league. THAT is what you want at the base, you add top prospects(In their case Murray, Atkinson, Jenner) like Scheifele, Trouba, Lowry to that(Chevy's drafting of high motor players is very commendable) because you want young players entering a competitive atmosphere where complacency isn't accepted.

--------------------------------------------------------------

First and foremost, thanks to those of you who took the time to read that through. More importantly, do you agree? Disagree? Lay somewhere in the middle?

And of course the title question, are you happy with this core? Why or Why Not?

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04-05-2013, 12:04 PM
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surixon
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Kane, Ladd, Wheeler, Enstrom and Bogosian are a good foundation, not elite but good. If we can get Scheifele, Trouba and our first pick to join in this group in the next few years then I think we can be pretty good going forward.

I am not sold in the least on Pavelic though, he lacks the consistency of upper echelon goalies in this league.

For this summer I'm looking at moving Buff for a scoring RW and possibly a young 2nd pairing defenseman.

I would also like to take advantage of some teams in cap trouble or teams that need to move players. I personally make a play at Bernier to push Pavs or to supplant him. I also try to get a grizzled vet for the third line.

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04-05-2013, 12:07 PM
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Flair Hay
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Yeah man. I came back from cheering for Vancouver who were seen as being a team lacking heart and desire. But even that team seemed to be able to garner enough energy for a push game to game when they were down. Part o it is skill, part of it is mentality. Both need to be improved a fair amount. How? Well that's the tough part I guess.

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04-05-2013, 12:13 PM
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Kane-???-Wheeler
Ladd-Scheifele-Little
???-???-???
Wright-???-???

Enstrom-Bogosian
???-Trouba
???-???

Pavelec
???

Is our team in the future, IMO. These are the only players who I at least haven't been miffed at once or twice (Pavs is excused, every goalie has bad nights, although more consistency would be nice)

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04-05-2013, 12:14 PM
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Flair Hay
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Hadn't considered Bernier but he might be a legitimate option as well. Having two guys capable of starting could help push each other. Price might be better spent elsewhere though would be my hesitance.

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04-05-2013, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StronGeer View Post
Kane-???-Wheeler
Ladd-Scheifele-Little
???-???-???
Wright-???-???

Enstrom-Bogosian
???-Trouba
???-???

Pavelec
???

Is our team in the future, IMO. These are the only players who I at least haven't been miffed at once or twice (Pavs is excused, every goalie has bad nights, although more consistency would be nice)
I agree with everything but Little. If Chevy is going to have an undersized player on his team they better be a gamebreaker. It is my opinion that Little has peaked in his potential.

We've got a few players + a few prospects that have the potential to make up a good core, but our current core just isn't good enough.

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04-05-2013, 12:18 PM
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I consider Kane, Bogosian, Ladd, Enstrom, and Wheeler to be the core of this team. Everyone else is expendable to a certain extent and I've often wondered what this team would look like if management decided to blow it up in the first year. If we finished close to the bottom the last two years we could have had 2 of:

RNH, Landeskog, Huberdeau, Larsson, Strome, Yakupov, Murray, Galchenyuk, Reinhart, Reilly (if we decided to draft the top 5 exactly the same as these two years)

Not to mention players like Little, Byfuglien, and Pavelec could bring in some good picks or roster players.

Imagine a top 6 of

Kane - Galchenyuk - Wheeler
Ladd - (acquired via trade) - Landeskog

That'd be pretty interesting and it's fun to speculate but taking a rebuilding route is always tough on everyone.

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04-05-2013, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StronGeer View Post
Kane-???-Wheeler
Ladd-Scheifele-Little
???-???-???
Wright-???-???

Enstrom-Bogosian
???-Trouba
???-???

Pavelec
???

Is our team in the future, IMO. These are the only players who I at least haven't been miffed at once or twice (Pavs is excused, every goalie has bad nights, although more consistency would be nice)
I agree this is the team moving forward, however I'd hazard that Slater on the 4th line is also a lock going forward. Hard working guy, good at faceoffs, and visible in the community are all things this organization covets.

I'm also liking what Santorelli and Tangradi bring for 3rd liners thus far. If they keep playing "Wright-like" then they should be on the team

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04-05-2013, 12:24 PM
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surixon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnipeg Jets View Post
I consider Kane, Bogosian, Ladd, Enstrom, and Wheeler to be the core of this team. Everyone else is expendable to a certain extent and I've often wondered what this team would look like if management decided to blow it up in the first year. If we finished close to the bottom the last two years we could have had 2 of:

RNH, Landeskog, Huberdeau, Larsson, Strome, Yakupov, Murray, Galchenyuk, Reinhart, Reilly (if we decided to draft the top 5 exactly the same as these two years)

Not to mention players like Little, Byfuglien, and Pavelec could bring in some good picks or roster players.

Imagine a top 6 of

Kane - Galchenyuk - Wheeler
Ladd - (acquired via trade) - Landeskog

That'd be pretty interesting and it's fun to speculate but taking a rebuilding route is always tough on everyone.
Well we made out pretty good with Trouba last year and I still think Scheifele can turn into a top 5 player from his draft. If we can add a Mckinnon, Drouan, Barkov or Jones this year it will give us a pretty good foundation.

The biggest thing I want to see happen is cleaning out the deadwood this summer. I want people here that work hard and are committed, as I personally think that there are a lot of players on the team that arent .

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04-05-2013, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by hockeyarenadotnet View Post
I agree with everything but Little. If Chevy is going to have an undersized player on his team they better be a gamebreaker. It is my opinion that Little has peaked in his potential.

We've got a few players + a few prospects that have the potential to make up a good core, but our current core just isn't good enough.
I agree that Little is a fringe part of the "core" but I think he is defensively responsible and can chip in on offence as well. Plus it'd be nice to see him back at wing where everyone knows he's had success. I figured I had to pick a two way forward, and it sure wasn't going to be Burmi.

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04-05-2013, 12:28 PM
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Howard Chuck
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I think your original point about the influx of young guys to the team next year (Trouba, Scheifele) and the atmosphere that you want them to experience, is a great point. Next year is going to be a much different year if things go the way I expect them to, with younger guys and a couple of big moves. I have been suggesting for a while that the growing sense of mediocrity needs to be removed from the Jets dressing room.

Look down the bench during 3rd period play when we're losing..... Who looks angry and can't wait to get out on the ice to urgently try to get back into the game? The answer is a very short list.

I would hate to see young ambitious guys trying to make a name for themselves, be led by some of the vets we have on our team.

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04-05-2013, 12:29 PM
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Kane ladd bogo can stay
The rest I would be perfectly fine getting rid of, as long as it improved the team.

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04-05-2013, 12:33 PM
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A lot of interesting things about your post. One of the things I found interesting, though unrelated, it's your note of Columbus playing better without Nash. Which is interesting because he's been a bright spot for NYR this year as far as I'm aware. Sometimes changing just to change really works. (though, there was a lot that went the other way, too, etc)

My opinion?

2 years down the road I think a strong team can be built around these players.

Kane/Scheifele/Wheeler
Ladd/Little/Burmistrov (or Burmi at C and Little at wing)

I think that's a strong top 6. It involves taking a chance on Burmi, and I acknowledge that. Some people will and wont disagree with me but that's fine. Beauty of this is if it fails, he's a great 3C and PK guy. I don't like risking what I think is his potential by trading him so young.

Or you can re-arrange the lines to be...

LLW
Kane/Schief/Burmi

and treat them as 1A/1B as well. I expect Lowry to make some 3rd line noise. I think Wright is worth keeping around, I like his effort, and defensive skill for a 4th line guy, we will see what the farm brings beyond that. Resign antro at a discount if he'll do it, too. For a 3c he does a good job.

On Defence build the top 4 out of Bogo, Enstrom, Trouba, and Redmond, we hope. Next 2 guys we'll have filled with current prospects most likely, postma, kulda, etc.

Now here is where I have no clue...

Obviously that doesn't look a lot different from what we have now. It relies on 2 things. development from our top 6 into better players, (makes the assumption that Kane, Schief, and Burmi all have a lot of growing to do still, which for Kane is a scary thought ) and Trouba and Redmond both being solid top 4 guys in 2 years. I'd like to think that both of those assumptions are reasonable but there are obviously no guarantees.

I have two big questionmarks. What do you get in trade for Buff, because IMO we need to sell high on him, and do we stay the course with Pavelec?

You can either trade him for an extra top 6 guy, as Insurance for Burmi/Schiefele, or to allow Burmi to be an elite 3c, while picking up another center in trade for Buff, allowing Little to play wing, like so...
Kane/Scheif/Wheeler
Ladd/????/Little
????/Burmi/????

OR you could trade Byfug for your "goalie of the future". Like getting Biship + from Ottawa for him. (just a comparison, since the move obviously can't be done anymore) Schneider? (I wish... He liked it here, right? )

And then if you do that, you get something good for Pavelec. I think you keep Monty as backup because he's good enough in that role, unless another team wants to take a chance on him as a starter.

This is assuming no superstar 1 year from junior to top 6 draft picks next year, or HUGE Ufa pickups.

Basically I think the shake needs to be in the form of Trouba, Schief and Redmond stepping up into big minutes, and getting something good and long term for Buff.

But it all depends on what you trade him for, and if you keep Pavelec. I don't know that he's the answer myself, but getting a great #1 goalie isn't easy.


Last edited by winterpeg: 04-05-2013 at 12:40 PM.
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04-05-2013, 12:34 PM
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I agree, I think guys like Buff need to go. Pavelec is on the outside of the core, he has never put up even above average numbers.

Ladd, Wheeler, Kane, Bogosian, Enstrom are the only players I don't want moved. I think with proper team mates that core can really move forward.

I'm not sure about Little, he's definitely a good player and we need him, just not sure about his long term fit with this team. I've always seen him as more of a winger. The problem is necessity.

Hainsey should be kept around for at least a year or two. He has a good fundamental game, and is a good pairing with Bogosian. His communication is starting to rub off on other D.

Stuart, Jokinen, Clitsome, Meech, Wellwood, Miettenen, Thorburn all have fundamentally flawed games, have little or no offensive ability as forwards, and tend to be defensive liabilities. Off load them if we can, and don't renew if we can't. These are the players that need to be replaced moving forward.

Wright, Slater, and Peluso are our future 4th line. All three are good soldiers that either bring excellent defensive play, faceoff ability, good fighters, or a combo of all three. Exactly what you want in a 4th line.

Burmistrov should be kept as a project, prices offered would be too low. I'm sure he can be re-signed pretty cheap anyways.

Antropov doesn't fit this team long term, but he may be kept for a year out of necessity.

Byfuglien should be sold while the price is still somewhat high. We have four RHD behind him. He can be replaced. No problem selling him this summer.

Haven't seen enough of Postma, Kulda, Redmond, Santorelli, Tangradi, Gagnon, Trouba, Scheifele, etc.. to form an opinion. We may have some future core pieces there.

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04-05-2013, 12:39 PM
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Howard Chuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winterpeg View Post
A lot of interesting things about your post. One of the things I found interesting, though unrelated, it's your note of Columbus playing better without Nash. Which is interesting because he's been a bright spot for NYR this year as far as I'm aware. Sometimes changing just to change really works. (though, there was a lot that went the other way, too, etc)

My opinion?

2 years down the road I think a strong team can be built around these players.

Kane/Scheifele/Wheeler
Ladd/Little/Burmistrov (or Burmi at C and Little at wing)

I think that's a strong top 6. It involves taking a chance on Burmi, and I acknowledge that. Some people will and wont disagree with me but that's fine. Beauty of this is if it fails, he's a great 3C and PK guy.

Or you can re-arrange the lines to be...

LLW
Kane/Schief/Burmi

and treat them as 1A/1B as well. I expect Lowry to make some 3rd line noise. I think Wright is worth keeping around, I like his effort, and defensive skill for a 4th line guy, we will see what the farm brings beyond that. Resign antro at a discount if he'll do it, too. For a 3c he does a good job.

On Defence build the top 4 out of Bogo, Enstrom, Trouba, and Redmond, we hope. Next 2 guys we'll have filled with current prospects most likely, postma, kulda, etc.

Now here is where I have no clue...

Obviously that doesn't look a lot different from what we have now. It relies on 2 things. development from our top 6 into better players, (makes the assumption that Kane, Schief, and Burmi all have a lot of growing to do still, which for Kane is a scary thought ) and Trouba and Redmond both being solid top 4 guys in 2 years. I'd like to think that both of those assumptions are reasonable but there are obviously no guarantees.

I have two big questionmarks. What do you get in trade for Buff, because IMO we need to sell high on him, and do we stay the course with Pavelec?

You can either trade him for an extra top 6 guy, as Insurance for Burmi/Schiefele, or to allow Burmi to be an elite 3c, while picking up another center in trade for Buff, allowing Little to play wing, like so...
Kane/Scheif/Wheeler
Ladd/????/Little
????/Burmi/????

OR you could trade him for your "goalie of the future". Like getting Biship + from Ottawa for him. (just a comparison, since the move obviously can't be done anymore) Schneider? (I wish... )

And then if you do that, you get something good for Pavelec. I think you keep Monty as backup because he's good enough in that role, unless another team wants to take a chance on him as a starter.

This is assuming no superstar 1 year from junior to top 6 draft picks next year, or HUGE Ufa pickups.

Basically I think the shake needs to be in the form of Trouba, Schief and Redmond stepping up into big minutes, and getting something good and long term for Buff.

But it all depends on what you trade him for, and if you keep Pavelec. I don't know that he's the answer myself, but getting a great #1 goalie isn't easy.
I completely agree with the bolded (and most of it actually). I would go as far as moving a few more 'veteran' pieces as well. I know you need leadership, but I don't believe that it will come from a disinterested party of any age.

I would rather watch a team of young guys playing their hearts out and loving the game while making some mistakes, than watch guys who really don't seem to care as much as they should.

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04-05-2013, 12:46 PM
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Pavelec is on the outside of the core, he has never put up even above average numbers.
I agree. If the return on buff is a goalie who can put up nice numbers, that makes me a happy jets fan.

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Originally Posted by allan5oh View Post
I'm not sure about Little, he's definitely a good player and we need him, just not sure about his long term fit with this team. I've always seen him as more of a winger. The problem is necessity.
I think this is why Little is an important piece to keep, because he's a center for as long as we need him, and the second we don't, BAM, good top 6 RW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by allan5oh View Post
Hainsey should be kept around for at least a year or two. He has a good fundamental game, and is a good pairing with Bogosian. His communication is starting to rub off on other D.
I like this for another reason, which is that Bogo is quite complimentary of the help Hainsey has been to him in forming his game, clearly Hainsey is not a superstar, but I think he's a good mentor, and that might be great for Trouba's game, just like Bogosian feels that it was for his. If we flip Buff in the off season, and hang on to Hainsey, even though throwing Trouba into the top 4 is pretty brave, I think pairing him with Hainsey he would do okay. Hainsey is serviceable in his position, himself, but he makes other players better.

Though a Trouba-Redmond bottom pairing would make me all kinds of happy too.

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04-05-2013, 01:09 PM
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I agree, I think guys like Buff need to go. Pavelec is on the outside of the core, he has never put up even above average numbers.

Ladd, Wheeler, Kane, Bogosian, Enstrom are the only players I don't want moved. I think with proper team mates that core can really move forward.

I'm not sure about Little, he's definitely a good player and we need him, just not sure about his long term fit with this team. I've always seen him as more of a winger. The problem is necessity.

Hainsey should be kept around for at least a year or two. He has a good fundamental game, and is a good pairing with Bogosian. His communication is starting to rub off on other D.

Stuart, Jokinen, Clitsome, Meech, Wellwood, Miettenen, Thorburn all have fundamentally flawed games, have little or no offensive ability as forwards, and tend to be defensive liabilities. Off load them if we can, and don't renew if we can't. These are the players that need to be replaced moving forward.

Wright, Slater, and Peluso are our future 4th line. All three are good soldiers that either bring excellent defensive play, faceoff ability, good fighters, or a combo of all three. Exactly what you want in a 4th line.

Burmistrov should be kept as a project, prices offered would be too low. I'm sure he can be re-signed pretty cheap anyways.

Antropov doesn't fit this team long term, but he may be kept for a year out of necessity.

Byfuglien should be sold while the price is still somewhat high. We have four RHD behind him. He can be replaced. No problem selling him this summer.

Haven't seen enough of Postma, Kulda, Redmond, Santorelli, Tangradi, Gagnon, Trouba, Scheifele, etc.. to form an opinion. We may have some future core pieces there.
On any playoff bound team in the NHL Pav is a top 5 goal tender in the NHL. Honestly we never win inspite of him ever, we always win because of him. The quality of chances this team gives up on a nightly basis is scary as hell.

Pav is very much part of the core. Buff can go this off season, I want a kings ransom though. If we are going to move him I want like 2 first rounders and 2 roster players etc. He can help a playoff team get over the hump but right now he is wasted on this team, and he would serve us much better by turned into a top line winger and center and a pick or two.

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04-05-2013, 01:14 PM
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I think this is why Little is an important piece to keep, because he's a center for as long as we need him, and the second we don't, BAM, good top 6 RW.
This I agree with. He's a utility forward, like Wellwood, but consistently productive.

All in all, with the core from my post before, I am happy. Elite wingers in Kane, Ladd and Wheeler, 3 Defencemen who could be/are top pairing guys. Scheifele for the character and hopefully he meets his offensive upside.

A big thing for me next season is getting rid of the chaff. If our young players come in and see the apathy, that could crush their drive. Scheif and Trouba have a fire under them, and I don't want Antro to pee it out.

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04-05-2013, 01:14 PM
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On any playoff bound team in the NHL Pav is a top 5 goal tender in the NHL. Honestly we never win inspite of him ever, we always win because of him. The quality of chances this team gives up on a nightly basis is scary as hell.
Statistics disagree with you. He has constantly floated around .900 sv%. He's never put up the NHL average sv%.

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04-05-2013, 01:22 PM
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To those who want a kings ransom for Buff, how about Bernier+ and taking said Kings ransom from the Kings? #irony

Bernier is playing pretty stellar this year (.927). Getting rid of Buff for good stuff is worth it to me, and Bernier is going to get "Cory Schneider'd" behind 27 yr. old Quick for YEARS to come if he doesn't move. Which is exactly why he'll move, so it shouldn't take too much to break him free. We send Buff, get bernier and a bit back...

And then send Pavelec to Tampa Bay, because if Bishop fails they'll probably buy their 3rd goalie this year. (for Stamkos and a 1st... of course...)


/edit to simplify
Step 1) Trade Buff
Step 2) Get awesome starting goalie
Step 3) Get Stamkos
Step 4) ??????
Step 5) Profit.


Last edited by winterpeg: 04-05-2013 at 01:28 PM.
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04-05-2013, 01:24 PM
  #21
broinwhyteridge
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Originally Posted by folix View Post
Buff can go this off season, I want a kings ransom though. If we are going to move him I want like 2 first rounders and 2 roster players etc.
Yeah, that's realistic for sure.

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04-05-2013, 01:25 PM
  #22
StronGeer
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Originally Posted by winterpeg View Post
And then send Pavelec to Tampa Bay, because if Bishop fails they'll probably buy their 3rd goalie this year. (for Stamkos and a 1st... of course... )
Let's not get greedy here. Try to be realistic.

Stamkos and a 2nd

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04-05-2013, 01:26 PM
  #23
Flair Hay
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Originally Posted by allan5oh View Post
Statistics disagree with you. He has constantly floated around .900 sv%. He's never put up the NHL average sv%.
I think he's saying on a Boston/NYR/Nashville he would be. Tough to tell though. Pav's contract kind of makes it a moot point though. He's our goalie for at least another year based on that alone.

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04-05-2013, 01:30 PM
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winterpeg
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Originally Posted by bhay1987 View Post
I think he's saying on a Boston/NYR/Nashville he would be. Tough to tell though. Pav's contract kind of makes it a moot point though. He's our goalie for at least another year based on that alone.
The reason why NYR and Nashville have even serviceable GAA stats is because they have arguably 2 of the 3 best goaltenders in the league.

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04-05-2013, 01:32 PM
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Joe Hallenback
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Yes for the most part. What people have to understand is Atlanta did leave us with a good system or an abundance of quality prospects. Chevy came from Chicago where they built a winner and have a tremendous system and pipeline of prospects filtering in.

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