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Old
04-02-2013, 08:40 AM
  #151
Henkka
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Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
Calling for what?

I wanted Bouwmeester personally, but a 1st rounder was the one thing I wouldn't give up and I'm fine with this. I would have dealt one of our dozen wing prospects however, but Flames were obviously more interested in picking their own blue chipper through the draft.
I would have been against giving up 2013 1st rounder too, because there's a big risk that we could fall in the standings, like last year. Last year it was predictable, this year I'm still afraid that we will sink deep if injuries will hit for Zeta, Dats or Howie, and now Z is out and gassed.

But that was pretty clever trade to insent a clause there, that the 2013 1st rounder slides to 2014 draft (that should be a little bit worse?), if the Blues fell out of the playoffs.

With that clause the trade could have also worked for us.

***

What comes to last trade deadline, we traded 29th pick (on the trade time we were 2nd in the standings = current value) of a mediocre draft for Quincey. Basicly a 2nd rounder, but Quincey-whiners want to talk like it was high 1st. Holland said somewhere that there (at 2012 draft) isn't very much 1st round talent left after the 15th pick, so it was pretty safe to trade away.

It's a totally different value than trading a 1st pick this year with a risk to "drop" in a 10-15th pick in a great draft year. Most people in here don't have any clue about these draft values and rankings, that our management with all the scouting staff surely knows better.


Last edited by Henkka: 04-02-2013 at 08:51 AM.
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04-02-2013, 08:44 AM
  #152
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I am going to post this again because I think it is an important point. Surprised no one noticed it:


Why did Feaster refuse to take some of JBo's salary???

Take on about 2-3 Million of JBo's deal. It is only for 1 year.
This would have been a SIGNIFICANT move, that increases his value.
On the TSN interview Feaster himself said the Salary took alot of teams out of the running.

I mean really... Is the Calgary owner a CHEAP ass??
You just saved Iginla's Salary and JBo's next season.
You are rebuilding.. so you are going to drop to the salary floor.

If his salary is taking out his trade value, take that off the table.
Maximize your return.

JBo at 4 Million per season sounds MUCH MUCH different than JBo at 6.6.

JBo is at worst a "good" defensemen if you don't mention the salary.

I think Calgary should have gotten more. Crap for 4Mil a year for 1 year... where is the risk?

How is it that no team topped this offer?
Take the Salary out of the deal and you get a SIGNIFICANTLY better return. I have no idea why they refused to take some salary... they are going to shed a crap load of salary when 1-2 more names leave town today and tommorow (Kipper etc)


Last edited by BinCookin: 04-02-2013 at 08:58 AM.
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04-02-2013, 08:48 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
I would have been against giving up 2013 1st rounder too, because there's a big risk that we could fall in the standings, like last year.

But that was pretty clever trade to insent a clause there, that the 2013 1st rounder slides to 2014 draft, if the Blues fell out of the playoffs.

With that clause that trade could have also worked for us.

We traded 29th pick (on the trade time of the value) of a mediocre draft for Quincey. It's a totally different value than trading a 1st pick with a risk to drop it to a 10th pick in a great draft year. Most people in here don't have any clue about these draft values, that our management with all the scouting staff surely knows better.
I actually didn't know you could do conditions like that, but yeah it could've made it tolerable. The obvious risk is that you do even worse next season and it ends up a valuable pick anyway. Still a 1st rounder after all. But like you say, a 1st rounder comes in many different shapes. I can look from our standpoint though, and it looks like it's in the mid range this year and it could very well be in the mid range next season too.

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04-02-2013, 08:54 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
I am going to post this again because I think it is an important point. Surprised no one noticed it:


Why did Feaster refuse to take some of JBo's salary???

Take on about 2-3 Million of JBo's deal. It is only for 1 year.
This would have been a SIGNIFICANT move, that increases his value.
On the TSN interview Feaster himself said the Salary took alot of teams out of the running.

I mean really... Is the Calgary owner a CHEAP ass??
You just saved Iginla's Salary and JBo's next season.
You are rebuilding.. so you are going to drop to the salary floor.

If his salary is taking out his trade value, take that off the table.
Maximize your return.

JBo at 4 Million per season sounds MUCH MUCH different than JBo at 6.6.

JBo is at worst a "good" defensemen if you don't mention the salary.

I think Calgary should have gotten more. Crap for 4Mil a year for 1 year... where is the risk.

How is it that no team topped this offer?
Take the Salary out of the deal and you get a SIGNIFICANTLY better return. I have no idea why they refused to take some salary... they are going to shed a crap load of salary when 1-2 more names leave town today and tommorow (Kipper etc)
You're making a good point and one I haven't paid much thought to myself. A big reason Bouw came relatively cheap was the small market, and obviously his NTC. A $4M caphit probably would've broadened the market to at least a handful of teams(assuming his NTC list allowed), and realistically a better return.

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04-02-2013, 08:58 AM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
I am going to post this again because I think it is an important point. Surprised no one noticed it:


Why did Feaster refuse to take some of JBo's salary???

Take on about 2-3 Million of JBo's deal. It is only for 1 year.
This would have been a SIGNIFICANT move, that increases his value.
On the TSN interview Feaster himself said the Salary took alot of teams out of the running.

I mean really... Is the Calgary owner a CHEAP ass??
You just saved Iginla's Salary and JBo's next season.
You are rebuilding.. so you are going to drop to the salary floor.

If his salary is taking out his trade value, take that off the table.
Maximize your return.

JBo at 4 Million per season sounds MUCH MUCH different than JBo at 6.6.

JBo is at worst a "good" defensemen if you don't mention the salary.

I think Calgary should have gotten more. Crap for 4Mil a year for 1 year... where is the risk.

How is it that no team topped this offer?
Take the Salary out of the deal and you get a SIGNIFICANTLY better return. I have no idea why they refused to take some salary... they are going to shed a crap load of salary when 1-2 more names leave town today and tommorow (Kipper etc)
That is a great point. I have no idea why they wouldnt do that. They pretty much limited themselves to 1 or 2 teams by not doing that. I would hate to be a Flames fan, Feaster really makes Holland look like a genius.

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04-02-2013, 08:59 AM
  #156
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Too many people in these kinds of hypothetical discussions adopt the video game mentality of proposing deals under the assumption the other teams in question will always accept them.

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04-02-2013, 09:00 AM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
I am going to post this again because I think it is an important point. Surprised no one noticed it:


Why did Feaster refuse to take some of JBo's salary???

Take on about 2-3 Million of JBo's deal. It is only for 1 year.
This would have been a SIGNIFICANT move, that increases his value.
On the TSN interview Feaster himself said the Salary took alot of teams out of the running.

I mean really... Is the Calgary owner a CHEAP ass??
You just saved Iginla's Salary and JBo's next season.
You are rebuilding.. so you are going to drop to the salary floor.

If his salary is taking out his trade value, take that off the table.
Maximize your return.

JBo at 4 Million per season sounds MUCH MUCH different than JBo at 6.6.

JBo is at worst a "good" defensemen if you don't mention the salary.

I think Calgary should have gotten more. Crap for 4Mil a year for 1 year... where is the risk?

How is it that no team topped this offer?
Take the Salary out of the deal and you get a SIGNIFICANTLY better return. I have no idea why they refused to take some salary... they are going to shed a crap load of salary when 1-2 more names leave town today and tommorow (Kipper etc)
Yeah, that seems to be really idiotic move.

Even 1 million could do a big difference. That takes at least 50% away of his overpayment or even more. Bouwmeester for 5.67 million is a great deal.

Maybe nobody hasn't told for Feaster what you can do with the new CBA.

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04-02-2013, 09:04 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Too many people in these kinds of hypothetical discussions adopt the video game mentality of proposing deals under the assumption the other teams in question will always accept them.
i agree and likewise too many people in these threads adopt the HF board mentality of believing all our prospects will turn into studs(when likely at best one might) and thus overall value them by believing the hype that the big red machince turns out superstars every other draft

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04-02-2013, 09:09 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
i agree and likewise too many people in these threads adopt the HF board mentality of believing all our prospects will turn into studs(when likely at best one might) and thus overall value them by believing the hype that the big red machince turns out superstars every other draft
Personally I have no problem dealing prospects.

The problem is the ones the team and the fans are most likely willing to give up are also the ones who are less likely to be coveted by other teams.

The other thing to keep in mind is there is no mythical consensus among NHL talent evaluators about our prospects, or any other team's; it's not like an NHL team is going to consult the HF prospect rankings to decide who to trade for. So who gets dealt and for what is obviously highly dependent on the other team and how they evaluate prospects. It's the same thing that happens at the draft and how posters on here (the board in general, not Wings' fans specifically) are always shocked when the draft doesn't go "chalk" (i.e. according to some average ranking based on the draft prognostication sites or something).

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04-02-2013, 09:12 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Yeah, that seems to be really idiotic move.

Even 1 million could do a big difference. That takes at least 50% away of his overpayment or even more. Bouwmeester for 5.67 million is a great deal.

Maybe nobody hasn't told for Feaster what you can do with the new CBA.
Is it possible that he is that bad??

I mean he signed O'reilly and would have lost him to waivers!

Maybe he literally does not know about holding onto salary!?

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04-02-2013, 09:14 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
Is it possible that he is that bad??

I mean he signed O'reilly and would have lost him to waivers!

Maybe he literally does not know about holding onto salary!?
If it was your average GM I would say no way, but the amount of questional moves, small(like this) or big(like O'Reilly) this man makes lately has me wondering.

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04-02-2013, 09:18 AM
  #162
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If it was your average GM I would say no way, but the amount of questional moves, small(like this) or big(like O'Reilly) this man makes lately has me wondering.
if KH wanted to make a bold/great/good trade, trading with feaster would have been the easiest way to go about it

calgary is in a scorched earth policy mode right now

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04-02-2013, 09:19 AM
  #163
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I understand that Kenny didn't want to give 2013 1st.

But from the looks of it, we could have worked around it.

2014 1st, Jensen, Paterson and Pulkkinen/Quine/what have you would have been better package imo. Esp. considering that Detroit is out of conference next year.

JBow isn't ideal but he would have been best defender on Detroit blueline imo.

I think he's going to look great in St. Louis next to A-Pie. Scary good. Well, out of division next year.

I think this is similar in Semin case. When he gets change of scenery and is actually put in situation to succeed, he will be good. I don't think he will be as good as Semin has been but much better than what his reputation is claiming. His legit top pairing D, not good enough to carry the team but he could have been great with Kronner or E if you want to balance it a bit.

JBow wouldn't have been just a rental. I think his got at least 5 years in him or so.

JBow faced the toughtest competition in Calgary, with low off. zone starts. He didn't excel but didn't get much help. Corsi numbers aren't good but that's given when one looks at Calgary's C depth.

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04-02-2013, 09:23 AM
  #164
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not sure if believing in witchcraft is the best way to go about building a team, as otherwise I wouldnt want jarome Iginla and his never winning a stanely cup curse on my team....
yeah, it was said tongue-in-cheek.
just not convinced that he is what we need.

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04-02-2013, 09:25 AM
  #165
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Going after them and getting them are two different things.
Right. So why does Holland need to decide on a strategy. Seems to me like he has one.

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04-02-2013, 09:27 AM
  #166
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JBo isn't awesome, he's just a top 20 defender. That's you right now. That's what you're saying without realizing it.

I know you hate Kronwall, but put the older Nick on the trade market and you'll get way more interest than JBo got. And it's not a Swedish conspiracy... or is it?
It is a Swedish conspiracy.

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04-02-2013, 09:27 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by InjuredChoker View Post
I understand that Kenny didn't want to give 2013 1st.

But from the looks of it, we could have worked around it.

2014 1st, Jensen, Paterson and Pulkkinen/Quine/what have you would have been better package imo. Esp. considering that Detroit is out of conference next year.

JBow isn't ideal but he would have been best defender on Detroit blueline imo.

I think he's going to look great in St. Louis next to A-Pie. Scary good. Well, out of division next year.

I think this is similar in Semin case. When he gets change of scenery and is actually put in situation to succeed, he will be good. I don't think he will be as good as Semin has been but much better than what his reputation is claiming. His legit top pairing D, not good enough to carry the team but he could have been great with Kronner or E if you want to balance it a bit.

JBow wouldn't have been just a rental. I think his got at least 5 years in him or so.

JBow faced the toughtest competition in Calgary, with low off. zone starts. He didn't excel but didn't get much help. Corsi numbers aren't good but that's given when one looks at Calgary's C depth.
BINGO

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04-02-2013, 09:28 AM
  #168
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i agree and likewise too many people in these threads adopt the HF board mentality of believing all our prospects will turn into studs(when likely at best one might) and thus overall value them by believing the hype that the big red machince turns out superstars every other draft
Agreed about trading prospects. The amount that turn out to be good or great are so slim. I am all for trading prospects for proven players, even if theyre a bit older.

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04-02-2013, 09:35 AM
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
I am going to post this again because I think it is an important point. Surprised no one noticed it:


Why did Feaster refuse to take some of JBo's salary???

Take on about 2-3 Million of JBo's deal. It is only for 1 year.
This would have been a SIGNIFICANT move, that increases his value.
On the TSN interview Feaster himself said the Salary took alot of teams out of the running.

I mean really... Is the Calgary owner a CHEAP ass??
You just saved Iginla's Salary and JBo's next season.
You are rebuilding.. so you are going to drop to the salary floor.

If his salary is taking out his trade value, take that off the table.
Maximize your return.

JBo at 4 Million per season sounds MUCH MUCH different than JBo at 6.6.

JBo is at worst a "good" defensemen if you don't mention the salary.

I think Calgary should have gotten more. Crap for 4Mil a year for 1 year... where is the risk?

How is it that no team topped this offer?
Take the Salary out of the deal and you get a SIGNIFICANTLY better return. I have no idea why they refused to take some salary... they are going to shed a crap load of salary when 1-2 more names leave town today and tommorow (Kipper etc)
The salary is completely irrelevant this season. So we're basically talking one season over payment for a legit top pairing dman, which is obviously our biggest need. Plus it would force Holland to waive/trade Quincey. We've taken runs at two legit #1 dmen and come up empty. Suter is a legit Norris candidate and Bouwmeester will do very well in St Louis. When is another #1 going to be available to Detroit? Odds are it will be Sproul or Backman in 5 years or so.

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04-02-2013, 09:41 AM
  #170
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Does anyone have a real comparison of what the prospects the Blues gave up would be the Red Wings equivalent?

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04-02-2013, 09:44 AM
  #171
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Does anyone have a real comparison of what the prospects the Blues gave up would be the Red Wings equivalent?
Cundari 6.0C, Marchenko equivalent.
Berra, a Daniel Larsson equivalent is probably fair. NHL backup potential at best.

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04-02-2013, 10:03 AM
  #172
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Does anyone have a real comparison of what the prospects the Blues gave up would be the Red Wings equivalent?
Well if its a small D-man with some skill and a goalie that has a tiny amount of upside then:

McCollum and Adam Almquist (small skilled defender)

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04-02-2013, 10:03 AM
  #173
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Right. So why does Holland need to decide on a strategy. Seems to me like he has one.
Are you sure? If his strategy is a buyer as you suggest, he has completely failed at it for years now.

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04-02-2013, 10:17 AM
  #174
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Are you sure? If his strategy is a buyer as you suggest, he has completely failed at it for years now.
his policy is to do as his scouts and managment staff tell him on draft day and draft who he is told to and otherwise sign/trade for crappy bottom feeders

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04-02-2013, 10:39 AM
  #175
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Cundari 6.0C, Marchenko equivalent.
Berra, a Daniel Larsson equivalent is probably fair. NHL backup potential at best.

Well Berra has a 50/50 chance to be either a fair NHL backup or the next Fasth. If he brings his strongest game he is stronger than Hiller (just to compare to another swiss goaltender), with the advantage that he ain't small, but still quick.

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