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In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) XXXV

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Old
05-06-2013, 05:05 PM
  #951
chet1926
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I don't see what people are complaining about with Barrie and Elliott. Lets say both are average defensively and both hit approximately 40pts. The throw in EJ who is probably capable of 30pts, and then also throw in Seimens who hopefully will become a Adam Foote type shutdown physical guy, and then assuming we draft Seth Jones its tough to judge what his offensive abilities will be but 40-50+ pts doesn't see unrealistic, I'd say that is one hell of a defensive core especially if you add in Hejda or another vet stay at home type. In 2 to 3 years the Avs could easily have one of the top 5 defenses in the entire league.

Just because Elliott and Barrie aren't going to be perennial Norris candidates doesn't make them worthless, we just need to be realistic with what their potential is. To say Elliott is going to be a shutdown 60pts+ # 1Dman is unrealistic but a 40pts #4 or #5 guy is realistic. Barrie isn't a #1 either, his defense is better than Elliott's but his offense isn't as strong as Elliott's so realistically Barrie is probably a #3 or #4 with 35pts capability. But this is ok when you have guys that can fill other roles.

In 2 years I could probably see a depth chart of:
#1 Jones (assuming we draft him)
#2 EJ
#3 Barrie
#4 Seimens
#5 Elliott
#6 tough to say as it could be someone we have now or maybe a prospect that has yet to break through who knows

but 1-5 looks pretty solid and no one looks to be out of place.

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Old
05-06-2013, 05:17 PM
  #952
henchman24
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Originally Posted by hoserthehorrible View Post
Facts are good.

The fact is Barrie has two goals and 13 points in 42 NHL games over his first two years in the league. Not bad but not exactly ripping the league up offensively either. A very small sample size to be sure but that projects out to less that 26 points in a full 82 game season. He will make progress but expecting Barrie to be one of the elite offensive defensemen in the league is wishful thinking (that's an opinion of course and not a fact).

Another fact is that Elliott has five goals and 17 points in 52 games in his first two seasons in the league and unfortunately he actually digressed this year. I certainly think he'll get better and will improve over time however I don't see Elliott becoming one of the elite offensive defensemen in the league either (another opinion and not a fact).
Let's ignore that Barrie was on a 33 point pace this season as a rookie while being moved in and out of the lineup, and that Elliott had injury issues and was jerked around all season.

Yandle - 07-08 43 games 5g 7a 12p (~23 point pace)
Karlsson - 09-10 60 games 5g 21a 26p (~36 point pace)
Keith - 05-06 81 games 9g 12a 21p
Letang - 07-08 63 games 6g 11a 17p (~22 point pace)

Using a small sample size at the very beginning of a defensemen's career is a very bad way to project their future production.

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Old
05-06-2013, 05:26 PM
  #953
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Originally Posted by hoserthehorrible View Post
Stir this place up? I'm not sure what that's all about. This is a discussion board and I thought a few of us were discussing the potential of Barrie and Elliott. I don't see any personal attacks or "rough" play by anyone.

I'm saying that most folks are over rating Barrie and Elliott and I'm trying to show some specifics of why I believe that is the case. I believe they will be OK offensive defensemen but nothing all that special (hence the Norris reference) and they will both be relatively weak defensively.
By comparing their current play to what it takes to win a Norris? Oh, I get it now.


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05-06-2013, 05:27 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
Let's ignore that Barrie was on a 33 point pace this season as a rookie while being moved in and out of the lineup, and that Elliott had injury issues and was jerked around all season.

Yandle - 07-08 43 games 5g 7a 12p (~23 point pace)
Karlsson - 09-10 60 games 5g 21a 26p (~36 point pace)
Keith - 05-06 81 games 9g 12a 21p
Letang - 07-08 63 games 6g 11a 17p (~22 point pace)

Using a small sample size at the very beginning of a defensemen's career is a very bad way to project their future production.
You may have overlooked it but I did say that the sample size was small.

You aren't hinting that Barrie and Elliott are going to be the next Yandle, Karlsson, Keith or Letang are you? If so then you are making my point for me.... Barrie and Elliott are being overhyped on HFBoards.

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05-06-2013, 05:35 PM
  #955
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Originally Posted by Renegade Stylings View Post
By comparing their current play to what it takes to win a Norris? Oh, I get it now.

I'm not projecting either of them to be Norris caliber offensive defensemen.. others have done that.

I'm saying Barrie and Elliott have some offensive talent but nothing all that special and they are both relatively weak defensively. Their defensive shortcomings might improve some but I don't see them ever being capable of being shutdown dsefensemen. They simply don't have the tools to get there.

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05-06-2013, 05:35 PM
  #956
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Originally Posted by hoserthehorrible View Post
You may have overlooked it but I did say that the sample size was small.

You aren't hinting that Barrie and Elliott are going to be the next Yandle, Karlsson, Keith or Letang are you? If so then you are making my point for me.... Barrie and Elliott are being overhyped on HFBoards.
All I am saying is that you can take the first ~50 games of stats and say well this is who they are. Defensemen simply take time to develop and you get a much better idea of who they are by evaluating their talent, or if you can't evaluate talent wait until their 3rd or 4th year in the NHL as that will be likely what they are.

I personally think Barrie is pretty safe to develop into a solid #3 defensemen that is good for 35-45 points a season, but his ceiling probably isn't much higher than that. Elliott can go two ways, either he is a bottom pairing PMD that puts up 25-35 points with some PP time, but a liability in his own zone and will never get more than 15-17 minutes a game because of it... or he rounds out his defensive game (and become average in that area) to get more minutes and become a 45-55 point #2/3 defensemen with 10-15 goals.

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05-06-2013, 05:37 PM
  #957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoserthehorrible View Post
I'm not projecting either of them to be Norris caliber offensive defensemen.. others have done that.

I'm saying Barrie and Elliott have some offensive talent but nothing all that special and they are both relatively weak defensively. Their defensive shortcomings might improve some but I don't see them ever being capable of being shutdown dsefensemen. They simply don't have the tools to get there.
Well no kidding. I never even said they did, anyway.

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Old
05-06-2013, 05:38 PM
  #958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoserthehorrible View Post
I'm not projecting either of them to be Norris caliber offensive defensemen.. others have done that.

I'm saying Barrie and Elliott have some offensive talent but nothing all that special and they are both relatively weak defensively. Their defensive shortcomings might improve some but I don't see them ever being capable of being shutdown dsefensemen. They simply don't have the tools to get there.
Nobody is projecting that....

Neither will be a shutdown defensemen, and nobody expects them to. They were not drafted as Ryan O'Byrne replacements. As long as they are average in that area, everybody will be thrilled.

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Old
05-06-2013, 05:44 PM
  #959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoserthehorrible View Post
You may have overlooked it but I did say that the sample size was small.

You aren't hinting that Barrie and Elliott are going to be the next Yandle, Karlsson, Keith or Letang are you? If so then you are making my point for me.... Barrie and Elliott are being overhyped on HFBoards.
Quite a jump on your part there.

You realize that Yandle, Keith, and Letang weren't Yandle, Keith, and Letang as rookies, right? They made mistakes, they looked bad, but more importantly grew and matured in their games over the course of a couple years. But apparently Barrie and Elliott can't do that, they've peaked as rookies and whatever mistake that happened to make one time will happen forever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoserthehorrible View Post
I'm not projecting either of them to be Norris caliber offensive defensemen.. others have done that.

I'm saying Barrie and Elliott have some offensive talent but nothing all that special and they are both relatively weak defensively. Their defensive shortcomings might improve some but I don't see them ever being capable of being shutdown dsefensemen. They simply don't have the tools to get there.
You are literally the only one bringing up the Norris here.

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Old
05-06-2013, 06:34 PM
  #960
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
All I am saying is that you can take the first ~50 games of stats and say well this is who they are. Defensemen simply take time to develop and you get a much better idea of who they are by evaluating their talent, or if you can't evaluate talent wait until their 3rd or 4th year in the NHL as that will be likely what they are.

I personally think Barrie is pretty safe to develop into a solid #3 defensemen that is good for 35-45 points a season, but his ceiling probably isn't much higher than that. Elliott can go two ways, either he is a bottom pairing PMD that puts up 25-35 points with some PP time, but a liability in his own zone and will never get more than 15-17 minutes a game because of it... or he rounds out his defensive game (and become average in that area) to get more minutes and become a 45-55 point #2/3 defensemen with 10-15 goals.
You brought the notion of "facts" into this conversation. I simply stated the facts and as we have both said the facts are based off of a small sample size. Facts really have nothing to do with projecting what a player may turn out to be. Projections are mostly based on opinions and not really facts but you wanted to go to the facts.

You can project Barrie or Elliott to be whatever you'd like but in my opinion I think they are both being over-hyped by a lot of people on HFBoards. I see them to be OK offensively but nothing special and a bit below average defensively.

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Old
05-06-2013, 06:45 PM
  #961
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Originally Posted by Renegade Stylings View Post
Well no kidding. I never even said they did, anyway.
OK, glad you got that off your chest. Relax, you'll likely feel better.

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Old
05-06-2013, 06:50 PM
  #962
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoserthehorrible View Post
Another fact is that Elliott has five goals and 17 points in 52 games in his first two seasons in the league and unfortunately he actually digressed this year. I certainly think he'll get better and will improve over time however I don't see Elliott becoming one of the elite offensive defensemen in the league either (another opinion and not a fact).
I'm buzzed and have no comment except that I really enjoy when one of grossly misuses a word as above.

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Old
05-06-2013, 09:26 PM
  #963
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I'm buzzed and have no comment except that I really enjoy when one of grossly misuses a word as above.
Good catch. Regress would probably have been better although digress almost works

Digress: "leave the main subject temporarily in speech or writing"

You know what else is funny? When someone corrects another person's English but screws up their own sentence in the process. Now that's damn near priceless!


Last edited by hoserthehorrible: 05-06-2013 at 09:38 PM.
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Old
05-07-2013, 12:06 AM
  #964
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Originally Posted by hoserthehorrible View Post
Good catch. Regress would probably have been better although digress almost works

Digress: "leave the main subject temporarily in speech or writing"

You know what else is funny? When someone corrects another person's English but screws up their own sentence in the process. Now that's damn near priceless!
I'm sure I won't remember texting these in the morning

what would elliott digressing be? I have great images of him forgoing chirping during a scrum to recite some verses from Shakespeare

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Old
05-08-2013, 12:47 PM
  #965
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An interesting name is getting floated out on the trade market... Loui Eriksson. It is rumored that the Stars want a #1C for him. Maybe a Stastny + deal to get Loui Eriksson?

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05-08-2013, 12:55 PM
  #966
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Why are Stars losing always their #1 center?

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Old
05-08-2013, 12:56 PM
  #967
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
An interesting name is getting floated out on the trade market... Loui Eriksson. It is rumored that the Stars want a #1C for him. Maybe a Stastny + deal to get Loui Eriksson?
Paulie would have to be signed to a reasonable extension to fetch Loui. Loui would be such a great addition to our forwards unit.

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05-08-2013, 12:59 PM
  #968
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Paulie would have to be signed to a reasonable extension to fetch Loui. Loui would be such a great addition to our forwards unit.
I would think that the assumption would be that Stastny and the Stars have already figured that out.

IMO The + would probably have to be a pretty solid piece like our 2nd or Elliott to get the deal done.

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05-08-2013, 01:38 PM
  #969
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I would think that the assumption would be that Stastny and the Stars have already figured that out.

IMO The + would probably have to be a pretty solid piece like our 2nd or Elliott to get the deal done.
I'd rather give our second round pick than Elliott.

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05-08-2013, 02:02 PM
  #970
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I would think that the assumption would be that Stastny and the Stars have already figured that out.

IMO The + would probably have to be a pretty solid piece like our 2nd or Elliott to get the deal done.

You could do something like, Stastny + 2013 3rd + a conditional top 5 protected 2014 1st if Stastny does not re-sign. Or even Stastny + Sgarbossa. There is possibilities there at least that wouldn't kill us down the road.

I'm pretty sure their defensive prospects are pretty good, so I'd imagine they would want a forward prospect.

I think the most I'd do personally would be Stastny + Sgarbossa + 2013 2nd. Stastny + Barrie/Elliott would be hard to stomach after Stastny turns back into a PPG center, and one Barrie/Elliott turn into a consistent top 4 offensive defender.

Either one of Eriksson or Vanek would be a serious pickup this summer though. (I think we could get Vanek without Stastny though)

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05-08-2013, 02:19 PM
  #971
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Why are Stars losing always their #1 center?
Eriksson is a winger.

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05-08-2013, 02:22 PM
  #972
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So... Craig Smith? Phil Housley?

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05-08-2013, 02:23 PM
  #973
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So... Craig Smith? Phil Housley?
Yes please. David Moss as well.

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05-08-2013, 02:36 PM
  #974
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So... Craig Smith? Phil Housley?
We don't need Housley, we just need someone capable of rational thought, because giving your point men better shooting lanes is pretty much a thing every sane coach should try to do.

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05-08-2013, 03:19 PM
  #975
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You can't argue with his results, but some of Housley's decisions at the WJC were kind of perplexing. He basically rolled all 4 lines. Galchenyuk was barely playing 15 minutes a game, if I recall. I'd want to see how Housley works with professionals before seriously considering him.

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