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Gretzky, Lemieux and Crosby comparables

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Old
04-10-2013, 05:11 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
.

Sure having Malkin on the Pens helps them as a team as it does Sid but in what context?

Sid when compared to guys like Jagr and even Wayne and Mario ahs had less advantageous line mate situations and team mates and general overall support situations so far in his 1st 8 years.

Just to be clear though it's Sid driving the bus in Pittsburgh just like Mario always did and Wayne for his teams as well.
Alright, but let's look at this:

1987-'88 Pens
Lemieux 168 points
Quinn 79
Cunneyworth 74
Coffey 67 (46 games)

The whole idea that a player has better linemates than others is overblown I think. A truly great player will produce regardless of who is on his team. He will elevate the players around him, and not the other way around. Lemieux is clearly a guy who didn't need star teammates. Because he produced with a bad to mediocre core and a great core. It didn't matter. So this talk about Sid not having the teammates Mario had is irrelevant when it comes to point totals in my opinion. You keep bringing it up but I keep saying just how unecessary it is. John Leclair for example was a guy who needed star linemates. Steve Shutt. Not Crosby and definitely not Lemieux. So I don't know why it is an issue.

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04-10-2013, 07:55 PM
  #152
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Alright, but let's look at this:

1987-'88 Pens
Lemieux 168 points
Quinn 79
Cunneyworth 74
Coffey 67 (46 games)

The whole idea that a player has better linemates than others is overblown I think. A truly great player will produce regardless of who is on his team. He will elevate the players around him, and not the other way around. Lemieux is clearly a guy who didn't need star teammates. Because he produced with a bad to mediocre core and a great core. It didn't matter. So this talk about Sid not having the teammates Mario had is irrelevant when it comes to point totals in my opinion. You keep bringing it up but I keep saying just how unecessary it is. John Leclair for example was a guy who needed star linemates. Steve Shutt. Not Crosby and definitely not Lemieux. So I don't know why it is an issue.
It probably is a bit overblown but after the absolute elites it probably matters more.

Where that line is though is debatable. I think for guys like Bossy and Kurri, probably more, had extremely great centers and circumstances to play in.

The larger factor is the league wide ability to score goals in or if the harder the league is to score in.

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04-11-2013, 04:13 PM
  #153
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It probably is a bit overblown but after the absolute elites it probably matters more.

Where that line is though is debatable. I think for guys like Bossy and Kurri, probably more, had extremely great centers and circumstances to play in.

The larger factor is the league wide ability to score goals in or if the harder the league is to score in.
I think even Wayne Gretzky had a (slight) drop in his numbers once Paul Coffey left town. It is that, and a combination that it is nearly impossible to maintain 200 point seasons. They have to end some time. So having skilled linemates does help a bit, but there is more to the story. Bossy had great seasons in 1985 and 1986. Trottier was injured a lot in 1985 if I recall and Brent Sutter was his centre. He still had 118 points. In 1986 he has 123 and Trottier had already started his decline from an offensive standpoint. Plus there are other years where Bossy outproduces Trottier by a large degree. So how much does it really matter in the long run?

Crosby has had arguably the second best player in the NHL on his team since 2006. How has he been at any sort of disadvantage here? I don't see it.

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04-11-2013, 07:52 PM
  #154
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I think even Wayne Gretzky had a (slight) drop in his numbers once Paul Coffey left town. It is that, and a combination that it is nearly impossible to maintain 200 point seasons. They have to end some time. So having skilled linemates does help a bit, but there is more to the story. Bossy had great seasons in 1985 and 1986. Trottier was injured a lot in 1985 if I recall and Brent Sutter was his centre. He still had 118 points. In 1986 he has 123 and Trottier had already started his decline from an offensive standpoint. Plus there are other years where Bossy outproduces Trottier by a large degree. So how much does it really matter in the long run?
We saw what bossy did without Trotts so that's why I made the distinction between him and Kurri.



Quote:
Crosby has had arguably the second best player in the NHL on his team since 2006. How has he been at any sort of disadvantage here? I don't see it.
No one is saying that having Malkin on his team is a disadvantage though. Others tried to make Malkin a distraction form Sid's actual line mates though and we also have 3 disticnt full or partial seasons of elite production form Sid without Malkin being much of a factor.

His rookie season, 11 and this year.

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04-11-2013, 09:00 PM
  #155
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Maybe you weren't trying to say that Malkin was a better player than Sid but you also weren't talking about the supporting cast either.

If you read more carefully, I'm pretty consistent in talking about line mates and teammates overall not just the next best player on the team when I talk about supporting cast.
Maybe you should be a bit more consistent with the language you choose then. A strong supporting cast doesn't necessarily equal linemates. You have continually made the argument that Corsby has had the worst supporting casts/linemates and even though Malkin isn't Crosby's primary linemate doesn't negate the fact that he is one of the top 3 players in the league over both of their careers.

Personally I think you're grasping with this line of reasoning tbh. Malkin is an Art Ross winner/ calder winner/ conn smythe winner. Opposition having to key in on two potential Art Ross winners is difficult in the best of times, to me, Crosby is clearly the better player, but that doesn't mean that there are no advantages by having malkin as a teammate whether they play on the same line or not.

The idea that Sid hasn''t had much help or has the worst supporting cast isn't a road I think you should be travelling down. He doesn't need absurd claims like these to prop him up.

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04-11-2013, 09:06 PM
  #156
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We saw what bossy did without Trotts so that's why I made the distinction between him and Kurri.





No one is saying that having Malkin on his team is a disadvantage though. Others tried to make Malkin a distraction form Sid's actual line mates though and we also have 3 disticnt full or partial seasons of elite production form Sid without Malkin being much of a factor.

His rookie season, 11 and this year.
You brought up this silly argument, no one else. No one tried to make Malkin a distraction as much as you tried to ignore his impact or benefits Sid may gain from having a Art Ross winner as a teammate.

You want to talk about being at a disadvantage for teammates, look no further than Stevie Y.

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04-11-2013, 10:50 PM
  #157
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Maybe you should be a bit more consistent with the language you choose then. A strong supporting cast doesn't necessarily equal linemates. You have continually made the argument that Corsby has had the worst supporting casts/linemates and even though Malkin isn't Crosby's primary linemate doesn't negate the fact that he is one of the top 3 players in the league over both of their careers.

Personally I think you're grasping with this line of reasoning tbh. Malkin is an Art Ross winner/ calder winner/ conn smythe winner. Opposition having to key in on two potential Art Ross winners is difficult in the best of times, to me, Crosby is clearly the better player, but that doesn't mean that there are no advantages by having malkin as a teammate whether they play on the same line or not.

The idea that Sid hasn''t had much help or has the worst supporting cast isn't a road I think you should be travelling down. He doesn't need absurd claims like these to prop him up.
Linemates and supporting cast are 2 different things. a couple of posters wanted to focus on Malkin and forget about line mates.

Sorry but context matters.

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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
You brought up this silly argument, no one else. No one tried to make Malkin a distraction as much as you tried to ignore his impact or benefits Sid may gain from having a Art Ross winner as a teammate.

You want to talk about being at a disadvantage for teammates, look no further than Stevie Y.
I'm really not sure what people are talking about when they talk about being at a disadvantage for teammates with Stevie Y. It's not like he played his entire career on lousy team is it? Big pictures tell us more than small ones.

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04-12-2013, 12:37 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Linemates and supporting cast are 2 different things. a couple of posters wanted to focus on Malkin and forget about line mates.

Sorry but context matters.



I'm really not sure what people are talking about when they talk about being at a disadvantage for teammates with Stevie Y. It's not like he played his entire career on lousy team is it? Big pictures tell us more than small ones.
During his prime Stevie played on some crappy teams with an overall crappy supporting cast.

I realize supporting cast is different from linemates, however, it was you who argued Sid had the worst "supporting cast", not me. He doesn't even have the worst linemates either. I think you put way too much weight into these non sense things, great players score regardless of linemates, Sid is a great player, no one argued otherwise, he is no Wayne Gretzky or Mario Lemieux though. Not even close

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04-12-2013, 06:01 PM
  #159
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During his prime Stevie played on some crappy teams with an overall crappy supporting cast.
Eva Unit Zero who is really familiar with the Red Wings would have more to say about that.

That being said the Red wings weren't as bad as people make them out to be after Demers came onto the scene in 87-88

Quote:
I realize supporting cast is different from linemates, however, it was you who argued Sid had the worst "supporting cast", not me. He doesn't even have the worst linemates either.
So for overall in their careers you think Wayne, Mario, Jagr had worse line mates than Sid?


Quote:
I think you put way too much weight into these non sense things, great players score regardless of linemates, Sid is a great player, no one argued otherwise, he is no Wayne Gretzky or Mario Lemieux though. Not even close
Era holds more weight and importance on scoring levels than line mates but it's folly not to think that line mates matter. If they didn't coaches would just throw guys out there more randomly don't you think?

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04-12-2013, 06:26 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Eva Unit Zero who is really familiar with the Red Wings would have more to say about that.

That being said the Red wings weren't as bad as people make them out to be after Demers came onto the scene in 87-88



So for overall in their careers you think Wayne, Mario, Jagr had worse line mates than Sid?




Era holds more weight and importance on scoring levels than line mates but it's folly not to think that line mates matter. If they didn't coaches would just throw guys out there more randomly don't you think?
I'm not going into the Gretzky-Lemieux linemates debate but Jagr did at different times in his career have worse linemates and teammates than Crosby.

Case in point 1998-99, 1999-00 and 2005-06-2007-08.

Of all those teams Jagr played on, Straka was the only player that was a constant and he was a very good hockey player that put up near PPG numbers primarily due to playing with Jagr. Those seasons are some of Jagr's best of his career and he usually outscored his teammates by 30-45 Pts.

In 1999-00 in just 63 games (96 Pts) Jagr outscored Kovalev who played all 82 games (66 Pts) by 19 games. Kovalev's numbers probaly go up if Jagr plays all 82 games but Jagr would have most likely beaten his nearest teammate by 50-60 Pts which would be entering Lemieux and Gretzky like domination. Heck that season in his first 39 games (71 Pts), he already had Kovalev beaten.

You raise me Straka and I raise you Malkin. Crosby's best season so far was 2006-07, that season Malkin won the Calder and was a PPG player, the same season where Crosby scored more points on the powerplay than at evenstrength.

As already discussed, having Malkin on his team on the powerplay and playing on a different line at evenstrength helps Crosby because they can spread the offense out and it wouldn't allow opposing teams to key in on Crosby's line only, they have to spread the coverage on them. This is sort of what Jagr and Lemieux enjoyed in 1995-96 when the two best players in the NHL played on two different lines. It is the same type of thing you saw with Fedorov/ Yzerman and Sakic/ Forsberg.

Jagr (on all the non-Lemieux teams) was always the main opponent's target when it came to shadowing jobs, shutdown attempts and having the best defensemen and defensive minded forwards playing head to head with Jagr's line. Yet with all this scrutiny on him by opposing defenses, Jagr still came away with Art Ross trophies. Heck even at age 41, playing on a very deep Boston team, Jagr is still seeing the opposing teams' best defense.

Lemieux and Gretzky dominated in ways that Jagr barely ever came close to but I truly feel that Jagr is the player that could carry really weak teams better than any other player in NHL history. I think this part was sort of Jagr's demise though in terms of never having a signature playoff run where he was the "man" because he enjoyed playing with average to good players that would defer to him on the ice and maybe in the end his teams were not good enough to win Cups which can be indirectly be attributed to him. He had greater individual success than any other player of his era but he was lacking in terms of team success.

I still think that the 1999-00 playoffs were the year Jagr could have won a Cup if not for his reoccurring groin injuries. He was playing like a man possessed all season long and had carried his underdog team to 3-1 lead over the heavily favored Flyers before the injuries; 1999-00 Jagr is the most dominant he ever played in his career. That is a level that Crosby has yet to reach.


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04-12-2013, 06:27 PM
  #161
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Eva Unit Zero who is really familiar with the Red Wings would have more to say about that.

That being said the Red wings weren't as bad as people make them out to be after Demers came onto the scene in 87-88



So for overall in their careers you think Wayne, Mario, Jagr had worse line mates than Sid?




Era holds more weight and importance on scoring levels than line mates but it's folly not to think that line mates matter. If they didn't coaches would just throw guys out there more randomly don't you think?

Your last point is another foolish post, coaches throw combinations together to give their team the best chance to win, not to pad the stats of the outliers. The outliers do it regardless.

I don't think Sid is in the class of Mario/Gretzky or Jagr, but if you were comparing him to a prime Stevie, or Even a prime sakic, who scored 102 points on a team with a grand total of 12 wins on the season. To argue sid has had to play with the likes of that is beyond foolish.

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04-12-2013, 07:26 PM
  #162
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No one is saying that having Malkin on his team is a disadvantage though. Others tried to make Malkin a distraction form Sid's actual line mates though and we also have 3 disticnt full or partial seasons of elite production form Sid without Malkin being much of a factor.

His rookie season, 11 and this year.
Sid DOESN'T need charity. I will say that for sure. In fact, no great player of his caliber needs charity. So if all things are considered equal why has there been so much more seperation with Lemieux and his best teammate and Lemieux and the rest of the league? There is a far bigger gap with that than we have seen Crosby create. I am also taking into account a better all around game for Sid.

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04-13-2013, 03:24 AM
  #163
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This should also be interesting for Crosby fans to have a look at. The fact that Ovechkin is mentioned in the video is important. Before his recent slump (he's looking more and more like the Ovechkin of old lately), Ovechkin was the clear cut best player in the NHL, not Crosby.
Ovechkin can maybe get more goals, but Crosby is by far the best player in the NHL if you look at point totals. Ovechkin cant come close. For this reason, Crosby will always be better than Ovechkin and the best player in the modern era.

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04-13-2013, 07:19 AM
  #164
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Ovechkin can maybe get more goals, but Crosby is by far the best player in the NHL if you look at point totals. Ovechkin cant come close. For this reason, Crosby will always be better than Ovechkin and the best player in the modern era.
Can't come close eh?

Is that Why after their first 5 years Ovy was ahead? or is still ahead? Sid is the better point getter on average, but when you play 22 games, 39 games, 42 games it's easier to keep those numbers high. I'm not knocking Sid here, but to say Ovy can't come close is revisionism.

Crosby is ahead in ppg by a fair margin, but he hasn't played an entire season in a long, long time, I'm not saying he won't or isn't likely to maintain it, but I'd prefer to see it happen before I credit him with doing something he hasn't done yet. When they were both at their bests and playing entire seasons, Ovy was every bit as dominate as Sid, perhaps even moreso.

The idea that Sid has separated himself so far from the pack in the last 3 years whilst only playing a total of 99 games is a bit foolish. He has looked dominate during this time frame for sure, but if he can't maintain his health, then he will go down in the history books as another what if/what should have been types. You don't get rewarded for missing time, until he does this over a season or two, he hasn't accomplished some great feat. Prior to the injuries him and ovy were basically even, slight edge to ovy imho.

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04-13-2013, 08:50 AM
  #165
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Is that Why after their first 5 years Ovy was ahead? or is still ahead? Sid is the better point getter on average, but when you play 22 games, 39 games, 42 games it's easier to keep those numbers high. I'm not knocking Sid here, but to say Ovy can't come close is revisionism.
If the timing is totally right for three straight seasons yes. I guess i wont have to bring up how for example Stamkos, but also Ovechkin and yes Crosby, dont produce the same over all 82 games?

I understand that people wants to see Crosby dominate at a similar rate for a whole season before they view it as certain, but in my opinion he only need to stay healthy to do so.

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04-13-2013, 09:00 AM
  #166
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If the timing is totally right for three stright seasons yes. I guess i wont have to bring up how for example Stamkos, but also Ovechkin and yes Crosby, dont produce the same over all 82 games?
So far history has proven that Crosby's peak output over a full season was in 2006-07 and since then he hasn't scored more than 109 Pts.

Scoring at the pace he's scored in the last 99 games stretched out over 3 seasons is hardly an indication of this being his actual output. As mentioned before, many players have played through injuries.

Crosby is usually 100% when he's playing. In fact take for example Patrice Bergeron, the guy just recently suffered his 4th concussion and is set to play again this weekend. I'm not debating how severe Crosby's concussion symptoms really were but the matter of the fact is that he sat out almost a whole year to heal up and when he came back he didn't have any of the fatigue issues or other injury issues that most players have to contend with over a full season.

This is the type of thing Forsberg benefited from. Back in 2001-02, he sat out the entire regular season to heal up and then had a great playoff run and most claim that this a great example of how superior he was to other players when it came time for the playoffs.

Let a prime Jagr rest his ailments all season long and then start in the playoffs, I'm pretty sure he could have averaged over 1.50 PPG in the playoffs even during a long stretch.

I'm sorry but Crosby has been handled like a China porcelain so far in his career and he's got pretty much everything catered to him. Has he had a bad stretch of unlucky run ins with freak accidents the last 4 years? Sure but we should take his output over the last 3 seasons (99 games) with a grain of salt.

If he can maintain a PPG over 1.50 for a full season (82 games in the same season) then I'll consider myself a believer. Until then, lets wait for history to play itself out.


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04-13-2013, 09:12 AM
  #167
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Scoring at the pace he's scored in the last 99 games stretched out over 3 seasons is hardly an indication of this being his actual output. As mentioned before, many players have played through injuries.
Do you remember how he started the 2010-11 season, and how he started this season? He caught fire after a number of games, and as i said, these fluctuations will occur at any given moment but even out, and my belief is that if he can stay healthy he will be in the neighbourhood in points per game as these last three seasons. People can have another opinion, but it's not like he did'nt have dips these last three seasons. If people call that luck, sure, go right ahead.

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04-13-2013, 10:04 AM
  #168
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Ive watched a ton of games from each player. Crosby does zero things better than gretz. Crosby works harder defensively than lemieux did, but other than that mario's skills were more effective in every aspect of the game. So crosby dosn't belong in the conversation.


Crosby is on the yzerman, savard, lafontaine, statsny etc. Shelf....


As for teamates, as long as you have teamates that will at least try to get you the puck when you're open, an offensive powerhouse will take care of the rest. Look no further than the clowns ovechkin has been playing with. After two years of totally inept play they are finally getting the puck in his hands when he's open with some consistency. The results speak for themselves.

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04-13-2013, 12:06 PM
  #169
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Ive watched a ton of games from each player. Crosby does zero things better than gretz. Crosby works harder defensively than lemieux did, but other than that mario's skills were more effective in every aspect of the game. So crosby dosn't belong in the conversation.
I think people confuse visible effort and effectiveness.

Crosby is the kid who studies all night and on weekends to squeak out an A- on his tests, then does extra credit or pleads with his teacher to give him a better grade. Half the time he gets sick during the semester and misses exams, so he often gets a substantially reduced grade or an incomplete.

Lemieux was the guy who often didn't even show up for class, rarely studied, barely slept, and showed up hungover, then aced the test no problem. He set the curve to such a degree, that even if he missed a test or two, almost no one could match his scores, so he still got an A/A+.

Gretzky showed up to class and always knew exactly for which questions to study, so spent a minimal amount of time studying to get his A+.

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04-13-2013, 01:28 PM
  #170
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I think people confuse visible effort and effectiveness.

Crosby is the kid who studies all night and on weekends to squeak out an A- on his tests, then does extra credit or pleads with his teacher to give him a better grade. Half the time he gets sick during the semester and misses exams, so he often gets a substantially reduced grade or an incomplete.

Lemieux was the guy who often didn't even show up for class, rarely studied, barely slept, and showed up hungover, then aced the test no problem. He set the curve to such a degree, that even if he missed a test or two, almost no one could match his scores, so he still got an A/A+.

Gretzky showed up to class and always knew exactly for which questions to study, so spent a minimal amount of time studying to get his A+.
Pretty good analysis only I would say Gretzky knew exactly what to study for because it seemed like he was the one making up the test in the first place

The Lemieux thing is priceless, especially for for the ones of us that remember the stories of his Big Mac binges, his smoking at least a pack a day and his nights n the town.

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04-13-2013, 01:30 PM
  #171
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Pretty good analysis only I would say Gretzky knew exactly what to study for because it seemed like he was the one making up the test in the first place
In other words, he cheated.

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04-13-2013, 03:27 PM
  #172
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So far history has proven that Crosby's peak output over a full season was in 2006-07 and since then he hasn't scored more than 109 Pts.

Scoring at the pace he's scored in the last 99 games stretched out over 3 seasons is hardly an indication of this being his actual output. As mentioned before, many players have played through injuries.

Crosby is usually 100% when he's playing. In fact take for example Patrice Bergeron, the guy just recently suffered his 4th concussion and is set to play again this weekend. I'm not debating how severe Crosby's concussion symptoms really were but the matter of the fact is that he sat out almost a whole year to heal up and when he came back he didn't have any of the fatigue issues or other injury issues that most players have to contend with over a full season.

This is the type of thing Forsberg benefited from. Back in 2001-02, he sat out the entire regular season to heal up and then had a great playoff run and most claim that this a great example of how superior he was to other players when it came time for the playoffs.

Let a prime Jagr rest his ailments all season long and then start in the playoffs, I'm pretty sure he could have averaged over 1.50 PPG in the playoffs even during a long stretch.

I'm sorry but Crosby has been handled like a China porcelain so far in his career and he's got pretty much everything catered to him. Has he had a bad stretch of unlucky run ins with freak accidents the last 4 years? Sure but we should take his output over the last 3 seasons (99 games) with a grain of salt.

If he can maintain a PPG over 1.50 for a full season (82 games in the same season) then I'll consider myself a believer. Until then, lets wait for history to play itself out.
the backlash against the PPG thing is getting way over blown here.

Playoffs is a huge example why

since 07 Sid's first year in the playoffs as an 19 year old he is the premier player in the NHL plain and simple. No he doesn't have a Conn Smythe but he is playing heavy 5-5 minutes here are the breakdowns between him and Malkin in the playoffs for offensive zone starts.

07 no data but Sid was 3-2-5 even with 20 SOG and 1 more MPG on the ice than Malkin who was 0-4-4- minus 1 with 10 SOG

08 Malkin 55.2 Sid 52.1
09 Malkin 48.9 Sid 47.7
10 Malkin 60.6 Sid 52.4
12 Malkin 74.5 Sid 57.7



http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Since 07, only 13 players have a better than a PPG in the playoffs.

Sid's 1.32 in the playoffs over that time strongly suggests that his regular season average of 1.41 for his career is strongly sustainable over the games missed.

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04-13-2013, 06:22 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
the backlash against the PPG thing is getting way over blown here.

Playoffs is a huge example why

since 07 Sid's first year in the playoffs as an 19 year old he is the premier player in the NHL plain and simple. No he doesn't have a Conn Smythe but he is playing heavy 5-5 minutes here are the breakdowns between him and Malkin in the playoffs for offensive zone starts.

07 no data but Sid was 3-2-5 even with 20 SOG and 1 more MPG on the ice than Malkin who was 0-4-4- minus 1 with 10 SOG

08 Malkin 55.2 Sid 52.1
09 Malkin 48.9 Sid 47.7
10 Malkin 60.6 Sid 52.4
12 Malkin 74.5 Sid 57.7



http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Since 07, only 13 players have a better than a PPG in the playoffs.

Sid's 1.32 in the playoffs over that time strongly suggests that his regular season average of 1.41 for his career is strongly sustainable over the games missed.
So we're down to offensive zone starts now to try and discredit Malkin. What next, Crosby didn't have his Wheaties and malkin did? The playoff sample is so small it's hardy worth mentioning.

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04-13-2013, 08:57 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
So we're down to offensive zone starts now to try and discredit Malkin. What next, Crosby didn't have his Wheaties and malkin did? The playoff sample is so small it's hardy worth mentioning.
Geordie is the best Red Wing of all time period. Does that mean I think all other Red Wings are horrible or that I'm discrediting them?

Seriously give your head a shake, small differences is what separates the great ones or shall we all be nice and say everyone is the same?

If you think Malkin is better fine I really don't care one way or the other but unless you provide some facts and evidence, I'll bring mine as to why Sid stirs the drink in Pittsburgh.

The only thing Malkin has on Sid is health and some of the benefits of playing more healthy seasons.

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04-13-2013, 10:39 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I think people confuse visible effort and effectiveness.

Crosby is the kid who studies all night and on weekends to squeak out an A- on his tests, then does extra credit or pleads with his teacher to give him a better grade. Half the time he gets sick during the semester and misses exams, so he often gets a substantially reduced grade or an incomplete.

Lemieux was the guy who often didn't even show up for class, rarely studied, barely slept, and showed up hungover, then aced the test no problem. He set the curve to such a degree, that even if he missed a test or two, almost no one could match his scores, so he still got an A/A+.

Gretzky showed up to class and always knew exactly for which questions to study, so spent a minimal amount of time studying to get his A+.
A brilliant analysis. True to a word.

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