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Gretzky, Lemieux and Crosby comparables

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Old
04-15-2013, 01:21 AM
  #201
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
REALLY???

Lets do raw ES points first


Now, let's do ES PpG


And before you come back with some BS about the mid 80's. Please keep in mind the exact year the League changed the 4 on 4 rule. I wonder if someone could figure it out from the chart without actually looking it up heh

Now...what were you saying about the numbers CLEARLY showing something or that +/- needs context
you seem to be having a problem with what I'm talking about in my most recent posts. I did a little bit of research and this is waht Overpass has to say on his Adjusted Even-Strength Plus-minus 1968-2008 research which can be found in the by the numbers section on this site.

Here is a link to his study

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=591548

In post #3 Overpass takes an analysis of some of the results and this is the section on Wayne,

Quote:
Gretzkyís career numbers are surprisingly unimpressive. Fourth place isnít bad, but one would expect more from the Great One. However, a season-by-season examination reveals that almost all of his positive value came in his Edmonton years, and he was barely above average in Los Angeles and New York. For this reason I see him as more of a terrific 8-10 year prime candidate than a 20 year Bourque or Howe type candidate, despite his high scoring throughout his career.
Pretty much what I've been trying to get at with the last couple of posts here.

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Old
04-15-2013, 01:52 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
you seem to be having a problem with what I'm talking about in my most recent posts. I did a little bit of research and this is waht Overpass has to say on his Adjusted Even-Strength Plus-minus 1968-2008 research which can be found in the by the numbers section on this site.

Here is a link to his study

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=591548

In post #3 Overpass takes an analysis of some of the results and this is the section on Wayne,



Pretty much what I've been trying to get at with the last couple of posts here.
EXCEPT YOU KEEP ON SAYING THAT THE SUTER HIT IN '91 DIDN'T CONTRIBUTE SUBSTANTIALLY TO HIS SUDDEN DECLINE IN EVEN STRENGTH PLAY OR HIS PLAY IN GENERAL!!!

He was producing over 100 ****ing EVEN STRENGTH points a year prior to '91 and then he dropped off the map!

AND you clearly were trying to state (for like the, i SWEAR, 10th time in 2 years now) that Gretzky's drop in both ES points and points in general was due to some kind of League evolution or some BS integrated league crap.
THAT IS CLEARLY NOT THE CASE!!!


How does what OP said there have anything to do with what you were posting or the point you were trying to make???

Do I have to re-quote everything you said again?

All I was saying was that Gretzky's decline was due to 3 factors.
1) He was getting older
2) The 4 on 4 rule change affected Gretzky and the Oilers much more than it did any other player or team
3) The Suter hit made him mortal.

You have said ABSOLUTELY nothing to counter any of this!
No where is there even the barest thread of proof or even a hint that the League was catching him!
He was slowly (prior to '91) coming down to the League's level. It was NOT coming up to his! At least not even remotely at the speed you like to spout on about heh

Like Jesus Christ dude, your EXACT words were...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
This drop in ES play had nothing to do with the injury in 91, the numbers clearly show this.
Oh and remember a little conversation you had with some folks about OV's vs Crosby's +/- differences like a week or two ago


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 04-15-2013 at 02:10 AM.
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04-15-2013, 06:31 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
EXCEPT YOU KEEP ON SAYING THAT THE SUTER HIT IN '91 DIDN'T CONTRIBUTE SUBSTANTIALLY TO HIS SUDDEN DECLINE IN EVEN STRENGTH PLAY OR HIS PLAY IN GENERAL!!!

He was producing over 100 ****ing EVEN STRENGTH points a year prior to '91 and then he dropped off the map!

AND you clearly were trying to state (for like the, i SWEAR, 10th time in 2 years now) that Gretzky's drop in both ES points and points in general was due to some kind of League evolution or some BS integrated league crap.
THAT IS CLEARLY NOT THE CASE!!!


How does what OP said there have anything to do with what you were posting or the point you were trying to make???

Do I have to re-quote everything you said again?

All I was saying was that Gretzky's decline was due to 3 factors.
1) He was getting older
2) The 4 on 4 rule change affected Gretzky and the Oilers much more than it did any other player or team
3) The Suter hit made him mortal.

You have said ABSOLUTELY nothing to counter any of this!
No where is there even the barest thread of proof or even a hint that the League was catching him!
He was slowly (prior to '91) coming down to the League's level. It was NOT coming up to his! At least not even remotely at the speed you like to spout on about heh

Like Jesus Christ dude, your EXACT words were...


Oh and remember a little conversation you had with some folks about OV's vs Crosby's +/- differences like a week or two ago
Don't let the facts get in the way of your interpretation of what actually happened though.

Wayne's plus minus dominance begins slipping at age 27, not 31 on the same team situation for him.

AO's plus minus compared to Sid's on different teams is an entirely different thing.

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Old
04-15-2013, 07:29 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Don't let the facts get in the way of your interpretation of what actually happened though.

Wayne's plus minus dominance begins slipping at age 27, not 31 on the same team situation for him.

AO's plus minus compared to Sid's on different teams is an entirely different thing.

Unfortunately, what you were arguing was that it was, and I quote...
Quote:
We can look at both their ESGF and ESGA as time went on and their focus on offense at the expense of defense starting catching up to both of them with the changing tides.
It was NOT the "changing tides" that caught up to Gretzky, it was him slowing down as he aged, the "Edmonton rule" and the switching to a new team that caused his SLOW decline.

87/88 - He misses almost a 1/4 of the season, still looking at around a +50 over a full season. Well within a nice easy curve as he is leaving his peak years.
88/89 - His first year in LA, obviously an adjustment period is happening
89/90 - He misses a few games here and there, plays through nagging injuries most other players wouldn't and isn't 100% for a good chunk of the season (this is well documented btw, feel free to look it up)
90/91 - Looking more like himself, older and not the same player from his peak but still better than anyone not named Lemieux, returns to a high +/- of +30
91/92 - Suter Crosscheck in CC, finishes the following season a minus for the first time in his entire career and we see his ES production drop from 100+ a season to around 60


Either way, it was not as you keep trying to say the League catching up to him or changing tides or evolution of the League or a fully integrated League.

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04-15-2013, 08:16 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Unfortunately, what you were arguing was that it was, and I quote...


It was NOT the "changing tides" that caught up to Gretzky, it was him slowing down as he aged, the "Edmonton rule" and the switching to a new team that caused his SLOW decline.

87/88 - He misses almost a 1/4 of the season, still looking at around a +50 over a full season. Well within a nice easy curve as he is leaving his peak years.
88/89 - His first year in LA, obviously an adjustment period is happening
89/90 - He misses a few games here and there, plays through nagging injuries most other players wouldn't and isn't 100% for a good chunk of the season (this is well documented btw, feel free to look it up)
90/91 - Looking more like himself, older and not the same player from his peak but still better than anyone not named Lemieux, returns to a high +/- of +30
91/92 - Suter Crosscheck in CC, finishes the following season a minus for the first time in his entire career and we see his ES production drop from 100+ a season to around 60


Either way, it was not as you keep trying to say the League catching up to him or changing tides or evolution of the League or a fully integrated League.
Maybe you could spend a little bit of time reading what I actually write instead of pretending to write for me?

I'm not talking only about his ES scoring but rather his ES dominance which starts to slip, quite a bit in 88 then more after that.

It's a clear 4 years before the Suter hit.

The 4-4 rule was the freaking same for everyone in the league.

Rules, players, seasons change players adapt and everyone eventually losses their elite dominance, for Wayne it was starting in 88.

His point totals were still up which was great for fantasy pools but his impact was lessening at a faster rate than his scoring was plain and simple.

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04-15-2013, 01:25 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Maybe you could spend a little bit of time reading what I actually write instead of pretending to write for me?
I freakin posted your exact quotes!!! There's no mistake what you were trying to say!
You were trying to champion your "Evolving/Integrated League" crap again and I wasn't having any of it.

Quote:
I'm not talking only about his ES scoring but rather his ES dominance which starts to slip, quite a bit in 88 then more after that.
Actually, it, THE SLOW DECLINE, started in 86 when the 4 on 4 rule was changed.

Quote:
It's a clear 4 years before the Suter hit.
That's 5 years before the Suter hit

Quote:
The 4-4 rule was the freaking same for everyone in the league.
Oh it freakin was, was it?
Remind us all again what the nickname for this rule was and EXACTLY why it was changed.


Quote:
Rules, players, seasons change players adapt and everyone eventually losses their elite dominance, for Wayne it was starting in 88.
This is all true, except, his ES dominance started its slow decline in '86 when the 4 on 4 rule was changed.

Quote:
His point totals were still up which was great for fantasy pools but his impact was lessening at a faster rate than his scoring was plain and simple.
Nope!!!
It was all a pretty slow decline in all area's and anything else is explained by the rule change in '86, team change in 88/89 and playing through injuries in 89/90.

What it sure as hell wasn't, was what you tried to spout. That the League suddenly "caught up" to him overnight.
THAT, didn't happen until the 91/92 season, after the Suter hit made him mortal.
Your "changing tides" ******** was NOT the reason!


You're done here, move on. Take your "theories" back where they belong and where they still have yet to be proven please.


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Old
04-15-2013, 06:40 PM
  #207
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Actually i was wrong it started the year before his LA move his last year in Edmonton.

But I don't think that you are understanding what i was presenting so let me put it in simpler terms. Wayne was still scoring at an elite rate but the actual scoring in terms of helping his teams win or calculating his greatness was diminishing. We can see this at even strength with his plus/minus numbers.

Here they are in chronological , we will start at 82 becasue that's the beginning of his absolute peak dominace

82 plus 68 1st in the league
83 plus 60 2nd in league 3 Oilers in top 3, 5 in top 10
84 plus 76 1st , 3 Oilers in top 10
85 plus 98 1st, top 4 are Oilers, top 5 of 7
86 plus 71 3rd behind 2 Flyers then 6 more Oilers in top 10
87 plus 70 1st , next best is Mark Howe at 57
88 plus 39 tied for 5th with Gary Suter (the dip is already here even with only 64 GP it translates into a plus 47 rating, his first drop under plus 60 in 6 seasons)
89 plus 15 (out of the top 20 which was a plus 27)
90 plus 8
91 plus 30 7th place and his last good even strength season.
Alright I guess we're starting to use plus/minus a little more seriously. That's fine, but if we are going to do that we should look at all angles. For example, Crosby is a +26 this year and while that is very good it is the highest he has ever been in his career. For his career Crosby is a +106. Not bad. In a single season Gretzky was a +98. Highest ever for a forward, 3rd highest all-time behind a couple insane Orr and Robinson years. The last truly elite season Crosby had was 2010. He had 109 points. He was +10. The Pens were a very good team that year too. What happened? Also, why was he only a +3 in 2009 after a 103 point year? Well, we all know Crosby is a nice well rounded player but he can't prevent the odd lackluster game Fleury will have anymore than Gretzky could with Kelly Hrudey. Crosby is one man on the ice and can't control if his defenseman coughs the puck up on the power play for a goal against. These things happen, which is why +/- is a nice stat, but many times a troubling one.

But since we're on the topic............I have to ask Hardy, how is it that a player can get traded from a Cup winner to the 18th best team in the NHL, bump them to 4th best in the NHL the following year, win the Hart, score 168 points and then get criticized because he is "only" +15. In other words, of all the things to take from the 1988-'89 season you choose this? Plus I will say, the "dip" post 1987 makes a little sense. He missed some time, the Oilers didn't finish at the top of their division that year either. Plus +39 is still pretty good though. I mean, the guy led the NHL in +/- 4 times, how many times should he have done it? In comparison, Orr led it 6 times and he was clearly more well rounded. Mario did it once in 1993. Crosby now sits 3rd this season, and it is the only time he has been in the top 10. So forgive me if I find it a little like fishing to knock the guy for having a declining +/-. How long did you expect him to be getting +70?

I think it is also worth noting that in 1991 Marty McSorley led the NHL in +/-. He was a good defenseman but never elite. However, there is a common denominator with him. He was +48 in 1991. His next best was +23 in 1988. I don't know about you, but I am going out on a limb that the superstar that was on his team both those years filling the net had a lot to do with McSorley's totals. Just a hunch. Because he was a minus player almost every other season in the NHL. So just a little context here.



Quote:
Sorry but the LA team made the finals in 93, sure Wayne was a large piece in that run but he was a measly plus 6 in the regular season. there is no denying Wayne's playoff performances but he was really slipping, in terms of overall impact at this point of his career.

In fact ion his last 8 seasons, while still being an elite scorer he only had 2 seasons where he was a plus player at ES. This doesn't matter if one is playing fantasy hockey but it does matter for evaluating a players impact and worth in the NHL
Even Wayne Gretzky has to find a time when he's slipping. You can't win scoring titles at will forever. I think one thing you seem to underrate is that in any sport the legends ALL end up slowing down. Babe Ruth never took care of himself and it caught up to him the last 2-3 years of his career. Michael Jordan? Remember him on the Washington Wizards? But does that take away from what these men did earlier in their careers? No, because them "slowing down" is what 99% of the players dream of doing at their best. So yeah, there is no secret, a player will see his quality drop as time goes on, even Wayne Gretzky.

Quote:
This drop in ES play had nothing to do with the injury in 91, the numbers clearly show this
I have to disagree with you and agree with Rhiessan on this one. Suter's hit mangled his back and took away a lot of the quickness that we associated with him. He had a 163 point season that year, destroying the rest of the NHL. The next year, 121, and a Mario-induced Kevin Stevens outproduced him. He goes from 163 to 121 just like that. 103 even strength points to 63. No explanation from you other than the assumption that the NHL was catching up to him. No, the Suter hit triggered a lot of that, to me that is the majority of the reason. However, age was starting to catch up to him and not to mention that the only time post 1991 that we saw the Gretzky we knew for a long period of time from 1979-'91 was the 1993 playoffs.

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04-15-2013, 07:14 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
I freakin posted your exact quotes!!! There's no mistake what you were trying to say!
You were trying to champion your "Evolving/Integrated League" crap again and I wasn't having any of it.



Actually, it, THE SLOW DECLINE, started in 86 when the 4 on 4 rule was changed.



That's 5 years before the Suter hit



Oh it freakin was, was it?
Remind us all again what the nickname for this rule was and EXACTLY why it was changed.




This is all true, except, his ES dominance started its slow decline in '86 when the 4 on 4 rule was changed.



Nope!!!
It was all a pretty slow decline in all area's and anything else is explained by the rule change in '86, team change in 88/89 and playing through injuries in 89/90.

What it sure as hell wasn't, was what you tried to spout. That the League suddenly "caught up" to him overnight.
THAT, didn't happen until the 91/92 season, after the Suter hit made him mortal.
Your "changing tides" ******** was NOT the reason!


You're done here, move on. Take your "theories" back where they belong and where they still have yet to be proven please.
This is where he'll post that his post has been rectified, yet again. He can't keep up with his own arguments.

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04-15-2013, 08:15 PM
  #209
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I don't see why I'm not being objective, I love both of these guys. What's your retort? Why do you think Robitaille ranks ahead of Ovechkin?


Phil's a smart guy, but I've been around the Pens board and nobody there is going to put Malkin ahead of Crosby because he has more Art Rosses. They're a better and more objective gauge for this kind of thing. They know Crosby is the best, they're not going to go count trophies.

Ovechkin was neck and neck for a bit, but I think you'll be in a minority if you don't think Crosby has proven to be better
I dont agree with you. Malkin 11/12 is way more dominant than 12/13 Crosby.

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04-15-2013, 08:39 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
I freakin posted your exact quotes!!! There's no mistake what you were trying to say!
You were trying to champion your "Evolving/Integrated League" crap again and I wasn't having any of it.



Actually, it, THE SLOW DECLINE, started in 86 when the 4 on 4 rule was changed.



That's 5 years before the Suter hit



Oh it freakin was, was it?
Remind us all again what the nickname for this rule was and EXACTLY why it was changed.




This is all true, except, his ES dominance started its slow decline in '86 when the 4 on 4 rule was changed.



Nope!!!
It was all a pretty slow decline in all area's and anything else is explained by the rule change in '86, team change in 88/89 and playing through injuries in 89/90.

What it sure as hell wasn't, was what you tried to spout. That the League suddenly "caught up" to him overnight.
THAT, didn't happen until the 91/92 season, after the Suter hit made him mortal.
Your "changing tides" ******** was NOT the reason!


You're done here, move on. Take your "theories" back where they belong and where they still have yet to be proven please.
Your post doesn't even make any sense, Wayne was still a plus 70 in 87.

Did you even look at the study by Overpass?

Or Wayne's actual plus/minus numbers?

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04-15-2013, 08:46 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Your post doesn't even make any sense, Wayne was still a plus 70 in 87.

Did you even look at the study by Overpass?

Or Wayne's actual plus/minus numbers?
The fact that you have stooped to +/- kind of shows the overall weakness in your arguments.

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04-15-2013, 09:18 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
This is where he'll post that his post has been rectified, yet again. He can't keep up with his own arguments.
No idea on what you are trying to say here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Alright I guess we're starting to use plus/minus a little more seriously. That's fine, but if we are going to do that we should look at all angles. For example, Crosby is a +26 this year and while that is very good it is the highest he has ever been in his career. For his career Crosby is a +106. Not bad. In a single season Gretzky was a +98. Highest ever for a forward, 3rd highest all-time behind a couple insane Orr and Robinson years. The last truly elite season Crosby had was 2010. He had 109 points. He was +10. The Pens were a very good team that year too. What happened? Also, why was he only a +3 in 2009 after a 103 point year? Well, we all know Crosby is a nice well rounded player but he can't prevent the odd lackluster game Fleury will have anymore than Gretzky could with Kelly Hrudey. Crosby is one man on the ice and can't control if his defenseman coughs the puck up on the power play for a goal against. These things happen, which is why +/- is a nice stat, but many times a troubling one.
Phil you and I both know that the variation for plus minus has gone down quite a bit from the high 70's and early 80's, take a look at the study by Overpass, I provided a link and it's good reading.

Sid BTW has an excellent R-on 134 R-off 89 (for his 1st 5 seasons) and an adjusted plus minus of 154 which looks excellent given the small sample size of his first 5 seasons.

Quote:
But since we're on the topic............I have to ask Hardy, how is it that a player can get traded from a Cup winner to the 18th best team in the NHL, bump them to 4th best in the NHL the following year, win the Hart, score 168 points and then get criticized because he is "only" +15. In other words, of all the things to take from the 1988-'89 season you choose this?
Look Wayne was an icon and it was LA and I seriously doubt the voters really wanted to look at anything besides Wayne in LA that year.

You ahve to remember that Wayne, McSorely and Krushelnyski went to LA for Carson, hardly known as a two way player in any sense and Gelinas didn't even play with LA the year before. Also John Tonelli came in to and he is one under rated guy IMO.

All 4 guys had really big contributions to the team, of course Wayne was the catalyst and the Hart generally goes to the highest scoring forward not a two way guy like Moose who needs alot of scoring to to win like he did in the next year.

Basically it was one of those years that even though his offensive stats were good, it was an emotional vote for Wayne and how he saved hockey, made it grow in the states ect....


Quote:
Plus I will say, the "dip" post 1987 makes a little sense. He missed some time, the Oilers didn't finish at the top of their division that year either. Plus +39 is still pretty good though. I mean, the guy led the NHL in +/- 4 times, how many times should he have done it?
Even prorated for the full season it was a huge drop and basically one would expect him to keep doing it as long as he was playing at that elite level. If that elite level dropped or something else changed then it would drop.

While he was still elite offensively, his overall eliteness was dipping, the number don't lie here.


Quote:
In comparison, Orr led it 6 times and he was clearly more well rounded. Mario did it once in 1993. Crosby now sits 3rd this season, and it is the only time he has been in the top 10. So forgive me if I find it a little like fishing to knock the guy for having a declining +/-. How long did you expect him to be getting +70?

I think it is also worth noting that in 1991 Marty McSorley led the NHL in +/-. He was a good defenseman but never elite. However, there is a common denominator with him. He was +48 in 1991. His next best was +23 in 1988. I don't know about you, but I am going out on a limb that the superstar that was on his team both those years filling the net had a lot to do with McSorley's totals. Just a hunch. Because he was a minus player almost every other season in the NHL. So just a little context here.

Orr was a freak, his R-on R-off are out of this world due to a combination of his skill level and the lack of parity in the NHL for his career.

Even late in his career his plus 6 on that Black Hawk team in 20 GP is simply outstanding

As for Marty in 91 La was 4th in GA down from 18th the year before. 9 full time players were plus 19 or better so Marty might have had good matchups and some luck to post his career high. There is a pretty big sample in LA for both Marty and Wayne that suggest this was the last blip, literally.


Quote:
Even Wayne Gretzky has to find a time when he's slipping. You can't win scoring titles at will forever. I think one thing you seem to underrate is that in any sport the legends ALL end up slowing down. Babe Ruth never took care of himself and it caught up to him the last 2-3 years of his career. Michael Jordan? Remember him on the Washington Wizards? But does that take away from what these men did earlier in their careers? No, because them "slowing down" is what 99% of the players dream of doing at their best. So yeah, there is no secret, a player will see his quality drop as time goes on, even Wayne Gretzky.
The slippage of course occurs for everyone but the fact remains that his offensive elite status stayed much longer and obscured the fact that it meant less in his teams abilities to win hockey games given his 5-5 play.



Quote:
I have to disagree with you and agree with Rhiessan on this one. Suter's hit mangled his back and took away a lot of the quickness that we associated with him. He had a 163 point season that year, destroying the rest of the NHL. The next year, 121, and a Mario-induced Kevin Stevens outproduced him. He goes from 163 to 121 just like that. 103 even strength points to 63. No explanation from you other than the assumption that the NHL was catching up to him. No, the Suter hit triggered a lot of that, to me that is the majority of the reason. However, age was starting to catch up to him and not to mention that the only time post 1991 that we saw the Gretzky we knew for a long period of time from 1979-'91 was the 1993 playoffs.
Well no one can prove what would ahve happened without the Suter hit point wise, but Wayne's 5-5 play had been a shell of it's former self for 4 whole years before that hit.

The way some guys talk about the Suter hit, it's like Wayne would still be leading the NHL in scoring well into the 2000's without it.

The hit happened, Wayne's ES play had declined quite a bit before it and the league was absorbing a lot of excellent offensive talent as the 90's went on.

Maybe some of the focus on points is clouding people's judgment here, I suggest people look at the numbers and read the report by Overpass.

Once again the link is here

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=591548

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Old
04-15-2013, 09:25 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Your post doesn't even make any sense, Wayne was still a plus 70 in 87.

Did you even look at the study by Overpass?

Or Wayne's actual plus/minus numbers?
Out of EVERYTHING I posted there, the best you can do is come up with his +70 in '87?
Despite the fact that 86/87 was clearly the start of him coming down from his peak. Dropping down to only 124 ES points (1.57 ES PpG) after averaging 141 (1.78 ES PpG) over the previous 5 seasons.

What about the "Edmonton Rule"? Nothing eh? Didn't think so.

What about your comment that the "changing tides" was responsible, you still running with that one at this point?
What about saying straight up that the Suter hit didn't affect him or his ES production/play in general?

Like I said, you're done here, lets move on.

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04-15-2013, 09:51 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
No idea on what you are trying to say here.
You don't? Ok, I'll show you exactly what he's trying to say.




Quote:
The slippage of course occurs for everyone but the fact remains that his offensive elite status stayed much longer and obscured the fact that it meant less in his teams abilities to win hockey games given his 5-5 play.
^This is what you're saying now (which is still wrong considering how LA did in both the regular season and especially in the playoffs after Gretzky arrived) but this is what you said earlier that started all this crap in the first place...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
By the mid 90's trying to keep your opponent from scoring had become more the mantra than outscoring him though.

While both Wayne and Mario still continued to be top elite offensive players, their style of play was less conducive and decisive in actually winning hockey games as the 90's wore on.

We can look at both their ESGF and ESGA as time went on and their focus on offense at the expense of defense starting catching up to both of them with the changing tides.

First you're talking about "as the 90's wore on" which is baffling to begin with because Mario won Cups in '91 and '92 and the Suter hit happened before the start of the 91/92 season. Even after the Suter hit when Gretzky was far from the player he was in the 80's, he still leads the Kings to the Cup final in '93.

THEN, after you were getting shelled on this one you "moved the goal posts" to say the mid-late 90's and you still tried to include Gretzky's time with the Rangers which is even more ridiculous considering this is all still AFTER the Suter hit.
THEN, when you were getting shelled on this as well, you moved the goal posts back to '87 and attacked Gretzky back then with, of all things...+/- and a study that, (because of my documentation showing Gretzky's ES production was still close to the same in LA than it was in his last 2 seasons in EDM) only actually proves one thing...that Fuhr was a better goalie in wide open hockey games than Hrudy was. Wow, what a shocking revelation that is to everyone I'm sure

ON TOP OF ALL THIS...you were also preaching the "changing tides" crap to boot!

So do you still not understand what Habsfanatics was saying?
You are the only one that doesn't at this point, I assure you.

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04-15-2013, 09:55 PM
  #215
Morgoth Bauglir
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
You don't? Ok, I'll show you exactly what he's trying to say.

^This is what you're saying now (which is still wrong considering how LA did in both the regular season and especially in the playoffs after Gretzky arrived) but this is what you said earlier that started all this crap in the first place...

First you're talking about "as the 90's wore on" which is baffling to begin with because Mario won Cups in '91 and '92 and the Suter hit happened before the start of the 91/92 season. Even after the Suter hit when Gretzky was far from the player he was in the 80's, he still leads the Kings to the Cup final in '93.

THEN, after you were getting shelled on this one you "moved the goal posts" to say the mid-late 90's and you still tried to include Gretzky's time with the Rangers which is even more ridiculous considering this is all still AFTER the Suter hit.
THEN, when you were getting shelled on this as well, you moved the goal posts back to '87 and attacked Gretzky back then with, of all things...+/- and a study that, (because of my documentation showing Gretzky's ES production was still close to the same in LA than it was in his last 2 seasons in EDM) only actually proves one thing...that Fuhr was a better goalie in wide open hockey games than Hrudy was. Wow, what a shocking revelation that is to everyone I'm sure

ON TOP OF ALL THIS...you were also preaching the "changing tides" crap to boot!

So do you still not understand what Habsfanatics was saying?
You are the only one that doesn't at this point, I assure you.
You know, when all else fails they always fall back in "Well Wayne and Mario didn't backcheck....."

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04-15-2013, 10:06 PM
  #216
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I dont agree with you. Malkin 11/12 is way more dominant than 12/13 Crosby.
Why do you think that?

Welcome to the history section BTW.

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Old
04-15-2013, 10:16 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Out of EVERYTHING I posted there, the best you can do is come up with his +70 in '87?
Despite the fact that 86/87 was clearly the start of him coming down from his peak. Dropping down to only 124 ES points (1.57 ES PpG) after averaging 141 (1.78 ES PpG) over the previous 5 seasons.

What about the "Edmonton Rule"? Nothing eh? Didn't think so.

What about your comment that the "changing tides" was responsible, you still running with that one at this point?
What about saying straight up that the Suter hit didn't affect him or his ES production/play in general?

Like I said, you're done here, lets move on.[/B]
You talk about the Edmonton 4-4 rule, do you have any numbers to support it?

To the part in bold, once again quite being ignorant, you don't speak for me so respectfully stop saying that you do.

I'm not trying to score points for my buddies in the trailer park, I'm asking serious questions, maybe do some research and back up what you assert.

Wayne's 5-5 numbers take a serious dip in 88 at age 27 in Edmonton, they continue further for the rest of his career although if one wasn't looking carefully one could confuse his offensive production as being worth more than it actually was becoming.

The "Edmonton Rule" was in affect for 87 when Wayne was still plus 70, his last year of his 6 year run or peak.

Now what?


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 04-15-2013 at 10:23 PM.
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04-15-2013, 10:22 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
You don't? Ok, I'll show you exactly what he's trying to say.






^This is what you're saying now (which is still wrong considering how LA did in both the regular season and especially in the playoffs after Gretzky arrived) but this is what you said earlier that started all this crap in the first place...




First you're talking about "as the 90's wore on" which is baffling to begin with because Mario won Cups in '91 and '92 and the Suter hit happened before the start of the 91/92 season. Even after the Suter hit when Gretzky was far from the player he was in the 80's, he still leads the Kings to the Cup final in '93.

THEN, after you were getting shelled on this one you "moved the goal posts" to say the mid-late 90's and you still tried to include Gretzky's time with the Rangers which is even more ridiculous considering this is all still AFTER the Suter hit.
THEN, when you were getting shelled on this as well, you moved the goal posts back to '87 and attacked Gretzky back then with, of all things...+/- and a study that, (because of my documentation showing Gretzky's ES production was still close to the same in LA than it was in his last 2 seasons in EDM) only actually proves one thing...that Fuhr was a better goalie in wide open hockey games than Hrudy was. Wow, what a shocking revelation that is to everyone I'm sure

ON TOP OF ALL THIS...you were also preaching the "changing tides" crap to boot!

So do you still not understand what Habsfanatics was saying?
You are the only one that doesn't at this point, I assure you.
You know what, I was wrong.

I speculated that it had happened more in the mid 90's and then went and did some research and found that it happened much earlier for Wayne.

I know what happened starting in 88 wayne became less elite 5-5.

I can't prove why, nobody can, but we can guess and part of it might have been that teams were starting to play stronger against him 5-5.

The point of the matter is that it would be wrong to say that he was still as elite as he was in 87 and before, even more than the points decline would indicate.

Go read the study, it's informative.

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Old
04-15-2013, 10:26 PM
  #219
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You know, when all else fails they always fall back in "Well Wayne and Mario didn't backcheck....."
Don't bother letting the facts of the matter get in the way though.

Since when did real hockey become fantasy hockey?

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04-15-2013, 10:30 PM
  #220
Morgoth Bauglir
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Don't bother letting the facts of the matter get in the way though.

Since when did real hockey become fantasy hockey?
I dunno, since when did real hockey become soccer on ice?

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Old
04-15-2013, 10:37 PM
  #221
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I dunno, since when did real hockey become soccer on ice?
Looks like mid 90's, but you did acknowledge a change in the NHL.

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Old
04-15-2013, 10:39 PM
  #222
Morgoth Bauglir
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Looks like mid 90's, but you did acknowledge a change in the NHL.
If by "change" you mean "became inferior" than I can go with that

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04-15-2013, 10:59 PM
  #223
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If by "change" you mean "became inferior" than I can go with that
Well I can't say which era was "better" or not as it's subjective and I certainly wouldn't disrespect the skill level of players that I have seen.

Too bad the sticky only applies to certain players and modern ones are fair game for all sorts of stuff that a casual fan might mistake for lack of talent.

The overall talent has never regressed over time.

Hopefully Sid will be back soon and put up more stuff on his resume, although I can already see any success in the playoffs as being driven by the "trades" for some.

AO getting out of the first round would be nice too.

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04-16-2013, 01:45 AM
  #224
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I can't prove why, nobody can, but we can guess and part of it might have been that teams were starting to play stronger against him 5-5.

The point of the matter is that it would be wrong to say that he was still as elite as he was in 87 and before, even more than the points decline would indicate.
By 1988, Gretzky was 27 and had played an enormous amount of hockey. A WJC, 3 Canada Cups, 4 SC runs while averaging close to 80 games a year, save 1988. I would say he entered phase two of his career; between elite and injury. I can't think of any player up to that point in history that played that much hockey by the time he was 27 years old. Its a credit to him that taking care of himself allowed him to continue at a high level into his 30's before the injury. Some players before him approached that amount of hockey such as Esposito, Lafleur, Cournoyer, etc..., but were performing at a much lower level by age 30. He is an incredible anomaly for hockey players.

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04-16-2013, 07:21 AM
  #225
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
By 1988, Gretzky was 27 and had played an enormous amount of hockey. A WJC, 3 Canada Cups, 4 SC runs while averaging close to 80 games a year, save 1988. I would say he entered phase two of his career; between elite and injury. I can't think of any player up to that point in history that played that much hockey by the time he was 27 years old. Its a credit to him that taking care of himself allowed him to continue at a high level into his 30's before the injury. Some players before him approached that amount of hockey such as Esposito, Lafleur, Cournoyer, etc..., but were performing at a much lower level by age 30. He is an incredible anomaly for hockey players.
I bet you cant find nobody playing similarly much hockey by that age. Come on now, you must be able to find a better reason why he regressed. No real injuries either.

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