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Ranking some of the top goalies from the 90`s at their peak

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03-31-2013, 04:20 PM
  #1
87center
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Ranking some of the top goalies from the 90`s at their peak

I was wondering where everyone would rate some of the top goalies from the 90`s when they were at their peak in a few categories on a scale of 1-10 with 10 obviously being the highest value a player could receive in any category. The goalies are Patrick Roy, Dominik Hasek, Ed Belfour, Martin Brodeur, Curtis Joseph.

Categories:

Glove Hand: ability to catch the puck on high shots and low shots.
Blocker: ability to block shots with their blocker both high and low.
Stick Ability: ability to swat pucks or poke the puck away from the opposing team.
Pad Work: general shot stopping ability with their pads.
Angle Play: General angle and positional play. Also consider reaction and or recovery ability to passes across.
Consistency: Both playoffs and regular season.

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03-31-2013, 05:41 PM
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Some of my ratings

Roy
Glove: 10
Blocker: not sure
Stick: not sure
Pads: 9
Angles: not sure
Consistency: 10

Brodeur:
Glove: 10
Blocker: 9
Stick: 9.5
Pads: 9
Angles: not sure
Consistency: 9.5

Hasek:
Glove: 9.5
Blocker: 9.5
Stick: 7
Pads: 9.5
Angles: not sure
Consistency: 10

Cujo
Glove: 9.5
Blocker: not sure
Stick: not sure
Pads: 9
Angles: 9
Consistency: 8

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04-01-2013, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 87center View Post
Some of my ratings

Roy
Glove: 10
Blocker: not sure
Stick: not sure
Pads: 9
Angles: not sure
Consistency: 10

Brodeur:
Glove: 10
Blocker: 9
Stick: 9.5
Pads: 9
Angles: not sure
Consistency: 9.5

Hasek:
Glove: 9.5
Blocker: 9.5
Stick: 7
Pads: 9.5
Angles: not sure
Consistency: 10

Cujo
Glove: 9.5
Blocker: not sure
Stick: not sure
Pads: 9
Angles: 9
Consistency: 8
You've already failed.

For all of his flaws, Cujo had the best glove hand of the four goalies you've listed. If anyone gets a 10 in that department, it's him. And Hasek's consistency should be more like a 6 or something. When he showed up, there was a good chance it was a 1-goal or shutout... but if he was bad, he was BAD.

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04-01-2013, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by 87center View Post
Angle Play: General angle and positional play. Also consider reaction and or recovery ability to passes across.
I must admit, I'm somewhat confused by this one. It seems to be asking for a rating about the goalie's ability to play the angles well, then also asks for a rating on the goalies reflexes... which have nothing to do (directly) with how well the goalie plays the angles. The way the description is, Hasek gets a 10 because of his reflexes.

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04-01-2013, 01:11 AM
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Alrighty then...
& adding Ed Belfour

Roy
Glove: 9
Blocker: 9
Stick: 9
Pads: 9
Angles: 10
Consistency: 9

Brodeur:
Glove: 9
Blocker: 9
Stick: 9
Pads: 9
Angles: 10
Consistency: 9

Hasek:
Glove: 8
Blocker: 9
Stick: 8
Pads: 9
Angles: 10
Consistency: 9 (or 0)

Cujo
Glove: 10
Blocker: 7
Stick: 7
Pads: 8
Angles: 9
Consistency: 7

Belfour
Glove: 8
Blocker: 9
Stick: 9
Pads: 9
Angles: 9
Consistency: 8


Last edited by Killion: 04-01-2013 at 01:38 AM.
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04-01-2013, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I must admit, I'm somewhat confused by this one. It seems to be asking for a rating about the goalie's ability to play the angles well, then also asks for a rating on the goalies reflexes... which have nothing to do (directly) with how well the goalie plays the angles. The way the description is, Hasek gets a 10 because of his reflexes.
Innate reflex is a separate issue altogether however, in playing the angles, positional play, the better one is at it the less one has to rely upon pure reflex in order to make the save. You leave them nothing to shoot at, the puck either hits you or it goes wide of the net altogether. If it hits you, you need to then know how to handle it in terms of rebound control. If a catcher save pretty straightforward, but if a skate save, stick, pad or blocker, you want your goalie angling his equipment in such a way that the puck is either directed to the corners or falls dead right in front of him so he can either play it with his stick or collapse on it & force a face-off. Hasek however was an anomaly, a bit of a throwback to mid-60's, even 50's era goalies, whereby he generally played a bit deeper in his crease than did the others above, played the game vertically a lot more, relying much more on his incredible reflexes, concentration. A scrambler. More abstract than Roy, Brodeur, Joseph or Ed, who were more practiced, studied, cautious.


Last edited by Killion: 04-01-2013 at 01:38 AM.
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04-01-2013, 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
You've already failed.

For all of his flaws, Cujo had the best glove hand of the four goalies you've listed. If anyone gets a 10 in that department, it's him. And Hasek's consistency should be more like a 6 or something. When he showed up, there was a good chance it was a 1-goal or shutout... but if he was bad, he was BAD.
That depends on how you define consistency. There is the possibility of playing on one level for pretty much every game of the year, or playing consistently at the peak of your ability. A goalie who has 5 great, 50 good and 5 bad games fits the first mold. A goalie who has 45 great, 5 good and 10 really bad games looks to be more inconsistent, but is far more consistent in showing his peak ability. The former is good enough to win you games, but is showing only glimpses of what he is capable of. The latter, on the other hand, will steal you games on a daily basis.

If Hasek was really THAT inconsistent, his stats wouldn't destroy the others like they actually do, as the weak games would pull him down, which they don't, on the contrary.

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04-01-2013, 05:54 AM
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At their PEAK, they should all get 9s and 10s, so the poll is kinda pointless. I would like to point out that, other than reflexes, Hasek had the best pads of all of them. CuJo indeed had the best glove, but Roy was not far behind. Angles have nothing to do with reflexes either. Hasek's angles were probably the worst of the bunch, and reflexes -- the best.

Another important aspect of the goalie game is hockey sense. How well can the goalie read the play, read the mind of the players attacking him, how patient he is, etc. This is where Hasek was the best.

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04-01-2013, 06:21 AM
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Vertical Angles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
At their PEAK, they should all get 9s and 10s, so the poll is kinda pointless. I would like to point out that, other than reflexes, Hasek had the best pads of all of them. CuJo indeed had the best glove, but Roy was not far behind. Angles have nothing to do with reflexes either. Hasek's angles were probably the worst of the bunch, and reflexes -- the best.

Another important aspect of the goalie game is hockey sense. How well can the goalie read the play, read the mind of the players attacking him, how patient he is, etc. This is where Hasek was the best.
Dominik Hasek had the best appreciation of vertical angles of all goalies since the 1967 expansion.

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04-01-2013, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
You've already failed.

For all of his flaws, Cujo had the best glove hand of the four goalies you've listed. If anyone gets a 10 in that department, it's him. And Hasek's consistency should be more like a 6 or something. When he showed up, there was a good chance it was a 1-goal or shutout... but if he was bad, he was BAD.
Failed at what? It`s an opinion dude. It`s not a historical fact that Cujo had the best glove in the history of hockey. One could make a good argument for Roy or even Brodeur. That said, Cujo might very well have the best glove hand if a poll was created with all three net-minders in it.

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04-01-2013, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
At their PEAK, they should all get 9s and 10s, so the poll is kinda pointless. I would like to point out that, other than reflexes, Hasek had the best pads of all of them. CuJo indeed had the best glove, but Roy was not far behind. Angles have nothing to do with reflexes either. Hasek's angles were probably the worst of the bunch, and reflexes -- the best.

Another important aspect of the goalie game is hockey sense. How well can the goalie read the play, read the mind of the players attacking him, how patient he is, etc. This is where Hasek was the best.
Maybe. Although, if we take a look at some scouting reports from the hockey goalies website it seems that for all their brilliance they were not without some weaknesses. What do you think of the reports? Accurate, semi-accurate?


Curtis Joseph

STYLE: Combination standup - butterfly.

STRENGTHS: Has a reputation for being a clutch performer. Plays angles well. Very good breakaway goaltender. Recovers well for rebounds. Strong stick-handler. Good skater.

WEAKNESSES: Vulnerable to shots along either post. Poor lateral movement. Has a hot head at times.

Patrick Roy

STYLE: Butterfly.

STRENGTHS: Incredibly competitive, even cocky. Plays angles very well, stays at the top of his crease. Gives up very few rebounds. Very patient, maintains good concentration, able to block out distractions. Incredible glove hand.

WEAKNESSES: Relatively poor on shots along the right post. Goes down very soon; sometimes can be beaten high. Most vulnerable on five-hole shots. Average puck-handling and skating, and will sometimes get caught out of his net.

Martin Brodeur

STYLE: Hybrid. Brodeur is not a typical Quebec butterfly goaltender.

STRENGTHS: Possesses great reflexes; in particular, an outstanding glove hand. Has strong positional play, and is rarely caught out of position. Good focus; plays well in games with low shot totals. Many people consider Martin to be the best puckhandling goaltender of all time - he is like having a third defenseman on the ice. Great disposition, and has the ability to dominate a game.

WEAKNESSES: Can wear down after playing as many regular-season games as he does; prior to the 2003 Stanley Cup, this was the conventional wisdom. Susceptible to low shots and wraparound shots. Tends to put rebounds back into the middle of the ice, although he has improved over the years in this regard.

Dominik Hasek

STYLE: Flopper, very unorthodox. Plays the angles.

STRENGTHS: Excellent concentration, and very strong when given a clear view of the puck. Tremendous foot speed. Likes to see the first shot, and has good control of rebounds. In goalmouth scrambles, will often drop his stick and grab the puck with his blocker hand. Unflappable, and always prepared.

WEAKNESSES: Very unusual goaltending habits. If he's off his game, his style hurts him. Absolutely brutal with the stick.

Ed Belfour

STYLE: Butterfly / standup hybrid.

STRENGTHS: Technically strong. Extremely quick, great desire. Aggressive and very acrobatic. Very stubborn; has an undeniable belief in himself. Trememdous work ethic, and maintains his focus, despite rarely seeing a large number of shots. Maintains good control of rebounds and takes away the low part of the net; in fact, Belfour's nearly impossible to beat low. Good puckhandler and skater - passing skills are top-notch, but he shows restraint in shooting the puck down the ice.

WEAKNESSES: Vulnerable to shots at the top corners. Known for his volatile temper, and there's still the sense that he can be rattled easily and knocked off his game. Ed once had a reputation for failing in big games, but his recent play has demonstrated differently.

All info taken from Hockey Goalies

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04-01-2013, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Dominik Hasek had the best appreciation of vertical angles of all goalies since the 1967 expansion.
Agreed - just because contemporary viewers didn't know what he was doing, that doesn't mean that he didn't know what he was doing.

Vertical angles are very tricky (and are different from horizontal angles), for two reasons - the puck nearly always has to come off of the ice, so the puck's view of the net is an upwards-facing cone. The shooter's eyes nearly always are looking down towards the net, so the eye's view of the net is a downwards-facing cone.

The best goaltenders not only know what the puck is seeing, but what the shooter is seeing, and vertically, this is a challenge. My belief is that Hasek showed shooters exactly what he wanted them to see (lots of open net), and showed the puck exactly what he wanted it to see (not much).

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04-01-2013, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Agreed - just because contemporary viewers didn't know what he was doing, that doesn't mean that he didn't know what he was doing.

Vertical angles are very tricky (and are different from horizontal angles), for two reasons - the puck nearly always has to come off of the ice, so the puck's view of the net is an upwards-facing cone. The shooter's eyes nearly always are looking down towards the net, so the eye's view of the net is a downwards-facing cone.

The best goaltenders not only know what the puck is seeing, but what the shooter is seeing, and vertically, this is a challenge. My belief is that Hasek showed shooters exactly what he wanted them to see (lots of open net), and showed the puck exactly what he wanted it to see (not much).

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04-01-2013, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Dominik Hasek had the best appreciation of vertical angles of all goalies since the 1967 expansion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Agreed - just because contemporary viewers didn't know what he was doing, that doesn't mean that he didn't know what he was doing.
Yes well said Taco, and as C58 alludes to & I commented on earlier, Hasek played vertically, thought the game that way, a style & technique of goaltending that was in fact widely employed pre-67, Plante with the innovations of Stand-Up, Hall with the Butterfly, the way the position was being played changing, the slapshot predicating much of it. Hasek deeper in the crease, reliance far more on innate reflex & acrobatics'. Basically a highwire act without a net.... just try & get your head around that one.

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04-01-2013, 11:36 AM
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I was talking about horizontal angles. Hasek's positioning on those was worse than others.

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04-01-2013, 11:43 AM
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Horizontal Angles

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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I was talking about horizontal angles. Hasek's positioning on those was worse than others.
Dominik Hasek was better than the others on horizontal angles as well especially his ability to adjust to LHS/RHS changes.

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04-01-2013, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by 87center View Post
Maybe. Although, if we take a look at some scouting reports from the hockey goalies website it seems that for all their brilliance they were not without some weaknesses. What do you think of the reports? Accurate, semi-accurate?


Curtis Joseph

STYLE: Combination standup - butterfly.

STRENGTHS: Has a reputation for being a clutch performer. Plays angles well. Very good breakaway goaltender. Recovers well for rebounds. Strong stick-handler. Good skater.

WEAKNESSES: Vulnerable to shots along either post. Poor lateral movement. Has a hot head at times.
I didn't think Cujo was that much of a "hot head" at all other than that famous play where he flipped out at the ref, which was completely out of character for him.

The key with Cujo was he was a battler and scrambler. He'd fight tooth and nail to put a body part in front of a puck. He had a really weird, "retro" style of closing his five hole, closing his legs and swiveling his legs to cut off direct access for the puck to pass. His puckhandling was kind of awkward as he had to switch hands. He had a long bomb of an outlet pass but he wasn't particularly a factor as Brodeur was.

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04-01-2013, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Dominik Hasek was better than the others on horizontal angles as well especially his ability to adjust to LHS/RHS changes.
Ya it was pretty obvious this guy was a serious student of how the game had been played, was being played contemporaneously to his own era. When he was "on" well, good luck trying to get anything by him, he'd get right into the oppositions heads early, causing them to grip their sticks a lot harder than they should be, releasing shots hastily. Deliberately orchestrated chaos.... hauling even the best, the most prolific goalscorers in the league out of the water & their comfort zones, onto the beach gasping, mindless jellyfish.... one or five things, ok, like prolly a dozen or more I didnt like about Hasek's game, room for improvement, included the Verticle Angles, he often overshooting the mark by inches (yes, Im that fussy, particular) & sometimes feet when moving out towards the shooter & no way even with razor sharp reflexes can a shot be stopped when your caught so badly out of position unless your names Roger Rabbit and youve got expandable arms & legs. He also couldve been a lot better with his stick in playing the puck, weak shot, several other details, nuances, things that couldve been done better, but as it was, none too shabby huh?

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04-01-2013, 01:58 PM
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I didn't think Cujo was that much of a "hot head" at all other than that famous play where he flipped out at the ref, which was completely out of character for him.
Since that came from my site originally, I'll speak up - I wouldn't put him in the Hextall or Wakaluk camp, but he had his moments. No odd numbers in his end-of-season penalty minute totals.

If I had to peg the comment, I probably wrote it in 2001 or so. I'd consider revising it down a notch.

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04-02-2013, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Since that came from my site originally, I'll speak up - I wouldn't put him in the Hextall or Wakaluk camp, but he had his moments. No odd numbers in his end-of-season penalty minute totals.

If I had to peg the comment, I probably wrote it in 2001 or so. I'd consider revising it down a notch.
You know what, I don't remember him ever being that 'fiery'. Belfour certainly had his moments, and Felix Potvin was kind of funny, because he was usually as cool as they'd come, except against Hextall, and against Detroit with Ciccarelli, but Cujo was usually pretty calm. He was a battler in the nets, but I never thought he played with that much of a snarl.

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04-02-2013, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
The best goaltenders not only know what the puck is seeing, but what the shooter is seeing, and vertically, this is a challenge. My belief is that Hasek showed shooters exactly what he wanted them to see (lots of open net), and showed the puck exactly what he wanted it to see (not much).
I'm stealing this to use in the future.

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04-03-2013, 10:52 AM
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Failed at what? It`s an opinion dude. It`s not a historical fact that Cujo had the best glove in the history of hockey. One could make a good argument for Roy or even Brodeur. That said, Cujo might very well have the best glove hand if a poll was created with all three net-minders in it.
Actually, and "in my opinion" as its impossible to actually prove, but just based on what Ive seen over 50yrs of playing the position myself & watching very closely, Id have to say that Grant Fuhr had the best glove hand Ive ever seen, Sawchuk a close second, Joseph & Roy not far behind. HOWEVER, in shorter bursts as their career arc's werent as long, Casey and a few others were certainly "up there" in terms of lightning fast reaction times when seriously pressed. Dryden as well. Incredible glove hand. Just wasnt flashy about it.

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04-03-2013, 11:54 AM
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Yes agreed. That was a top-notch post and as a goalie I wish I had been articulate enough to say it myself .

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04-03-2013, 12:31 PM
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Actually, and "in my opinion" as its impossible to actually prove, but just based on what Ive seen over 50yrs of playing the position myself & watching very closely, Id have to say that Grant Fuhr had the best glove hand Ive ever seen, Sawchuk a close second, Joseph & Roy not far behind. HOWEVER, in shorter bursts as their career arc's werent as long, Casey and a few others were certainly "up there" in terms of lightning fast reaction times when seriously pressed. Dryden as well. Incredible glove hand. Just wasnt flashy about it.
Dude, you're forgetting Allan Bester. He made the NHL almost solely on just the strength of his glove hand.

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04-03-2013, 12:36 PM
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Thanks, all - it took me a few years to come up with it, and I find that young goalies really take to the concept. Plus it gets them thinking about angles in a different way, and it makes it a bit of fun to try to "trick" the shooters (on the other hand, I was on the ice today, and right before I gave up this one goal, I saw this look in the shooter's eye and realized that he knew that I was genuinely leaving open the far side, so it can go both ways ). Of course, the more you work on the concept, the easier it becomes, but I'm likely not coaching any future Haseks.

One thing to add about vertical angles, and Hasek in particular. Not only are the shooter's eyes usually coming from crossbar height or higher, so are most of the TV cameras. I think that this added to Hasek's mystique, because (like the shooters) we oftentimes saw a lot of open net, and then the puck would just get saved somehow. I'm sure that this influenced the "Hasek is lucky" theory.

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