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The Luongo Thread: Just The Beginning (mod warning in post #445)

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Old
04-03-2013, 11:06 AM
  #101
Garth Butcher
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oy SN is still trying to trade kipper. "he's the best goalie option out there"

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04-03-2013, 11:06 AM
  #102
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Three hours from a final take on the goalie situation.


My long standing belief is that they should have moved Schneider and would have probably put us in a better situation last year and this one to win a cup if they had done so. I am not sure it's possible to go back to Luongo now, but that for sure was the best move the team could have made prior to Game 4 of the playoffs.

Very hard to argue otherwise.

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04-03-2013, 11:07 AM
  #103
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Exactly, its a depreciating asset...

A 2nd is nothing to sneeze at in a deep draft.

Get the picks and use it to upgrade the roster....
A second has 82% of providing no meaningful impact player. It's a damn coin flip. Even if we did get someone decent, he is not "upgrading the roster" for 3-4 years.

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04-03-2013, 11:07 AM
  #104
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No, we do not HAVE to deal Luongo at the trade deadline, nor do we HAVE to give Luongo to the Leafs for garbage. We can just as easily watch the Leafs goaltending implode in round 1 which could put more urgency on Nonis to go out and actually give something good for Luongo at the draft.
No, you don't have to deal him at the deadline.

Of course people said Leafs goaltending would be terrible all year, and that hasn't happened. What happens if Leafs goaltending is reasonable or steals game in round 1? Then what? The Leafs making the playoffs is a bonus at this point, nobody really expected this, and there are zero expectations of the team.

There will be an increased number of available Goalies in the offseason, so the market isn't getting any better, and likely going to be even more challenging. The Leafs won't have a MacArthur to trade at that point, so their available assets will be even less, and likely Nonis will be even less inclined to make a deal. If Nonis wasn't willing to meet the asking price this past summer, then a few bad games in the playoffs, is not going to change the perception of the good season Reimer has had. Heck, Luongo had a pretty bad playoffs last year, where Schneider replaced him permanently as the #1 goalie. I think most would argue that such a small sample of bad games by Luongo in last years playoffs doesn't change that he is a very good, to elite goalie.

I would like Luongo on the Leafs, but if the cost is too high, I'm perfectly happy with moving forward as is. Reimer's results have been impressive so far.

Vancouver needs to make a trade at some point, and the return continues to deteriorate. This is business, there isn't a need to be emotional about the return, or the discussion of returns.

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04-03-2013, 11:08 AM
  #105
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A second has 82% of providing no meaningful impact player. It's a damn coin flip. Even if we did get someone decent, he is not "upgrading the roster" for 3-4 years.
didn't we use a 2nd to get roy?

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04-03-2013, 11:08 AM
  #106
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At this point, take the best offer available as long as it returns a top 12 forward or a top 7 dman (if a 7, has to be a proven right side guy).

An effective 4th line forward that sees 8 minutes a game brings more to the team from here on out than Luongo sitting on the bench does. If we go into the playoffs with nearly $10m of Luongo and Ballard not getting on the ice I won't be impressed with Gillis.

Gillis played this tough, but if he hasn't been able to wring out that little bit of extra value, I doubt waiting for the draft will change that. Might mean getting a 1st instead of a 2nd, but no player for this playoff run and probably no prospect. Don't need a homerun at this point, just get on base Gillis.

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04-03-2013, 11:10 AM
  #107
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At this point, take the best offer available as long as it returns a top 12 forward or a top 7 dman (if a 7, has to be a proven right side guy).
What if the best deal on the table is equivalent to what we gave up for Roy - a 2nd and a mediocre prospect?

 
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04-03-2013, 11:11 AM
  #108
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oy SN is still trying to trade kipper. "he's the best goalie option out there"
I thought Kipper announced he wouldn't take a trade.

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04-03-2013, 11:12 AM
  #109
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No, you don't have to deal him at the deadline.

Of course people said Leafs goaltending would be terrible all year, and that hasn't happened. What happens if Leafs goaltending is reasonable or steals game in round 1? Then what? The Leafs making the playoffs is a bonus at this point, nobody really expected this, and there are zero expectations of the team.

There will be an increased number of available Goalies in the offseason, so the market isn't getting any better, and likely going to be even more challenging. The Leafs won't have a MacArthur to trade at that point, so their available assets will be even less, and likely Nonis will be even less inclined to make a deal. If Nonis wasn't willing to meet the asking price this past summer, then a few bad games in the playoffs, is not going to change the perception of the good season Reimer has had. Heck, Luongo had a pretty bad playoffs last year, where Schneider replaced him permanently as the #1 goalie. I think most would argue that such a small sample of bad games by Luongo in last years playoffs doesn't change that he is a very good, to elite goalie.

I would like Luongo on the Leafs, but if the cost is too high, I'm perfectly happy with moving forward as is. Reimer's results have been impressive so far.

Vancouver needs to make a trade at some point, and the return continues to deteriorate. This is business, there isn't a need to be emotional about the return, or the discussion of returns.
I read that every year and every year it is false. Toronto has been a revolving door for goalies and we've been told that Raycroft, the Monster, Reimer Scrivens etc are the answer. I'm still doubtful that half a good season by Reimer after last year's disaster proves anything.
Keeping the emotion out of it is a good thing. Does acquiring Macarthur for Luongo make us a better team?
In my view the answer is a clear no. In that case, you hand onto Luongo and deal him in the summer. Gillis only makes a deal that improves the tam. Otherwise having two great goalies going into the playoffs is the move to make.
Toronto needs to upgrade in net at some point. We'll see how this plays out in the summer.

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04-03-2013, 11:13 AM
  #110
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The biggest asset in any luongo deal is cap space. And for the leafs luongo instantly makes them a contender. When the leafs make the deal the detractors will turn into fans.

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04-03-2013, 11:13 AM
  #111
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What if the best deal on the table is equivalent to what we gave up for Roy - a 2nd and a mediocre prospect?

and how do we know we will get much more in the offseason?

will a team trade a 1st for luongo at the draft?

5 + million on the bench at the playoffs....

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04-03-2013, 11:15 AM
  #112
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and how do we know we will get much more in the offseason?
Is that a round about way of answering "yes" to the question?

 
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04-03-2013, 11:15 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
and how do we know we will get much more in the offseason?

will a team trade a 1st for luongo at the draft?

5 + million on the bench at the playoffs....
I agree with this. You simply cannot have 5.3 million in assets as a safety net. You need depth for the inevitable injuries

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04-03-2013, 11:16 AM
  #114
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Is that a round about way of answering "yes" to the question?
what do you mean?

I've already posted that we should take the futures and move on....

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04-03-2013, 11:16 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
Three hours from a final take on the goalie situation.


My long standing belief is that they should have moved Schneider and would have probably put us in a better situation last year and this one to win a cup if they had done so. I am not sure it's possible to go back to Luongo now, but that for sure was the best move the team could have made prior to Game 4 of the playoffs.

Very hard to argue otherwise.
Ummm, no it's not. Trading CS would be completely asinine.

Quote:
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What if the best deal on the table is equivalent to what we gave up for Roy - a 2nd and a mediocre prospect?
Then it doesn't include "at least a top 12 forward or a top 7 dman" and we're better off keeping the roster player (ie Luongo) for insurance purposes.

But if Luongo can't garner even a bottom 6 forward with that package it would speak volumes to how little value Luongo has and we'd all need to start accepting that waiving him for compliance reasons may be the final outcome.

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04-03-2013, 11:17 AM
  #116
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didn't we use a 2nd to get roy?
And? Unless we're getting picks to than deal for Pominville or Cammalleri, it's pointless to trade Luongo now. We can dump him for a pick pretty much any time.

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04-03-2013, 11:18 AM
  #117
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Then it doesn't include "at least a top 12 forward or a top 7 dman" and we're better off keeping the roster player (ie Luongo) for insurance purposes.

But if Luongo can't garner even a bottom 6 forward with that package it would speak volumes to how little value Luongo has and we'd all need to start accepting that waiving him for compliance reasons may be the final outcome.
Gotcha. Don't agree or disagree - was just wondering where you were at.

 
Old
04-03-2013, 11:19 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
And? Unless we're getting picks to than deal for Pominville or Cammalleri, it's pointless to trade Luongo now. We can dump him for a pick pretty much any time.

and? you asked how does a 2nd help us upgrade the roster now.

I said we can use it as a trade chip. And clearly a 2nd has value.


How is it pointless to trade luongo? We can get a 2nd to for future Or use it as a trade chip, or we have 5 million on the bench.

A 2nd clearly has value.

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04-03-2013, 11:20 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by alternate View Post
At this point, take the best offer available as long as it returns a top 12 forward or a top 7 dman (if a 7, has to be a proven right side guy).

An effective 4th line forward that sees 8 minutes a game brings more to the team from here on out than Luongo sitting on the bench does. If we go into the playoffs with nearly $10m of Luongo and Ballard not getting on the ice I won't be impressed with Gillis.

Gillis played this tough, but if he hasn't been able to wring out that little bit of extra value, I doubt waiting for the draft will change that. Might mean getting a 1st instead of a 2nd, but no player for this playoff run and probably no prospect. Don't need a homerun at this point, just get on base Gillis.
So you would trade Roberto Luongo for Colton Orr if that was the best offer right now?

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04-03-2013, 11:22 AM
  #120
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and? you asked how does a 2nd help us upgrade the roster now.

I said we can use it as a trade chip. And clearly a 2nd has value.


How is it pointless to trade luongo? We can get a 2nd to for future Or use it as a trade chip, or we have 5 million on the bench.

A 2nd clearly has value.
Having $5 million on the bench for the playoffs as an insurance policy is only a bad thing if you could use the money elsewhere. I don't see us picking up a $5 million player today.

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04-03-2013, 11:22 AM
  #121
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I read that every year and every year it is false.
Keeping the emotion out of it is a good thing. Does acquirung Macarthur for Luongo make us a better team?
In my view the answer is a clear no. In that case, you hand onto Luongo and deal him in the summer. Gillis only makes a deal that improves the tam. Otherwise having two great goalies going into the playoffs is the move to make.
Toronto needs to upgrade in net at some point. We'll see how this plays out in the summer.
Yes, MacArthur does make you a better playoff team. His PPG would be the FOURTH/FIFTH highest on your team THIS year. He has 17 points in 30 games, .57 PPG.

Only Sedin, Sedin and Hansen have better PPG of players who have played much of the season. Kesler has higher as well, but very small sample.

Plus MacArthur is much more than just points, he works very hard. Outside of Daniel, I doubt there is a winger on the Canucks lineup who has more points than Clarke the last three years. 62, 41, 17. He is a valuable asset.

There is no question to me, that Vancouver needs to make a goalie trade, much more than Toronto needs to make a goalie trade. Reimer is 10-1-4 in the last 15 games. Would any Goalie in the world have done much better, really? How much better, and how much is winning one extra OT game worth? To many Leafs fans, it is debateable if a trade is needed at all. I do think Luongo makes us a very good team, "if" we hold onto key assets. If we have to give up more than this, it just doesn't make sense to us. Sorry.

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04-03-2013, 11:23 AM
  #122
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A second has 82% of providing no meaningful impact player. It's a damn coin flip. Even if we did get someone decent, he is not "upgrading the roster" for 3-4 years.
Do you even know what a coin flip is?




Anyway, Luongo probably won't be moved. Gillis is quite patient.. but maybe he cracks?

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04-03-2013, 11:24 AM
  #123
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Yes, MacArthur does make you a better playoff team. His PPG would be the FOURTH/FIFTH highest on your team THIS year. He has 17 points in 30 games, .57 PPG.

Only Sedin, Sedin and Hansen have better PPG of players who have played much of the season. Kesler has higher as well, but very small sample.

Plus MacArthur is much more than just points, he works very hard. Outside of Daniel, I doubt there is a winger on the Canucks lineup who has more points than Clarke the last three years. 62, 41, 17. He is a valuable asset.
Nope. We have tons of tweeners like MacArthur. He doesn't improve the team at all. In fact his production has declined quite steadily from his one real good year. With Kesler and Roy on the team he's about 7th highest on the tam and that assumes that the points he gets in Toronto's offence translate to a defensive team like the Canucks. Unlikely.
The fact that he has more points on a more offensive team like the Leafs is irrelevant to me. Not interested in another tweener. I'd rather keep two great goalies for a playoff run and trade Luongo in the summer. Our goal should be to ice the best team possible. Not help the Leafs get a legitimate starting goalie. If someone offers something that improves the team then I'm all ears.


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04-03-2013, 11:25 AM
  #124
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I would rather Frattin than Kulemin or MacArthur. Toss in Scrivens and a 2nd and end this saga already.

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04-03-2013, 11:30 AM
  #125
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I would rather Frattin than Kulemin or MacArthur. Toss in Scrivens and a 2nd and end this saga already.
The pick HAS to be a 1st rounder.

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