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The Luongo Thread: Just The Beginning (mod warning in post #445)

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04-03-2013, 12:11 PM
  #176
Barney Gumble
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
How many people believe Higgins won't help us come playoff time? Comparable forward to MacArthur.
Probably because we already have Higgins and the Leafs aren't going to give away MacArthur for free.

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04-03-2013, 12:12 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
Ok, I said last three seasons, and you've gone beyond that when MacArthur wasn't on the Leafs.

MacArthur is on a 47 point pace this season, and has more PPG than Burrows this season. You call MacArthur's good season of 62 points an aberration, but then count Burrows 67 point season, and he hasn't come close to that since.

The bottom line is Burrows is your most productive winger, not named Sedin.

MacArthur is FAR more productive than the rest of the wingers, even if we agreed that Burrows and MacA aren't too far apart.

If we want to go with the argument that MacA's numbers are inflated, because he plays on an offensive team, what does it say about our desperate need to upgrade in net, when Reimer has a better SV percentage than Luongo?

Most analysts agree that the Luongo trade isn't going to net great assets, and that Gillis has asked for too much. The only people who do, are a few Vancouver fans, and I can understand the emotional attachment. A number of the people on TSN are agreeing, Gillis has backed himself in a corner here.
Well said.

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04-03-2013, 12:12 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
We'd still get a second or third then, therefore having the insurance now makes more sense than selling Lu for nothing. Regardless, you are arguing for argument's sake here. If we can get Pominville, Cammalleri or whoever by trading the pieces acquired from Lu, then by all means, go for it. If not then it's a waste.
so its not meaningless then.. which is what you said..

good done here..

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04-03-2013, 12:12 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
MacArthur is an upgrade to the top 9. Look at our roster right now. Everyone looks at the roster on paper with no injuries but the reality is there will be guys hurt come playoff time and that's where added depth is a must.

How many people believe Higgins won't help us come playoff time? Comparable forward to MacArthur.
Of course Higgins helps us. As do Hansen, Raymond and as would Booth. The question is do we need another tweener who is not that big and just adds to those we already have.
And that's only one side of it. Is the addition of a MacArthur greater than the loss of Luongo for the playoffs. The capsavings from moving Luongo don't help us unless we're going out and acquiring a $5 million player today.

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04-03-2013, 12:13 PM
  #181
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work... of... art.
I appreciate a sense of humour in here, that's for sure.

Things are tense in here.

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04-03-2013, 12:13 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
Again, Luongo is not an All-Star goalie anymore and hasn't been since 2009. Do you consider Nikolai Khabibulin an All-Star goalie? It's not once an All-Star always an All-Star...
Luongo finished Top 3 in Vezina voting in 10-11. He was 4th in 08-09. There's really nothing to backup that Luongo has regressed.

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04-03-2013, 12:14 PM
  #183
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Im glad that in 2 hours ill not have to hear luongo trade talk until july.
The rumours will stop but the talk will not.

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Old
04-03-2013, 12:15 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
so its not meaningless then.. which is what you said..

good done here..


You never mentioned that until I brought it up. You just said deal Lu for an "upgrade" with no context. What I said is if we can't subsequently flip that pick for something useful, it's pointless.

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04-03-2013, 12:18 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
There's a difference between unloading a bad contract for a depth player and trading a top 10 goalie with a very long contract.

Sometimes teams wait until the very last moment before offering up something good.
The lockout ended just before Bettman was close to announcing the entire season would be lost. (because of that sponsorship deal for the minimum number of games played in a season)
Clearly there is a difference thats why Im not saying Van needs to add to make someone take the contract as Luo still has some value, just not as much value as some people in this thread think i.e top prospect, 1st rd pick etc. Obviously that would be the price if Luo was say signed for 2-3 more years, but because of his contract that return goes down to mediocre prospects / picks IMO.

How come my post was deleted, are people not allowed to have different opinions on the Canucks board?? suggesting Luo's contract is bad is against the rules now??

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Old
04-03-2013, 12:18 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Probably because we already have Higgins and the Leafs aren't going to give away MacArthur for free.
But it's this notion a 20 goal, 40-50 point forward can't help us I can't wrap my head around. Didn't any of these people watch the cup finals? Boston having 20 goal scorers littered throughout their top 9 was huge for them.

We want more scoring but as long as they're not 20 goalscorers? Don't get it.

The Canucks need a piece for now and something for the future. MacArthur/Frattin and picks or prospects makes sense for us IMO. Certainly better than not upgrading the forward group and getting less in return this summer.

Luongo's value peaks in 90 minutes. No reason to wait beyond that deadline.

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04-03-2013, 12:18 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post


You never mentioned that until I brought it up. You just said deal Lu for a second with no context.
because I needed to explain a 2nd can be used to pick a prospect Or it can be used as a trade chip?

lol....like I said done, we clearly don't disagree..

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04-03-2013, 12:20 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
Even more dubious to marginalize any Leaf players point totals because they play an "offensive" style.

What a joke. Ron Wilson is gone and I wouldn't call the Vancouver Canucks the epitome of a "defensive" team either.

A few months ago Luongo was such a terrific asset because he played on team that lacked a defensive mindset and held them in games.

Let's be real.
Sorry but the facts don't back you up. Toronto is tied for the 3rd most offensive team in the NHL behind Chicago and Pittsburgh. In 36 games they have scored 21 more goals than the Canucks. There is simply no way that thier offensive stats translate to this version of the Canucks. And it's not even close.

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04-03-2013, 12:22 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Of course Higgins helps us. As do Hansen, Raymond and as would Booth.
So Booth would help us but MacArthur wouldn't? Don't get it.

Just because we have 20 goal scorers doesn't mean adding more 20 goal scorers doesn't improve the team. The Canucks have 2 high end centremen - that doesn't mean Roy is redundant...

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04-03-2013, 12:22 PM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
But it's this notion a 20 goal, 40-50 point forward can't help us I can't wrap my head around. Didn't any of these people watch the cup finals? Boston having 20 goal scorers littered throughout their top 9 was huge for them.

We want more scoring but as long as they're not 20 goalscorers? Don't get it.

The Canucks need a piece for now and something for the future. MacArthur/Frattin and picks or prospects makes sense for us IMO. Certainly better than not upgrading the forward group and getting less in return this summer.

Luongo's value peaks in 90 minutes. No reason to wait beyond that deadline.
Agreed on most. This notion that the Canucks should only be seeking a gamebreaking or elite forward is ridiculous. Depth is very important for a long playoff run. The Canucks now have three very solid centers in Henrik, Kesler and Roy, why not try to fill the line-up with solid wingers?

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Old
04-03-2013, 12:22 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
But it's this notion a 20 goal, 40-50 point forward can't help us I can't wrap my head around. Didn't any of these people watch the cup finals? Boston having 20 goal scorers littered throughout their top 9 was huge for them.

We want more scoring but as long as they're not 20 goalscorers? Don't get it.

The Canucks need a piece for now and something for the future. MacArthur/Frattin and picks or prospects makes sense for us IMO. Certainly better than not upgrading the forward group and getting less in return this summer.

Luongo's value peaks in 90 minutes. No reason to wait beyond that deadline.
Who's the backup goalie in case Schneider gets hurt? I'd take one less 20 goal man to have two starting goalies. Obviously you feel different - so we'll have to agree to disagree here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
Depth is very important for a long playoff run.
Guess that's why the Pens got Vokoun.

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04-03-2013, 12:22 PM
  #192
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Goaltenders are very strangely valued in the NHL. Whoever trades for an elite goalie wins the trade. Luongo is more proven as a factor in his team winning than Rick Nash, Brad Richards and numerous after highly sought forwards. G.M.'s trade quality assets for these type players but will not give up anything for a proven goalie? What was Eddie Belfour traded for when he went to the leafs? not enough that is for sure.

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04-03-2013, 12:24 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Sorry but the facts don't back you up. Toronto is tied for the 3rd most offensive team in the NHL behind Chicago and Pittsburgh. In 36 games they have scored 21 more goals than the Canucks. There is simply no way that thier offensive stats translate to this version of the Canucks. And it's not even close.
Randy Carlyle is a defense 1st coach. The Leafs are outscoring the Canucks because of Vancouver's injury problems. Look at our scoring the last 2 years when the forward corps was healthier.

You're saying Luongo is a downgrade for them this season. Can't have it both ways.

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04-03-2013, 12:24 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Guess that's why the Pens got Vokoun.
Because MAF proved to be a flake last post-season.

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04-03-2013, 12:25 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
But it's this notion a 20 goal, 40-50 point forward can't help us I can't wrap my head around. Didn't any of these people watch the cup finals? Boston having 20 goal scorers littered throughout their top 9 was huge for them.

We want more scoring but as long as they're not 20 goalscorers? Don't get it.

The Canucks need a piece for now and something for the future. MacArthur/Frattin and picks or prospects makes sense for us IMO. Certainly better than not upgrading the forward group and getting less in return this summer.

Luongo's value peaks in 90 minutes. No reason to wait beyond that deadline.
Frattin is an intriguing piece as he brings size and has lots of room to improve. A much different trade than getting a tweener like MacArthur on a rental deal.

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04-03-2013, 12:26 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Who's the backup goalie in case Schneider gets hurt? I'd take one less 20 goal man to have two starting goalies. Obviously you feel different - so we'll have to agree to disagree here.
So would you trade one of the Canucks 20 goalscorers next year at the deadline to acquire a high end backup?

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04-03-2013, 12:26 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
Because MAF proved to be a flake last post-season.
He's either hot or cold. But fact remains, they got insurance despite all the firepower up front. I ask you, who do we have as insurance (or depth as you like to call it) in net?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
So would you trade one of the Canucks 20 goalscorers next year at the deadline to acquire a high end backup?
You acquire that backup goalie in the off-season - you don't deal away the insurance at the trading deadline.

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04-03-2013, 12:27 PM
  #198
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Ok, I said last three seasons, and you've gone beyond that when MacArthur wasn't on the Leafs.
Yes, you were cherry picking statistics to include MacArthur's best season whilst eliminating Burrows'. Perhaps it would have been more fair to go off last season and this season, dropping both? Burrows still holds the offensive edge, even then.

Quote:
MacArthur is on a 47 point pace this season, and has more PPG than Burrows this season. You call MacArthur's good season of 62 points an aberration, but then count Burrows 67 point season, and he hasn't come close to that since.
Mason Raymond, Jannik Hansen and Chris Higgins are also on similar paces. We need an upgrade, not more of the same. You are also ignoring that Burrows has consistently provided his level of offense for five years, whereas MacArthur has not come close to replicating his career season.

Quote:
The bottom line is Burrows is your most productive winger, not named Sedin.
No argument here.

Quote:
MacArthur is FAR more productive than the rest of the wingers, even if we agreed that Burrows and MacA aren't too far apart.
Not true. His career best perhaps outstrips Hansen, Raymond and Higgins, but his typical production over the course of his career is roughly on par.

Quote:
If we want to go with the argument that MacA's numbers are inflated, because he plays on an offensive team, what does it say about our desperate need to upgrade in net, when Reimer has a better SV percentage than Luongo?
I never made any assertion about MacArthur's stats being inflated, merely that his career season was an aberration. If you think Reimer is a better goaltender than Luongo, that is your prerogative. I would disagree with that assessment, though.

Quote:
Most analysts agree that the Luongo trade isn't going to net great assets, and that Gillis has asked for too much. The only people who do, are a few Vancouver fans, and I can understand the emotional attachment. A number of the people on TSN are agreeing, Gillis has backed himself in a corner here.
The objectivity of these analysts is dubious in the eyes of many in Canuck nation, mine included. If they are indeed accurate in their depiction of the market for Luongo right now, I would fall in lime with most of my Canuck brethren and hold onto him until that changes. We are in no great hurry.

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04-03-2013, 12:27 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Randy Carlyle is a defense 1st coach. The Leafs are outscoring the Canucks because of Vancouver's injury problems. Look at our scoring the last 2 years when the forward corps was healthier.

You're saying Luongo is a downgrade for them this season. Can't have it both ways.
???
No, I'm saying Luongo is a huge upgrade for them this season. I don't know where you got that I said he was a downgrade.

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04-03-2013, 12:28 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
He's either hot or cold. But fact remains, they got insurance despite all the firepower up front. I ask you, who do we have as insurance (or depth as you like to call it) in net?
So what's more important for playoff success, scoring depth, or a quality back-up goaltender? I would say throughout history, the former trumps the latter and it's not even close.

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