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Zagrapan or Ryder???

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Old
04-17-2005, 08:26 AM
  #1
Whitesnake
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Zagrapan or Ryder???

I don't know much about these two but I hear their names a lot lately, besides seeing Zagrapan on the news and he's really impressive, who would you choose between those two come draft day. And if we pick around 12 to 16 is it too early to pick between those two.

And isn't it time to pick a canadian player that will surely do well at the next Junior Champs and do a Carter out of himself like Ryder could do or is there another sureshot player that could do just that and can be around when we pick.

Do we go North American to build character or do we go European to have pure skill...

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04-17-2005, 08:53 AM
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Daniel Ryder won't go in the first round due to his average skating and his *lack of size*. He should be a steal for any team that get him in the 2nd round.

Zagrapan should go in the 5-15 range. I've seen this guy play a lot of time live and he's just a Alex Zhamnov clone. He's patient with the puck, he's an amazing playmaker and has some unreal move. He has great skating but he prefers to slow down with the puck.

I think that the nationality really doesn't matter, we NEED to pick a defenseman. Our prospect depth at every forward position is great, if we draft in the Top 15, Staal or Parent should be ours...

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04-17-2005, 11:11 AM
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Ryder probably won't go that high and there are plenty of other prospects around that Montreal should take instead.

My list:
1. Ryan Parent (50/50 chance he's still there when Montreal picks)
2. Ryan O'Marra (more than likely gone at this point)
3. Marc Staal (good chance Montreal ends up with either him or Parent)
4. Luc Bourdon (with a defensive heavy first round, he could still be there)
5. Matt Lashoff (same as Bourdon)
6. Jakub Kindl (I had him ranked higher this year... If he plays with more confidence and uses the talent he has, he could end up being the best defenceman taken in '05)

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04-17-2005, 11:15 AM
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Where we're picking in the 1st round I wouldn't pick either of them. Granted, I haven't seen Zagrapan enough to be sure on him, but I don't see him as a real gamebreaking talent, and I think we have enough 2nd-line-ish purely offensive guys around on the team and in the system that he's not a player I would be thinking about on draft day.

As for Ryder, I like him well enough, he seems to have a good blend of attributes, and might top out similar to Higgins as a prospect, if he can keep pulling it all together. That's pretty good, IMO. I don't know if it will be best available where we're picking, though, and I get the impression that he will be picked much lower... enough so that I'd rather wait and see if he's there in the 2nd round than spend the 1st rounder on him.

Generally speaking, I'd be watching for some D, or some bigger, grittier players in the draft, and I think that both of those will actually be available to us wherever we happen to be picking.

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04-17-2005, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theo6060
Ryder probably won't go that high and there are plenty of other prospects around that Montreal should take instead.

My list:
1. Ryan Parent (50/50 chance he's still there when Montreal picks)
2. Ryan O'Marra (more than likely gone at this point)
3. Marc Staal (good chance Montreal ends up with either him or Parent)
4. Luc Bourdon (with a defensive heavy first round, he could still be there)
5. Matt Lashoff (same as Bourdon)
6. Jakub Kindl (I had him ranked higher this year... If he plays with more confidence and uses the talent he has, he could end up being the best defenceman taken in '05)
Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I looked again very carefully at O'Marra during the last two U-18 games for Canada and I still stand by my first evaluation. Hard worker, good skater, strong and fearless, doesn't mind crashing the net, but lacks hockey sense and doesn't have soft enough hands to make me think he'll ever be anything else than a checker at the NHL level. I would pass on him unless we draft late 1st.

Staal I'm sold on, Bourdon I like him more and more every time I see him play, and Parent is as safe as they come. He'll become a defensive stalwart, but probably not much else. The other 2 I'd pass.

Setoguchi, Bourret and Staal are definitelly my top-3 for the Habs this year, honorable mention to Latendresse.

As for Ryder, as it's been mentioned, he should go early 2nd round, so if we really want him, we can trade down, and Zagrapan for some reason I don't like at all.

An other player I didn't get the opportunity to see before is Bergfors. He really impressed me yesterday. Nice wheels and puck control, great hands and vision, and he was pretty aggressive out there.

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04-17-2005, 12:10 PM
  #6
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I think we should draft a big defenseman in the 1st round. Deveraux Hesmatpour Seriously I think that Staal would be our best option if we pick a defenseman. I'd be happy with Parent and Bourdon tho. They played good for team Canada so I would have no problem drafting them.

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04-17-2005, 01:22 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchausen
Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I looked again very carefully at O'Marra during the last two U-18 games for Canada and I still stand by my first evaluation. Hard worker, good skater, strong and fearless, doesn't mind crashing the net, but lacks hockey sense and doesn't have soft enough hands to make me think he'll ever be anything else than a checker at the NHL level. I would pass on him unless we draft late 1st.
I'm quite surprised you're so down on Ryan O'Marra. Every time I've seen him he looks to me like he's got very soft hands and a goalscorers instincts. He is predominantly a playmaker though, which suits him just fine being that he's a center and not a winger. Watch his shot though, he's got a Joe Sakic-esque release with good accuracy. As for his hockey sense, I'm not too sure why you're knocking him there. He's played well on the PK, scored a nice goal on the PK in their first game which was all him, and he knows where to be on the ice in the offensive zone. I think he'll be a top 10 pick and if he falls to where Montreal's picking, I'd like them to take him (unless Ryan Parent's still on the board at that time.)

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04-17-2005, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien
Where we're picking in the 1st round I wouldn't pick either of them. Granted, I haven't seen Zagrapan enough to be sure on him, but I don't see him as a real gamebreaking talent, and I think we have enough 2nd-line-ish purely offensive guys around on the team and in the system that he's not a player I would be thinking about on draft day.
You definitely should watch Zagrapan more. His upside is huge IMO, he is a very, very skilled player.

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04-17-2005, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markov`
You definitely should watch Zagrapan more. His upside is huge IMO, he is a very, very skilled player.
My goodness , this guy is so skilled.Did you see , yesterday game (vs the Remparts)? He had 3 goals one assist.He made a beautiful pass and he's very calm with the puck.He has an amazing wrist shot , he completed a tic tac toe , REALLY nicely by a shot in the top corner.I've seen him play more then 5 times , the only thing , I don't like is that he's floating a lot.He's an offensive player , that could be excusable.When this guy will learn how to play a two way game , he's gonna be scary.

I'd take Zagrapan over Ryder , anyday and twice the sunday.Zagrapan is much more skilled and he's smart.Ryder is a special player , I've seen several Petes games and he was often the best player on the ice.He's small but he was playing like a big kid.He's a good playmaker and he's also playing with smart.Ryder will go early second round OR late first round but it'd surprise me.Zagrapan will go in the top 10.


Last edited by CH Wizard: 04-17-2005 at 02:48 PM.
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04-17-2005, 02:40 PM
  #10
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montreal will draft the best player avaible

if latendresse or o'mare or bourret

we will not draft a def



draft = bes player avaible

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04-17-2005, 02:45 PM
  #11
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That being said,

Alex Bourret would definitely be the perfect pick for the Habs organization. Assuming there is a 'not-so-weighted lottery' and the we get a top 10 pick, we just need to land him. This guy is gonna be a big star in the NHL and he would be even more popular with Montreal.

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04-17-2005, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gars59


montreal will draft the best player avaible

if latendresse or o'mare or bourret

we will not draft a def



draft = bes player avaible
I've got a question for you. What to do if the best player available is a defenseman?

Just kidding. Keep improving your english.

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04-17-2005, 02:51 PM
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Ok folks, I want to hear no more of this and more positive thinking.. insane amounts of positive thinking, So, with that said.. who will Montreal draft? Sidney *** Crosby! That's who!

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04-17-2005, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Habs13
Ok folks, I want to hear no more of this and more positive thinking.. insane amounts of positive thinking, So, with that said.. who will Montreal draft? Sidney *** Crosby! That's who!
Ya I heard this Crosby guy isn't too bad of a player I should look into him, maybe he has potential

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04-17-2005, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markov`
You definitely should watch Zagrapan more. His upside is huge IMO, he is a very, very skilled player.
Just out of curiosity, how would folks who have seen a lot of Zagrapan rate him compared to Kostitsyn and Perezhogin?

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04-17-2005, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien
Just out of curiosity, how would folks who have seen a lot of Zagrapan rate him compared to Kostitsyn and Perezhogin?
You can't _really_ compare Zagrapan's game to those two's, because they're both wingers and he plays center, but as for rating him, I think he's close to Kostitsyn. If Kostitsyn would be more willing to go in front of the net, I'd rate him higher than Zagrapan, but for now it's very close. Perezhogin is a way safer prospect than Zagrapan, and uses his speed more. That's all I have to say for now

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04-17-2005, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahan
You can't _really_ compare Zagrapan's game to those two's, because they're both wingers and he plays center, but as for rating him, I think he's close to Kostitsyn.
It's true, Zagrapan plays centre. But if you look at his faceoff winning %, he is well below the 50% mark game after game. And this is against junior players who typically have inferior hand eye coordination than he does. I'm afraid of how bad he'd do on draws in the NHL. Couple that with the fact we have -koivu, ribeiro, bonk, begin, chipchura, plekanec, locke, lapierre- in the organization... if drafted by Montreal, I see Zagrapan being moved to LW as it is a weakness in the organization IMO.

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04-17-2005, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahan
You can't _really_ compare Zagrapan's game to those two's, because they're both wingers and he plays center, but as for rating him, I think he's close to Kostitsyn. If Kostitsyn would be more willing to go in front of the net, I'd rate him higher than Zagrapan, but for now it's very close. Perezhogin is a way safer prospect than Zagrapan, and uses his speed more. That's all I have to say for now
Okay. I'll be curious to hear what others say. For myself (bearing in mind that I have no clear opinion of my own on Zagrapan), my impression is that he'd have to be at least as good as Kostitsyn and Perezhogin are as prospects for me to want to add him to our system. Maybe he is. Certainly his rankings would suggest it, according to some of the draft previewers around. It's not that we absolutely can't have another pure offensive guy. If he's really that good, and he's clearly BPA at our pick, fair enough. My impression going in was the he would NOT be rated as highly as Kostitsyn or Perezhogin, and consequently that it would be unlikely he'd be our BPA in the draft. But I'm open to being convinced otherwise. (Well, slightly convinced, that is, inasmuch as newsgroup hearsay can ever convince me. ).

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04-17-2005, 06:44 PM
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Does anybody have a good scouting report on Parent? If he is a future #3-4 d-man, I hope we trade the pick and move up or trade down and pick up a future draft pick

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04-17-2005, 07:06 PM
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I've a little bit of Zagrapan and I really like him. Very talented, good hockey sense, and he seems to have showed up in the playoffs statistically. Altough I haven't seen a playoffs game of him yet. He will probably be gone by the time we pick anyway so...

I also like Latendresse a lot. He's got tons of potential. We're lucky if we can draft this kid. He had an injury at the beginning of the year and missed training camp and the first few games, which I'm sure was a major factor in his poor start. But he picked it up late in the season and in the playoffs and was great. He'd be top 10 for sure if not for the injury IMO.

I've never seen Parent but I like what I heard on this board. If he's a fast, defensively responsible, mean yet clean dman I want him on our team. We need a guy like that badly.

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04-17-2005, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien
Okay. I'll be curious to hear what others say. For myself (bearing in mind that I have no clear opinion of my own on Zagrapan), my impression is that he'd have to be at least as good as Kostitsyn and Perezhogin are as prospects for me to want to add him to our system. Maybe he is. Certainly his rankings would suggest it, according to some of the draft previewers around. It's not that we absolutely can't have another pure offensive guy. If he's really that good, and he's clearly BPA at our pick, fair enough. My impression going in was the he would NOT be rated as highly as Kostitsyn or Perezhogin, and consequently that it would be unlikely he'd be our BPA in the draft. But I'm open to being convinced otherwise. (Well, slightly convinced, that is, inasmuch as newsgroup hearsay can ever convince me. ).

I like Zagrapan a lot as a junior player, but I wouldn't want the Habs to draft him. Too many risks, I don't think his game will translate all that well. He's far from being in Perezhogin's league, and isn't as physical as Kostitsyn(and that says a lot about his game), nor is he as flashy. But he cuts to the net to get those goals, while Kostitsyn doesn't. That's the only thing he has on him, but I think Kostitsyn is better.

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04-17-2005, 09:31 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahan
I like Zagrapan a lot as a junior player, but I wouldn't want the Habs to draft him. Too many risks, I don't think his game will translate all that well. He's far from being in Perezhogin's league, and isn't as physical as Kostitsyn(and that says a lot about his game), nor is he as flashy. But he cuts to the net to get those goals, while Kostitsyn doesn't. That's the only thing he has on him, but I think Kostitsyn is better.
But Zagrapan and Kostitsyn have very few common points in the way they play offensively.

Zagrapan is more of a playmaker, he has great hockey sense and he is better passer. I've noticed that Zagrapan (In the games I've seen, might not always be the case) scores alot of his goals by being well positionned offensively, not by stickhandling through the whole defence or releasing a wicked shot. He is always well placed in the offensive zone and he knows what he needs to do for the team to score. That said, he also has great hands and a good accurate wrist shot, but IMO these aren't his main weapons.

But like I've said since the first few times I've seen him, he has unbelievable potential and he has the determination to achieve big things later in his career. He is indeed a high-risk high-reward player, but I think the reward overweight the risk.

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04-18-2005, 10:38 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rather Gingerly 1
Does anybody have a good scouting report on Parent? If he is a future #3-4 d-man, I hope we trade the pick and move up or trade down and pick up a future draft pick
Check McKeen's Hockey, they did a few scouting notes on him this year. And I'd say he's more than a 3rd or 4th guy, more like a team's top defenceman...

Here's one that's available to everyone, don't need a subscription...
http://mckeenshockey.rivals.com/cont...ghlight=parent

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04-18-2005, 10:45 AM
  #24
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In Kazakstani Zagrapan means eating carpet dog.

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04-18-2005, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by theo6060
Check McKeen's Hockey, they did a few scouting notes on him this year. And I'd say he's more than a 3rd or 4th guy, more like a team's top defenceman...
I want to like Parent, but most times I see him I end up being underwhelmed. (Case in point the current U-18's). There's no question I would like to have him on my team and in my system... but... at the cost of a pick in the top-20 of the draft? Hmmm. Not based on my own viewings, anyway. (Although when I hear what others say, I try to factor that in). He is positionally and technically sound, but I'm not as convinced about his physicality as others seem to be. He doesn't seem to have anything like a mean streak at all, to me. He will take his man just fine, but I don't see him doing it with any particular aggression. Now, some may see this as a positive: he channels his energy well, doesn't over-commit, doesn't run around looking for hits and taking himself out of position, yada, yada... maybe true. But for a guy that is essentially non-existent offensively, I kind of want to see something more than "quietly efficient and sound in his own zone" before I spend the big 1st rounder.

Of course, character is the other big wildcard here... we lose out on never knowing much about these kids' personalities, but I could be sold a lot more on Parent if his character really is truly in the elite of the elite. (There are plenty of leaders, but you know, there are leaders and then there are the elite of the elite, Gainey etc types, who I would go out of my way to pick if that could be identified). We hear that Parent is a great leader. If he is just a run-of-the-mill-ho-hum-another-kid-with-sold-character, well, that's nice. If he's something more, my interest would perk up again. Tough draft for me so far this year. Last year seemed to be a lot easier to pick favourites.

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