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Jason Pominville Part II

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Old
01-28-2014, 11:02 AM
  #826
melinko
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Originally Posted by Dr Jan Itor View Post
I've jumped on and off the "sign Vanek" bandwagon more times than I can count, but at this moment, I'm back on, for a couple reasons: 1) we are a bottom 5 scoring team, and 2) there isn't a defenseman out there in FA that will be a drastic improvement in our top 4 (minus probably Girardi, but we would be one of many going after him).

A couple more things:

1. I don't think he is going to go the highest bidder. Due to his RFA offersheet deal, has made ~ $20 million more dollars than a lot of his contemporaries in the 2003 draft (Parise, Suter, Getzlaf, Perry). He's already made $50m in the league. I think $40m is the "magic number" in whatever combination of $ and years.

2. We could give him Heatley's contract without doing anything to damage our position of signing our young players (Brodin, Nino, Coyle, Granlund, Zucker, Kuemper). Repeat: it would not affect our ability to re-sign any of them.

3. I'd actually give him $7.5 per for 6 years. Why? Because it really only affects us for four years. After the 4th year, Koivu's cap hit either is lessened or comes off completely; after the 5th year, Pominville's does the same. This frees up the money necessary for the younger guys that are worth the money at that time.

4. The cap will most likely go up every year, lessening the impact every year.

5. We could sign him, re-sign our current RFA's, make a couple of buyout/trades to free up $3m-$4m, and still have $4m-$5m to upgrade our D (Niskanen, Klesla, Greene) and be under the cap by $8m-$10m.
I was thinking the same, I may just be naive though.

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01-28-2014, 11:19 AM
  #827
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Originally Posted by MuckOG View Post
Yeah, I get that. Typical fan over-reaction.....His last game was a bad one, therefore he has bad games ALL the time.
And even last one, didn't the announcers say there was tape or soemthing on the ice? Suter tripped over it as well and they showed him removing something from the ice.

Can't really help that.

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Old
01-28-2014, 12:42 PM
  #828
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Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
I do not understand any of the "We Must Bring in Minnesota Player X" talk or "I can't believe Ex-Gopher doesn't want to come home."

Rather, when it comes Vanek, or Parise, or Suter, I see a very simple strategy from the Wild. Target guys starting to settle down with wives from the Twin Cities. Laugh all you want, but I don't think most people realize how amazingly persuasive that is.
Well by that logic they should be going after Okposo since he just had a kid this year And while the logic works, it is only because they were raised here and probably still have their parents here to help take care of the kids when they have a work schedule that involved how many thousands of miles of trips across the United States? Some don't and fall in love with the area they are currently in. Others want to win and they do not see this as a place with a stable plan to be competitive to win on a consistent basis. Honestly Paul Martin really comes to mind with that one. I can't remember correctly but I could have sworn they were throwing some big money his way and he took less to go to Pitt.

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Originally Posted by Dr Jan Itor View Post
This isn't correct. None of them are going to need "cap busting" contracts until at least Koivu's and Pominville's (and possibly Vanek's) are off the books. By that time, the cap could be $90m.
You and I both know the odds of $90M as cap is slim to none when there are too many teams even now who have issues with a cap floor. And some could be cap busting. We have one more year with Brodin, Coyle, and Granlund. They have stellar years they could sign them to a couple million a piece. That could between 7-9M right there.

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01-28-2014, 12:50 PM
  #829
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You and I both know the odds of $90M as cap is slim to none when there are too many teams even now who have issues with a cap floor. And some could be cap busting. We have one more year with Brodin, Coyle, and Granlund. They have stellar years they could sign them to a couple million a piece. That could between 7-9M right there.
$90m might be an overestimate, but we're at $70m now, so in 4-5 years? Maybe $80m - $85m would be more conservative.

Brodin I will concede, although I don't think his 2nd contract will be too high, but one stellar year for Granlund & Coyle should not mean a multi-million dollar increase, unless our GM is weaker willed than we think.

That's also why I left a $8m-$10m cushion for the 2014-2015 season, even after signing Vanek & re-signing our key RFAs.

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01-28-2014, 12:54 PM
  #830
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Well by that logic they should be going after Okposo since he just had a kid this year And while the logic works, it is only because they were raised here and probably still have their parents here to help take care of the kids when they have a work schedule that involved how many thousands of miles of trips across the United States? Some don't and fall in love with the area they are currently in. Others want to win and they do not see this as a place with a stable plan to be competitive to win on a consistent basis. Honestly Paul Martin really comes to mind with that one. I can't remember correctly but I could have sworn they were throwing some big money his way and he took less to go to Pitt.

You and I both know the odds of $90M as cap is slim to none when there are too many teams even now who have issues with a cap floor. And some could be cap busting. We have one more year with Brodin, Coyle, and Granlund. They have stellar years they could sign them to a couple million a piece. That could between 7-9M right there.
Paul Martin didn't want to come here because of the pressure it would have heaped on him being the first big name Minnesotan free agent to come home. Some players want it, some don't. Paul didn't, Parise did.

There are going to be teams that have issues with the cap floor, which is why making it a fixed amount below the Salary cap is a terrible idea.

Unfortunately, the cap is a fixed formula based on revenue. The owners have zero ability to say thats to high, we are not going to set it at that. A third of the teams bring in enough revenue that is screws over a third by escalating the cap 5-7% every year. It will be to 90 + by the next lockout, and it will be the cause of the next lockout.

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Old
10-14-2014, 10:05 AM
  #831
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Gave up too much. Future NHL starter. Solid 3rd line player. First and Second for a year and change rental. Better get him signed or win a cup or that was a whole lot of nothing.
I'm willing to eat crow on this. Hackett looks like a crappy throw in right now. Larsson is absolutely dominating the AHL, but has had trouble adjusting to the NHL game. 1st of Zadorov or other picks in that range hurts. That could be our last high 'pick' for a while. However, another solid 25-30 season and we've passed the investment into Pominville. I don't mind being wrong when it means we get wins and the puck in the net.

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10-14-2014, 10:10 AM
  #832
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Originally Posted by Victorious Secret View Post
I'm willing to eat crow on this. Hackett looks like a crappy throw in right now. Larsson is absolutely dominating the AHL, but has had trouble adjusting to the NHL game. 1st of Zadorov or other picks in that range hurts. That could be our last high 'pick' for a while. However, another solid 25-30 season and we've passed the investment into Pominville. I don't mind being wrong when it means we get wins and the puck in the net.
we all have those moments where we eat our words. Mine has been with Darcy so far.

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10-14-2014, 10:11 AM
  #833
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we all have those moments where we eat our words. Mine has been with Darcy so far.
It helps knowing that the 2013 draft has been pretty meh so far. Darcy was tough since he was in the Hackett shadow.

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10-14-2014, 10:27 AM
  #834
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I'm willing to eat crow on this. Hackett looks like a crappy throw in right now. Larsson is absolutely dominating the AHL, but has had trouble adjusting to the NHL game. 1st of Zadorov or other picks in that range hurts. That could be our last high 'pick' for a while. However, another solid 25-30 season and we've passed the investment into Pominville. I don't mind being wrong when it means we get wins and the puck in the net.
i like pommer, i just think we should not have given up a 2nd in that deal. besides that im happy even if pommer was a no show in last years playoffs.

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10-14-2014, 12:46 PM
  #835
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I'm glad we made the pommer trade. Picks are never a for sure. Even in the 2nd rd.

One thing that is for sure is we got ourselves a 30 goal scorer

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10-14-2014, 12:55 PM
  #836
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well you never know until you try so the pommer 2nd , the 2 moulson 2nds , not trading a few past players we've missed out on several "chances" maybe missed the next pat sharp!

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10-14-2014, 03:49 PM
  #837
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Originally Posted by Victorious Secret View Post
I'm willing to eat crow on this. Hackett looks like a crappy throw in right now. Larsson is absolutely dominating the AHL, but has had trouble adjusting to the NHL game. 1st of Zadorov or other picks in that range hurts. That could be our last high 'pick' for a while. However, another solid 25-30 season and we've passed the investment into Pominville. I don't mind being wrong when it means we get wins and the puck in the net.
I still think that we paid a bit of a premium. Poms is going to be good but we could have used Zadorov on this team. Who knows how good Hackett would have been on this team without the off-the-ice drama of Kuemper? And Larsson is a push with Haula but he could have been a good third/fourth line wing. Larsson at most is the piece I don't care the most about in this trade.

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10-14-2014, 04:06 PM
  #838
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I still think that we paid a bit of a premium. Poms is going to be good but we could have used Zadorov on this team. Who knows how good Hackett would have been on this team without the off-the-ice drama of Kuemper? And Larsson is a push with Haula but he could have been a good third/fourth line wing. Larsson at most is the piece I don't care the most about in this trade.
Which is funny because that was probably the one piece most of us were livid about because we had no center depth.

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10-14-2014, 04:47 PM
  #839
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I still think that we paid a bit of a premium. Poms is going to be good but we could have used Zadorov on this team. Who knows how good Hackett would have been on this team without the off-the-ice drama of Kuemper? And Larsson is a push with Haula but he could have been a good third/fourth line wing. Larsson at most is the piece I don't care the most about in this trade.
No guarantee we would've selected Zadorov.

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10-14-2014, 04:57 PM
  #840
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I still think that we paid a bit of a premium. Poms is going to be good but we could have used Zadorov on this team. Who knows how good Hackett would have been on this team without the off-the-ice drama of Kuemper? And Larsson is a push with Haula but he could have been a good third/fourth line wing. Larsson at most is the piece I don't care the most about in this trade.
While I agree we paid a high price at the time (hindsight not included), I think we also have to remember prospects always have more work to do. Development is not always linear but also not always on an incline; many times they just can't handle the pro-game which is a big jump.

So I agree we did pay a bit of a premium, but think this deal was trading away futures for a now. This deal was more of a potential/now type of trade, and even if Hackett and Larsson found their way into the NHL, I would still be happy because the deal did what it was meant to do; push us into the playoffs, have us as playoff contenders while still leaving many core pieces intact.

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10-14-2014, 07:39 PM
  #841
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you have to factor in the timetable if you want to talk about value. might not have been worth it to you to give up that stuff but it was worth it to the franchise to make the playoffs the last couple seasons.

edit: isn't this after the year Haula started showing more scoring with the U? While I'm sure they were confident Larsson was still going to be a good player, they must have seen something in Haula that made them confident that they could cover that future loss and still make the obvious gain in the short term with Pommer. Not that they at the time (or even now?) believe Haula was going to be as good as Larsson eventually--just that he showed enough to let them know their future at C was solid enough.

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10-14-2014, 10:30 PM
  #842
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Originally Posted by BigT2002 View Post
Which is funny because that was probably the one piece most of us were livid about because we had no center depth.
Yeah. I still think Larsson is going to be a solid tweener in this league, I am still sad we had to give him up.

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No guarantee we would've selected Zadorov.
No guarantees but we could have still gotten a good player around that pick.

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Originally Posted by Circulartheory View Post
While I agree we paid a high price at the time (hindsight not included), I think we also have to remember prospects always have more work to do. Development is not always linear but also not always on an incline; many times they just can't handle the pro-game which is a big jump.
True but Fletcher paid for a buying market and in a terrible year to make a splash. Poms didn't do anything that season and there was no guarantee he would have signed back. If he walked, the deal would have been terrible.

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So I agree we did pay a bit of a premium, but think this deal was trading away futures for a now. This deal was more of a potential/now type of trade, and even if Hackett and Larsson found their way into the NHL, I would still be happy because the deal did what it was meant to do; push us into the playoffs, have us as playoff contenders while still leaving many core pieces intact.
Poms was a risk because we didn't know if he was going to sign back and how much. We also don't know for how long we will have Poms that good. If Minnesota stalls and never pushes past the 2nd round, I still think this was a bad deal.

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10-14-2014, 10:32 PM
  #843
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Hated this deal at the time, but Pominville has proven me wrong.

I think he's easily become one of the Wild's top-3 players.

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10-14-2014, 11:55 PM
  #844
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I ate crow on the Nino deal, it happens. Was suspect at giving up Hackett instead of Kuemper but happy that's been settled in the best way possible so far.

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10-15-2014, 02:26 AM
  #845
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Guys. We have 4 center slots, 8 winger slots and 6 defender slots. Those are the guys who dress for the games. We have quite good pipeline of promising prospects still, but we now have reaaally good top-9 offensive lines. Clinging to prospects as they all are next Webers and Kanes is ridiculous. You have to give to get and we got the best player in this deal, ****ing easily. 30+30.

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10-15-2014, 03:41 AM
  #846
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Guys. We have 4 center slots, 8 winger slots and 6 defender slots. Those are the guys who dress for the games. We have quite good pipeline of promising prospects still, but we now have reaaally good top-9 offensive lines. Clinging to prospects as they all are next Webers and Kanes is ridiculous. You have to give to get and we got the best player in this deal, ****ing easily. 30+30.
I'm on board with this. Larsson and Hackett still wouldn't be on the NHL squad full time, and there's no guarantee who we would have taken with the picks or how they would have turned out. Pominville definitely helps us out right now.

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10-15-2014, 09:49 AM
  #847
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Thought the trade looked lopsided at the time, but it's looking good so far.

The big thing is the guys we gave up with, Larsson and Hackett, are lagging behind the guys we kept, Haula and Kuemper. I'm not sure if this is luck or savvy (or just small sample size), but I would have put money on Larsson/Hackett being strong NHL'ers and Haula/Kuemper being depth guys. Right now the roles are flipped.

The other kicker is Pommer being a 30+ goal guy and re-signing. He seems to fit really well. He's not the guy making big plays, but he finishes better than anyone we've had since Rolston.

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10-15-2014, 10:02 AM
  #848
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Jarick's last point is generally how I feel.

Without Pominville, this team still really wouldn't have a finisher (of course Vanek is here now, but still). I also don't think it's much of a coincidence that ever since that trade the Wild have been trending up and they've become more relative on a larger scale.

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10-15-2014, 10:32 AM
  #849
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thats a good way to word it, pommer fits well on this team. hes productive , good character guy & has leadership skills. i definately wanted him just at a slightly better trade price. now that he re-signed it was a great move. hes the kind of crafty vet the young teams like edm , fla are missing. fantastic hockey IQ.

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10-15-2014, 12:06 PM
  #850
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Hated this deal at the time, but Pominville has proven me wrong.

I think he's easily become one of the Wild's top-3 players.
He still turns the puck over more then I would like to see. He turns it over and gives it up often and without much of a battle. Now if he could go ahead and clean that up that would be great.

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