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Old
07-15-2013, 03:24 PM
  #476
matt trick
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Remember when the Daniels bros were guaranteed top 6 forwards. He may not have said guaranteed, but it was pretty definite.

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07-15-2013, 05:45 PM
  #477
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Originally Posted by 210 View Post
Doherty needs to learn that hockey is a contact sport. Until he does he isn't going anywhere...
Is he scared of being hit? Or he does not hit?

Being scared to be hit is bad.
But throwing hits is the most over rated aspect of a defensmens game ever. Vlasic is not physical either but i see people saying he is a top defensemen in the league. And there is this guy named lidstrom that just retired that never hit either but if i remember correctly he turned out pretty damn good.

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07-15-2013, 05:49 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
Is he scared of being hit? Or he does not hit?

Being scared to be hit is bad.
But throwing hits is the most over rated aspect of a defensmens game ever. Vlasic is not physical either but i see people saying he is a top defensemen in the league. And there is this guy named lidstrom that just retired that never hit either but if i remember correctly he turned out pretty damn good.
There's a difference between physicality and throwing hits.

Vlasic isn't a cream-puff, he can hold is own, even though I've never seen him throw a hit in his career.

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07-15-2013, 05:52 PM
  #479
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That's why I never get excited about this tall lanky defensemen.

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07-15-2013, 05:56 PM
  #480
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
There's a difference between physicality and throwing hits.

Vlasic isn't a cream-puff, he can hold is own, even though I've never seen him throw a hit in his career.
Yes i know, hence why i asked if he is scared to take a hit or doesnt give out hits.

Granted it is kind of a pointless question because even the biggest wuss in the nhl is still physical. They just do not hit, hence why people call them soft.

Nobody would make it out of the chl if he was not physicall nor would he ever get drafted by an nhl club.

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07-15-2013, 05:56 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
Is he scared of being hit? Or he does not hit?

Being scared to be hit is bad.
But throwing hits is the most over rated aspect of a defensmens game ever. Vlasic is not physical either but i see people saying he is a top defensemen in the league. And there is this guy named lidstrom that just retired that never hit either but if i remember correctly he turned out pretty damn good.
He isn't scared of being hit - he doesn't shy away from physicality at all.

What (I assume) 210 is referring to is that he just doesn't use his body effectively when playing and a kid his size absolutely has to be able to use it to his advantage...he doesn't really use his size / body to hit (initiate contact), rub players out along the boards, in front of the net, etc.

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07-15-2013, 06:15 PM
  #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
He isn't scared of being hit - he doesn't shy away from physicality at all.

What (I assume) 210 is referring to is that he just doesn't use his body effectively when playing and a kid his size absolutely has to be able to use it to his advantage...he doesn't really use his size / body to hit (initiate contact), rub players out along the boards, in front of the net, etc.
I see. Like, Mike Rathje. Not really physical, but a guy who used his size and reach very effectively.

How has he improved his skating? I remember thinking he had good speed and acceleration but bad lateral movement...a lot of times he would not turn to face the play very smoothly.

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07-15-2013, 06:19 PM
  #483
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Originally Posted by OrrNumber4 View Post
I see. Like, Mike Rathje. Not really physical, but a guy who used his size and reach very effectively.
Well no, he's not Mike Rathje because he doesn't do any of those things.

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07-15-2013, 06:25 PM
  #484
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Originally Posted by OrrNumber4 View Post
I see. Like, Mike Rathje. Not really physical, but a guy who used his size and reach very effectively.

How has he improved his skating? I remember thinking he had good speed and acceleration but bad lateral movement...a lot of times he would not turn to face the play very smoothly.
That's actually a pretty good reference on how Doherty needs to play, he's not there.

His lateral movement seems OK to me most of the time but his turns aren't great, however, if he can learn how to use his size (and yes, his reach) he doesn't need to be great in those areas, just good.

Doherty had seemed to be 'turning a corner' at the beginning of last season, then he had his Achilles sliced and missed quite a bit of time. It took him until the last few weeks of the season to look like he was getting back on track.

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07-15-2013, 07:24 PM
  #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
He isn't scared of being hit - he doesn't shy away from physicality at all.

What (I assume) 210 is referring to is that he just doesn't use his body effectively when playing and a kid his size absolutely has to be able to use it to his advantage...he doesn't really use his size / body to hit (initiate contact), rub players out along the boards, in front of the net, etc.
You assume correctly.

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07-15-2013, 07:30 PM
  #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
Is he scared of being hit? Or he does not hit?

Being scared to be hit is bad.
But throwing hits is the most over rated aspect of a defensmens game ever. Vlasic is not physical either but i see people saying he is a top defensemen in the league. And there is this guy named lidstrom that just retired that never hit either but if i remember correctly he turned out pretty damn good.
You don't need to knock guys into the 5th row to be a good defenseman, but you do need to be able to put your arse in the way along the boards to stop someone from squeezing by. Doherty doesn't do that. Until he does, he's not going anywhere near the NHL.

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07-15-2013, 08:46 PM
  #487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 210 View Post
You don't need to knock guys into the 5th row to be a good defenseman, but you do need to be able to put your arse in the way along the boards to stop someone from squeezing by. Doherty doesn't do that. Until he does, he's not going anywhere near the NHL.
i'm sure that is more of a comfort thing then a not knowing how, or not wanting to. that is one of the 1st things you are taught when learning to play hockey especially at the defense side of the game.

he might have gotten away from it when he was in the ohl, because he was a bit better then most of the players he was playing against, so playing a less physical way was easier on the body and he could get away with it.

by the way did someone say that doherty is tall and lanky ? if so i don't see how lol unless he had a major fattening spurt since his draft year, and a major shortning spurt. he is 6'0, 230 lbs.

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07-15-2013, 08:51 PM
  #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
i'm sure that is more of a comfort thing then a not knowing how, or not wanting to. that is one of the 1st things you are taught when learning to play hockey especially at the defense side of the game.

he might have gotten away from it when he was in the ohl, because he was a bit better then most of the players he was playing against, so playing a less physical way was easier on the body and he could get away with it.

by the way did someone say that doherty is tall and lanky ? if so i don't see how lol unless he had a major fattening spurt since his draft year, and a major shortning spurt. he is 6'0, 230 lbs.
You should probably look it up again. He's like 6'7". We've got like a forest of giants coming along on the back end.

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07-15-2013, 08:57 PM
  #489
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i wish i could watch these guys more often.

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Old
07-15-2013, 08:58 PM
  #490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hohosaregood View Post
You should probably look it up again. He's like 6'7". We've got like a forest of giants coming along on the back end.
hockey db says he is 6.08, my mistake then lol. then he must of been really lanky at his draft. not to many teens are 230 lbs while working out in the ohl lol.

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Old
07-15-2013, 09:07 PM
  #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
i'm sure that is more of a comfort thing then a not knowing how, or not wanting to. that is one of the 1st things you are taught when learning to play hockey especially at the defense side of the game.

he might have gotten away from it when he was in the ohl, because he was a bit better then most of the players he was playing against, so playing a less physical way was easier on the body and he could get away with it.

by the way did someone say that doherty is tall and lanky ? if so i don't see how lol unless he had a major fattening spurt since his draft year, and a major shortning spurt. he is 6'0, 230 lbs.
And the OHL is incredibly harsh when it comes to hits to the head. He had to be careful when hitting and using his body since he was so much taller than the other kids. No excuse as to why he doesn't do it now though.

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Old
07-15-2013, 09:26 PM
  #492
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Originally Posted by Gene Parmesan View Post
And the OHL is incredibly harsh when it comes to hits to the head. He had to be careful when hitting and using his body since he was so much taller than the other kids. No excuse as to why he doesn't do it now though.
no not really, but at the same time yes it is. he had 4 years of ohl years to pick up his bad habits, he is not going to just drop them at a whim and play perfect pro style hockey. he is going to go through a few growing pains trying to get the pro habits to fit his size and skill level.

every one picks up bad habits at anything they do, if someone told me to go redo my drivers test right now i would fail it for sure since i have picked up so many bad habits in the 15 years i have been driving, heck even in the 5 years between my 1st driving test and my final one i had picked up most of my bad habits but luckily i was able to work through them to just pass my test.

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07-15-2013, 09:29 PM
  #493
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
no not really, but at the same time yes it is. he had 4 years of ohl years to pick up his bad habits, he is not going to just drop them at a whim and play perfect pro style hockey. he is going to go through a few growing pains trying to get the pro habits to fit his size and skill level.

every one picks up bad habits at anything they do, if someone told me to go redo my drivers test right now i would fail it for sure since i have picked up so many bad habits in the 15 years i have been driving, heck even in the 5 years between my 1st driving test and my final one i had picked up most of my bad habits but luckily i was able to work through them to just pass my test.
I agree. I don't expect him to be perfect but I think most were expecting him to be further along than he is and its disheartening to hear that 6'8 240 lb guy isn't using his size.

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07-15-2013, 09:39 PM
  #494
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Originally Posted by Gene Parmesan View Post
I agree. I don't expect him to be perfect but I think most were expecting him to be further along than he is and its disheartening to hear that 6'8 240 lb guy isn't using his size.
i didn't follow the islanders or the senators or any other team that much back in the mid to late 90's, but i am sure fans of the islanders and sens were having these same conversations about chara.

chara's break out year was in 2001-02 with 10 goals, 13 assists and 23 points. this was his 5th year in the nhl.

big hulking defensemen need more time in my opinion, they are so used to being so much bigger, so much stronger, so much better then the other players around them, that it just takes them longer to adjust.

doherty is only 22 years old, and is only in his 2nd full season pro. people are just so quick to say bust now a days it just drives me crazy. 90% of the hall of fame players would of been called busts back in the day if we had today's standards.

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07-15-2013, 09:44 PM
  #495
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i didn't follow the islanders or the senators or any other team that much back in the mid to late 90's, but i am sure fans of the islanders and sens were having these same conversations about chara.

chara's break out year was in 2001-02 with 10 goals, 13 assists and 23 points. this was his 5th year in the nhl.

big hulking defensemen need more time in my opinion, they are so used to being so much bigger, so much stronger, so much better then the other players around them, that it just takes them longer to adjust.

doherty is only 22 years old, and is only in his 2nd full season pro. people are just so quick to say bust now a days it just drives me crazy. 90% of the hall of fame players would of been called busts back in the day if we had today's standards.
This is why I'm willing to wait and see what Doherty has to bring in 2 years. Beyond that, I think it'll probably be time to let go.

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07-15-2013, 09:47 PM
  #496
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This is why I'm willing to wait and see what Doherty has to bring in 2 years. Beyond that, I think it'll probably be time to let go.
exactly give him 4-5 years in the pros, if he hasn't figured it out consisently then yeah he most likely will never actually get it.

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07-15-2013, 09:47 PM
  #497
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i didn't follow the islanders or the senators or any other team that much back in the mid to late 90's, but i am sure fans of the islanders and sens were having these same conversations about chara.

chara's break out year was in 2001-02 with 10 goals, 13 assists and 23 points. this was his 5th year in the nhl.

big hulking defensemen need more time in my opinion, they are so used to being so much bigger, so much stronger, so much better then the other players around them, that it just takes them longer to adjust.

doherty is only 22 years old, and is only in his 2nd full season pro. people are just so quick to say bust now a days it just drives me crazy. 90% of the hall of fame players would of been called busts back in the day if we had today's standards.
i dont think 210 has ever said doherty is a bust. just that his play hasnt been anywhere near nhl level yet. could be wrong though.

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07-15-2013, 09:51 PM
  #498
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i dont think 210 has ever said doherty is a bust. just that his play hasnt been anywhere near nhl level yet. could be wrong though.
i don't think 210 did either, but i am pretty sure someone in this thread basically said doherty is already in his make it or break it year (which means they think he is done as a prospect if he doesn't put it all together this year).

i could also be confusing threads and player, since the 3 main threads i've been looking through these past few days have been talking about line ups and potential for youngins to break in through the line up.

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07-15-2013, 09:58 PM
  #499
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Doherty isn't a bust same as Petrecki isn't either. I'm willing to give them a little more time.

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07-15-2013, 09:58 PM
  #500
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i don't think 210 did either, but i am pretty sure someone in this thread basically said doherty is already in his make it or break it year (which means they think he is done as a prospect if he doesn't put it all together this year).

i could also be confusing threads and player, since the 3 main threads i've been looking through these past few days have been talking about line ups and potential for youngins to break in through the line up.
ahh yea, that was druncan. first and last time ive seen him in this thread

defenseman of any ilk are never make or break at 22 regardless

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