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ATD 2013 Lineup Assassination Thread - Bob Cole Division

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Old
03-25-2013, 02:26 PM
  #1
Hobnobs
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ATD 2013 Lineup Assassination Thread - Bob Cole Division

Bob Cole Division

2. VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears
10. Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos
18. vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans
26. markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks

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03-25-2013, 02:27 PM
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Seattle Eskimos



Coach: Joel Quenneville
Assistant coach: Tommy Sandlin


Markus Näslund - Peter Forsberg (A) - Odie Cleghorn
Syd Howe - Darryl Sittler (C) - Dino Ciccarelli
Mats Näslund - Edgar Laprade - Bob Nystrom
Jan Erixon - Derek Sanderson - Alf Skinner
Bob Probert, Danny Briere

Denis Potvin (A) - Butch Bouchard
Brad McCrimmon - Flash Hollett
Jamie Macoun - Glen Wesley
Mark Tinordi

Martin Brodeur
Mike Richter

PP1: Markus Näslund - Peter Forsberg - Dino Ciccarelli, Denis Potvin - Flash Hollett

PP2: Mats Näslund - Darryl Sittler - Odie Cleghorn, Syd Howe - Glen Wesley

PK1: Derek Sanderson - Jan Erixon, Denis Potvin- Butch Bouchard

PK2: Edgar Laprade - Alf Skinner, Brad McCrimmon - Jamie Macoun

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03-25-2013, 02:36 PM
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Mystery Alaskans



Anatoli Tarasov
Arkady Chernyshev

Aurele Joliat - Howie Morenz - Jack Walker
George Hay - Pierre Turgeon - Jarome Iginla "C"
Pavol Demitra - Russell Bowie - Vic Stasiuk
Ray Getliffe - Red Sullivan "A" - Billy Boucher

Hod Stuart - Earl Seibert "A"
Sergei Gonchar - Bob Goldham
Rod Seiling - Yuri Liapkin

Bill Durnan
Alec Connell


Spares: Saku Koivu, Ken Randall, Alexander Gusev


Power Play #1
Aurele Joliat - Howie Morenz - Jarome Iginla
Sergei Gonchar - Yuri Liapkin

Power Play #2
Russell Bowie - Pierre Turgeon - Vic Stasiuk
Hod Stuart - Earl Seibert

Penalty Kill #1
Jack Walker - Red Sullivan
Hod Stuart - Earl Seibert

Penalty Kill #2
Howie Morenz - Aurele Joliat
Rod Seiling - Bob Goldham

Penalty Kill #3
Ray Getliffe - George Hay

Estimated Minutes:
ForwardsESPPPKtotal
Howie Morenz144220
Aurele Joliat144220
Jack Walker120315
Pierre Turgeon123015
George Hay120214
Jarome Iginla144018
Russell Bowie123015
Pavol Demitra121013
Vic Stasiuk122014
Red Sullivan80311
Ray Getliffe80210
Billy Boucher8008
Total1382114173

DefensemenESPPPKTotal
Earl Seibert192425
Hod Stuart192324
Sergei Gonchar155020
Bob Goldham150419
Yuri Liapkin125017
Rod Seiling120315
Total921514120


As stated earlier, we will be using the Aurele Joliat - Howie Morenz - Jack Walker line in most head-to-head match-up situations. In some situations, Jarome Iginla will replace Jack Walker on the 1st line, so that's why Iginla plays 2 minutes more than his line mates and Walker plays 2 fewer.


Last edited by Dreakmur: 03-26-2013 at 12:54 PM.
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Old
03-25-2013, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
As stated earlier, we will be using the Aurele Joliat - Howie Morenz - Jack Walker line in most head-to-head match-up situations. In some situations, Jarome Iginla will replace Jack Walker on the 1st line, so that's why Iginla plays 2 minutes more than his line mates and Walker plays 2 fewer.
Did Tarasov believe in line matching? I honestly don't know, but I know the later Soviets didn't. They rolled 4 five-man units (which international rules allowed I think) like good Communists.

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03-26-2013, 09:23 AM
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Cincinnati Fireworks




GM: Markrander87
Coach: Mike Kennan
Captain: Ted Kennedy
Alternate Captains: Mike Grant, Eddie Gerard, Charlie Conacher

Ted Lindsay - Ted Kennedy (C) - Bobby Rousseau
Harry Watson - Denis Savard - Charlie Conacher (A)
Patrick Marleau - Henrik Sedin - Wilf Paiement
Sami Pahlsson - Steve Kasper - Cully Wilson (defensive zone draw line when 1st line needs rest)


Eddie Gerard (A) - Ken Reardon
Gennady Tsygankov - Mike Grant (A)
Bill Hajt - Lennart Svedberg

George Hainsworth
Rogie Vachon


Spares: LW/C Lynn Patrick, D Jack "Tex" Evans, LW Dennis Hextall, F Patrick Sharp

PP 1:

Lindsay – Savard – Conacher
Svedberg – Rousseau

PP 2:

Sedin - Kennedy - Marleau
Gerard - Grant

PK 1:

Kasper - Rousseau
Hajt - Gerard

PK 2:

Kennedy - Pahlsson
Reardon- Tysgankov


Last edited by markrander87: 03-27-2013 at 09:36 AM.
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03-26-2013, 12:12 PM
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Did Tarasov believe in line matching? I honestly don't know, but I know the later Soviets didn't. They rolled 4 five-man units (which international rules allowed I think) like good Communists.
I know Tarasov liked to attack rather than defend, which is why he never used a defensive checking line.

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03-26-2013, 04:53 PM
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I know Tarasov liked to attack rather than defend, which is why he never used a defensive checking line.
Did he separate the defensemen and forwards like in the modern NHL or did he like to run 5-man units like Tikhonov did later? All the good bios of Tarasov talk about his training methods and practices, very little about how he ran the team in-game. I think it's important to know before I assassinate your team.

Since this is my division's "rival division," I plan on hitting every team in it like I will in my own division.

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03-26-2013, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Did he separate the defensemen and forwards like in the modern NHL or did he like to run 5-man units like Tikhonov did later? All the good bios of Tarasov talk about his training methods and practices, very little about how he ran the team in-game. I think it's important to know before I assassinate your team.

Since this is my division's "rival division," I plan on hitting every team in it like I will in my own division.
5 man units as far as I know...

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03-26-2013, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Did he separate the defensemen and forwards like in the modern NHL or did he like to run 5-man units like Tikhonov did later?

All the good bios of Tarasov talk about his training methods and practices, very little about how he ran the team in-game. I think it's important to know before I assassinate your team.
As I said before, Tarasov developed and tried so many different strategies and systems that I think it's impossible to pin him down to one single style of coaching.

A few themes that I have found:
- he disliked lazy player
- he dislikes selfish player
- he prefered to attack rather than defend

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03-26-2013, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Did he separate the defensemen and forwards like in the modern NHL or did he like to run 5-man units like Tikhonov did later? All the good bios of Tarasov talk about his training methods and practices, very little about how he ran the team in-game. I think it's important to know before I assassinate your team.

Since this is my division's "rival division," I plan on hitting every team in it like I will in my own division.
IMO those teams are just as important as teams in your division, because you will be facing one of them in the first round of the playoffs. With Gretzky, Orr, Jagr in my "rival division" I pretty much felt no choice but to build a defensive minded team.

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03-26-2013, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
As I said before, Tarasov developed and tried so many different strategies and systems that I think it's impossible to pin him down to one single style of coaching.

A few themes that I have found:
- he disliked lazy player
- he dislikes selfish player

- he prefered to attack rather than defend
So basically, he'll send the KGB after Pierre Turgeon's family.

Tarasov used to have a rep in the ATD as a kind of Communist dictator like Tikhonov. Under Tarasov, I even wrote in my notes going into my first ATD (after reading the entire ATD10 and ATD11 threads without participating), "can only coach Commies." That was probably unfair, but he was basically still a strict systems coach and disciplinarian, right?

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03-26-2013, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
So basically, he'll send the KGB after Pierre Turgeon's family.

Tarasov used to have a rep in the ATD as a kind of Communist dictator like Tikhonov. Under Tarasov, I even wrote in my notes going into my first ATD (after reading the entire ATD10 and ATD11 threads without participating), "can only coach Commies." That was probably unfair, but he was basically still a strict systems coach and disciplinarian, right?
I remember when Dreak took Tarasov my grandpa said that he basically took Emile Francis.

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03-26-2013, 05:45 PM
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As I said before, Tarasov developed and tried so many different strategies and systems that I think it's impossible to pin him down to one single style of coaching.
I've seen this statement made a few times now, and I have serious doubts as to its truth. There is a lot of ink about how innovative Tarasov was, how he was always trying new training techniques and such, but this seems to be much more in the realm of "builder" qualities than coaching, as far as I can tell. What do we actually know about Tarasov's teams - the systems that they used on the ice? That's the important question. I don't really give a crap if he liked to "innovate" by having his guys skate around on one leg for a whole practice, or somesuch.

Unfortunately, Tarasov's coaching career ended just as his teams were becoming famous in the western world, so we can only judge his systems indirectly. The Soviet national team circa 1972 and all through the Bobrov/Kulagin era was playing a distinctive style which was quite different from that which prevailed in north american or even european hockey at the time, and I think it is safe to assume that Tarasov's fingerprints are all over the system that those teams were running. And those teams did have a discernable system, with strengths and weaknesses, which can be seen by watching them play. I don't have time to get into all the specifics at this point - I will come back around to this thread before the week is through - but I don't like the characterization of Tarasov as an "any system" sort of coach. What evidence do we have that Tarasov actually used varied tactical systems with success at the highest level, as men like Blake and Patrick did?

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03-26-2013, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
So basically, he'll send the KGB after Pierre Turgeon's family.
Turgeon is definately soft, but is he actually selfish or lazy?

Quote:
Tarasov used to have a rep in the ATD as a kind of Communist dictator like Tikhonov. Under Tarasov, I even wrote in my notes going into my first ATD (after reading the entire ATD10 and ATD11 threads without participating), "can only coach Commies." That was probably unfair, but he was basically still a strict systems coach and disciplinarian, right?
Tarasov was definately strict in his training.

In terms of systems, he was most strict about playing as a team rather than individuals.

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03-26-2013, 06:03 PM
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I've seen this statement made a few times now, and I have serious doubts as to its truth. There is a lot of ink about how innovative Tarasov was, how he was always trying new training techniques and such, but this seems to be much more in the realm of "builder" qualities than coaching, as far as I can tell. What do we actually know about Tarasov's teams - the systems that they used on the ice? That's the important question. I don't really give a crap if he liked to "innovate" by having his guys skate around on one leg for a whole practice, or somesuch.
Just as an example, Tarasov designed and implimented the 1-2-2 syetem that had 2 forwards, 2 rovers, and 1 defenseman.

Quote:
Unfortunately, Tarasov's coaching career ended just as his teams were becoming famous in the western world, so we can only judge his systems indirectly. The Soviet national team circa 1972 and all through the Bobrov/Kulagin era was playing a distinctive style which was quite different from that which prevailed in north american or even european hockey at the time, and I think it is safe to assume that Tarasov's fingerprints are all over the system that those teams were running. And those teams did have a discernable system, with strengths and weaknesses, which can be seen by watching them play. I don't have time to get into all the specifics at this point - I will come back around to this thread before the week is through - but I don't like the characterization of Tarasov as an "any system" sort of coach.
Tarasov and Bobrov were almost opposites in their coaching philosophies.

Quote:
What evidence do we have that Tarasov actually used varied tactical systems with success at the highest level, as men like Blake and Patrick did?
What eveidence do we have that Blake and Patrick successfully implimented varied systems at the top level?

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03-26-2013, 06:07 PM
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What eveidence do we have that Blake and Patrick successfully implimented varied systems at the top level?
Blake: The term "firewagon hockey" was created for the 1950s Canadiens, while the 1960s teams won their Cups playing a much more conservative defense-first style.

Patrick: Was a pretty strict defensive-minded coach in the PCHA/WHL, while his NY Rangers teams were more offensive-minded than most in the conservative 1930s NHL. He won the 1925 Cup for the WCHL playing a high energy / short shift (well, short for that era) system designed to check and wear out the starters for the other team. In New York, he rode the Bread Line hard.

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03-26-2013, 06:32 PM
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Blake: The term "firewagon hockey" was created for the 1950s Canadiens, while the 1960s teams won their Cups playing a much more conservative defense-first style.
Firewagom hockey was just the name given to the system Montreal played. It was played before and after. Montreal just had the players to make it famous.

Did they actually change their style, or did they just lose the talent to remain a high-scoring team?

Quote:
Patrick: Was a pretty strict defensive-minded coach in the PCHA/WHL, while his NY Rangers teams were more offensive-minded than most in the conservative 1930s NHL. He won the 1925 Cup for the WCHL playing a high energy / short shift (well, short for that era) system designed to check and wear out the starters for the other team. In New York, he rode the Bread Line hard.
Weren't the Patrick-coached PCHA teams almost always last in GAA? I wouldn't call that strict defensively.

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03-26-2013, 07:39 PM
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Weren't the Patrick-coached PCHA teams almost always last in GAA? I wouldn't call that strict defensively.
Frank's teams were very offensive minded, and Lester's very defensive minded.

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Muldoon’s teams were unlike those of Frank and Lester Patrick. Frank Patrick won primarily with offense; Lester, with defense and goal-tending. Muldoon’s teams were the most consistently well-balanced in the PCHA.

Frank Patrick was the Glen Sather of his era. Twelve times his teams led the PCHA in offense. Patrick got great output from the greatest scorers of his time. Players like Newsy Lalonde, Gordon Roberts, Cyclone Taylor, Jack Adams, and Art Duncan flourished under his tutelage. All of these men enjoyed hall-of-fame careers as did goalie Hugh Lehman. Conversely his teams only led the league in defense four times and finished last five times. This imbalance is one reason why Patrick failed to win the Stanley Cup when competing against the NHL from 1917-1926.
http://insidehockey.com/profiles-in-...-frank-patrick

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03-26-2013, 08:03 PM
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Blake: The term "firewagon hockey" was created for the 1950s Canadiens,...
I think not because I had come across a quote regarding firewagon hockey in the 1910's and recall having been surprised because I too had thought it a 1950's invention. I will dig up the historical reference to the term firewagon sometime this year (certainly will make a mental note to check in my MLD and AAA travels through my history books) but the history of the word doesn't detract from the main historical point:

"Firewagon hockey" was a term used to describe the 1950s Habs, whether it was a word invented then or borrowed from the past.

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03-26-2013, 09:09 PM
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Okay so I'm reading Road to Olympus now by Tarasov. What I've found is this:

He believed fiercely in teamwork and teammates backing each other up. Basically, a "no one is the star, anyone should be able to tell any teammate to hustle" kind of thing.

-"The second conclusion I made then was that the centre forward had to be the best player on the team."

-"There is simply no place in the game for cowards, squeamish or weak-willed people - there is simply no reason for such people to come out on the ice."

-He defines courage as industriousness. Never being lazy on the ice. Patience and "constancy."

-"Together, with Arkadi Chernishov we give ratings to each player after every game."

-"Hockey is not a game of speed or courage, but of minds."

-He goes into a section about stars. Basically they have to selfless and be willing to fit into the team concept. Having players that are better than the others is fine, as long as they buy in.

-"The essence of our teamwork? Passing!"

-He focuses a lot on how he believes stick-handling is the most important aspect of hockey.

-He focuses on the relationship between he and Cherynshev. The two of them were not together out of choice, but both were in fact appointed. Not as a request, as an order. They were worried at first, but in the end they "never had a single argument. We never undermined each other's prestige."

-"Arkadi Cherishov has an easier nature than mine. He is more soft-spoken, he is more prone to forgive a person. But I have a reputation for being more than harsh."

-"for our creative type of hockey, powerhouse hockey is out of the question. I prefer to see our boys strong and smart at the same time, even sly, in the good sense of the word."

-He really doesn't believe in puck-carrying when leaving the defensive zone. He mentions that he wants no more than two strides before a defenseman whips a pass up to another player who already has a head of steam.

-"The number of passes in the offensive zone must be constantly increased."

-"An attack should be built up rationally." Here, he basically discusses that he thinks that just whipping the puck at goal should be frowned upon, and that more effort should be concerted into getting a good shot.

-I think he may believe in line matching based on this statement: "Sometimes I have been asked if pressing [ed. note: his system] is a defensive or offensive system...Does this answer lie only in the difference of level of their technique and skills? I believe the answer lies in the following: one team employs attacking pressing, while the other resorts to defensive pressing.

*********

Having read a lot of this, I feel pretty strongly that a team should never have one without the other. This was a team, through and through.

Basically, I think these guys are definitely top level coaches when together. They completely overhauled Russian hockey with their tactics and the 1-2-2. Any thoughts here?

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03-26-2013, 09:58 PM
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Very tough division, if I was forced to rank the teams:

Apparently i'm not allowed to rank the teams here....

VERY Concerned with Mystery Alaskans secondary scoring.


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03-26-2013, 10:43 PM
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Frank's teams were very offensive minded, and Lester's very defensive minded.
As I said, his team was almost always last in goals against.

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03-26-2013, 11:56 PM
  #23
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Very tough division, if I was forced to rank the teams:

markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks
Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos
VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears
vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans
Lol good thing the last thing I care about is your opinion on our teams.

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03-27-2013, 12:01 AM
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We have NEVER had open rankings PRIOR to voting on divisional rankings!!!!!!!!!!

This thread is supposed to be about assassinating INDIVIDUAL teams, not getting groupthink about relative worth.

Please delete the rankings. Talk about a particular line-up!

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03-27-2013, 01:47 AM
  #25
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Very tough division, if I was forced to rank the teams:

markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks
Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos
VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears
vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans
Maybe everybody else will like your forwards as much as you do.... but with the divison's worst starting goalie and weakest defense core, as well as a checking line who's best defensive player is Bobby Rousseau, your forwards are going to have to score a hell of a lot of goals.

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