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Old
04-04-2013, 11:41 AM
  #126
Gump Hasek
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Originally Posted by winterpeg View Post
And a good employer can take employees who are different and figure out how to make them all effective. A good employer, and a good leader, will pick the guys that might be tough to manage, but are lights out good when you CAN manage them, and then figure out a way to get the best of them. That differentiates regular companies from great ones.
I understand that. That said, hockey is a team game and if one player is freelancing within team systems play then it screws up the whole. Failing to move the puck in deep tactically with this team and turning it over softly as a result for example has consequences such as a failed forecheck and the puck eventually winding up in the Jets zone versus in the opposition's end of the rink.

This issue with this player has been ongoing and I'm fairly sure they've likely tried many different avenues to integrate the employee into the culture. At some point it is on the employee to adapt, not the employer. To coin a tired phrase, this truly is a results-oriented business and they can't really afford to wait very long for his integration into the culture to occur in a sport where the margins between victory and loss are so narrow.

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04-04-2013, 11:43 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
The tone around Burmistrov discussion here is most often for some reason all about how he is being handled and yet very little of it addresses how he has handled himself, which is the actual crux of the issue. I'm betting that if he was playing the way they want him to play then there would be no internal issues regarding his play! That seems logical, is the most plausible reasoning behind his lack of ice time, and would infer that the player is the issue, not the coach.
Considering how players like Mittens have been given ice time and opportunities on better lines it is pretty clear that if you work hard and listen you will be given every opportunity to succeed.

He is currently offering very little to the team but is still in the lineup. If the situation between Noel and him were as bad as Lawless would like people to believe he would be in the press box till the season end.

EDIT: I agree with your statement, if that isn't apparent in my response.

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04-04-2013, 11:44 AM
  #128
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Don't hate him, just don't get all the hype, two years in and I'm still waiting to see the dynamic player that he was billed as, thought we were getting a Patrick Kane type player but he is looking more like a Sergei Varlamov (who?)
we have almost had scheifele for 2 years
he hasnt done anything in the nhl yet, doesnt mean he wont one day

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04-04-2013, 11:46 AM
  #129
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Looks like Noel is hard on the young players. Schief had the same problem last year his billet said. Maybe Noel should be an NHL coach and not an AHL one.
You don't have to sell me on that, I think Noel is going to get the boot if he can't adapt quickly like Hitch did. Yelling and screaming at youngsters isn't going to work long term.

Having said that Burmistrov has got to stop acting like the spoiled kid who throws a tamper tantrum because his parents won't buy him a chocolate bar. Buckle down swallow your pride and go out and play as instructed!

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04-04-2013, 11:49 AM
  #130
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I'm with you Gump.

I do agree the coaching staff and Burmistrov can hopefully find a common ground here in order to maximize Burmistrov's contributions to the team game, but, with that being said, perhaps that just cannot be done with someone who will not listen. There are only so many ways to possibly get someone to do something; the decision then sits on their (Burmistrov) shoulders. Especially when it boils down to playing a team game.

An employer needs a job done, there may be a few or many different ways of doing it successfully, if said employee cannot maintain a successful way of getting the job done, well, that's on the employee. Has Noel tried different approaches? I don't know, I am not in the room or on the bench.

Every other Jet doesn't seem to have the issues Burmistrov does in terms of playing within the system. No, they're not all very good or productive, but they're at least generally playing within the system.

Burmistrov doesn't have to like Noel, but at the end of the day he must respect him and listen to what he wants the him and the rest of the team to do, whether he likes it or agrees with it or not. Claude Noel is the Head Coach of this team.

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04-04-2013, 11:50 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by jetsfan8 View Post
we have almost had scheifele for 2 years
he hasnt done anything in the nhl yet, doesnt mean he wont one day
SO you don't see the difference between a guy playing 11 NHL games with 4th line minutes and a guy playing 110 (184 counting the Thrashers) NHL games on the 2nd, 3rd and now 4th lines averaging between 15-20 minutes of ice time during those games.

Burmi: 184 NHL games 22 goals 34 assists

Scheff: 11 NHL games 1 goal 0 assists

If Scheff doesn't better or equal Burmi's numbers in the 173 NHL games (to match Burmi's games played) I'll be shocked.


Last edited by sipowicz: 04-04-2013 at 11:59 AM.
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04-04-2013, 11:55 AM
  #132
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I think there has been some improvement with Burmi taking Noel's directions, although it hasn't shown up on the scoreboard (who'd guess with Thorburn and Cormier as partners).

I've been tracking zone entries and exits and have come to notice that since I've been tracking them Burmistrov has been dumping/chipping/passing the puck when the lanes are clogged for the most part. I hope dearly that Noel and Burmistrov are noticing to because it is starting to work well.

In fact he's doing it more often and better! In the last 2 games:
Burmistrov only attempted to carry the puck over three times. All three times he had clear entry and the Jets directed at least one shot on net each time.
Burmistrov attempted to dump the puck 5 times, which is tied with Byfuglien for the most (I don't count line-change dumps to be fair) and no one else has more than two.

The reason why I say I hope both Burmi and Noel notice, is the Jets' have successfully recovered the puck on all of his zone entries in the last two games and have made legitimate shot attempts due to all but one dump in where they didn't recover on the forecheck.

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04-04-2013, 12:00 PM
  #133
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I think Noel yells at everyone actually, we just don't focus on it. I remember last year when a reporter questioned him about yelling at Scheifele during a game, he said something like, 'He's young but he's a man, and he's playing in a man's game.' i.e. that he wasn't going to be coddled because of his age or newness.

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04-04-2013, 12:01 PM
  #134
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Burmi has improved. I can only remember two instances where he held on to the puck too long.

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04-04-2013, 12:01 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by sipowicz View Post
SO you don't see the difference between a guy playing 11 NHL games with 4th line minutes and a guy playing 110 (184 counting the Thrashers) NHL games on the 2nd, 3rd and now 4th lines averaging between 15-20 minutes of ice time during those games.

Burmi: 184 NHL games 22 goals 34 assists

Scheff: 11 NHL games 1 goal 0 assists

If Scheff doesn't better or equal Burmi's numbers in the 173 NHL games (to match Burmi's games played) I'll be shocked.
i do, but what kind if number do you think scheifele would put up if he had played last and this year?

obviously scheifele will pass burmi, because he has been developing in the minors for 2 years, something burmi was robbed of

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04-04-2013, 12:02 PM
  #136
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I dont quite follow the logic of Noel not knowing how to deal with young players. Is this based solely on Burmistrov?

Noel was very successful at the AHL level where he would mostly be dealing with raw younger guys. One would think his strong suit is handling the younger guys who have a thing or two to learn.

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04-04-2013, 12:03 PM
  #137
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And a good employer can take employees who are different and figure out how to make them all effective. A good employer, and a good leader, will pick the guys that might be tough to manage, but are lights out good when you CAN manage them, and then figure out a way to get the best of them. That differentiates regular companies from great ones.

There is no player that is uncoachable, and any coach that says so is making an excuse.

Burmi is not doing what he should be, and that is his fault, but it is still Noel's job to find a way to get through to him, or to reevaluate his stance on Burmi, because he may not be viewing the situation clearly enough based on expectations after benching him, etc.
The problem with this scenario is that Burmistrov has not shown that he fits into a the catagory of being a "lights out good" player that deserves to be over-managed.
Ovechkin would be a player that is deserving of this catagory.

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04-04-2013, 12:05 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by sipowicz View Post
SO you don't see the difference between a guy playing 13 NHL games with 4th line minutes and a guy playing 110 NHL games on the 2nd, 3rd and now 4th lines averaging between 15-20 minutes of ice time during those games.
I look at the Patrick Sharp comparison. Flyers had him for parts of 4 seasons in which he was up and down between the NHL and AHL in fact didn't even play in the NHL in 04/05. They gave up on him and traded him away. It wasn't until his 5th season when he finally broke out. Just saying!

I'm not saying he will turn out as good, but players do take time to develop and sometimes you have to wait on them or risk trading them away before reaping the rewards. The return the Flyers got was insignificant.

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04-04-2013, 12:09 PM
  #139
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I dont quite follow the logic of Noel not knowing how to deal with young players. Is this based solely on Burmistrov?

Noel was very successful at the AHL level where he would mostly be dealing with raw younger guys. One would think his strong suit is handling the younger guys who have a thing or two to learn.
Indeed he's spent 15 years coaching developmental players in the ECHL and AHL. To say 'he doesn't like young players' or 'doesn't know how to handle them/their personalities', is a bit odd.

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04-04-2013, 12:17 PM
  #140
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Indeed he's spent 15 years coaching developmental players in the ECHL and AHL. To say 'he doesn't like young players' or 'doesn't know how to handle them/their personalities', is a bit odd.
So what's his problem with Burmi and Schief? Burmi had pretty good numbers last year.

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04-04-2013, 12:18 PM
  #141
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I look at the Patrick Sharp comparison. Flyers had him for parts of 4 seasons in which he was up and down between the NHL and AHL in fact didn't even play in the NHL in 04/05. They gave up on him and traded him away. It wasn't until his 5th season when he finally broke out. Just saying!

I'm not saying he will turn out as good, but players do take time to develop and sometimes you have to wait on them or risk trading them away before reaping the rewards. The return the Flyers got was insignificant.
Gee, I wonder why that would have been?

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Indeed he's spent 15 years coaching developmental players in the ECHL and AHL. To say 'he doesn't like young players' or 'doesn't know how to handle them/their personalities', is a bit odd.
Well he is not showing anything here. He has not been able to handle young players and place them in positions to succeed. You might say it's the players fault or the player was merely mediocre, I argue the coach has no idea how to manage youngsters, instead going to his AHLers which might be safer, but offer nothing. We'll see, but unless Noel learns how to treat youngsters like Hitchcock did, he will find himself without work for a long time, like Hitchcock did.

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04-04-2013, 12:19 PM
  #142
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Gee, I wonder why that would have been?



Well he is not showing anything here. He has not been able to handle young players and place them in positions to succeed. You might say it's the players fault or the player was merely mediocre, I argue the coach has no idea how to manage youngsters, instead going to his AHLers which might be safer, but offer nothing. We'll see, but unless Noel learns how to treat youngsters like Hitchcock did, he will find himself without work for a long time, like Hitchcock did.
Much like Burmi except in Burmi's case the lockout ended!!!

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04-04-2013, 12:20 PM
  #143
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Winnipeg Jets coach Claude Noel pre-game scrum from Bell Centre



Coach Noel: Talking about Mike Santorelli. Buff as a forward. Was the team distracted by trade deadline? Why are guys pressing? Expectations of the Habs. Evaluation of how team has handled last few weeks. Play of Aaron Gagnon. Signing of Jacob Trouba.

To listen click here.

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04-04-2013, 12:20 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Wings View Post
Indeed he's spent 15 years coaching developmental players in the ECHL and AHL. To say 'he doesn't like young players' or 'doesn't know how to handle them/their personalities', is a bit odd.
There have been plenty if good junior and AHL level coaches that you would think would be good with young players that fail to get the job done at the top. Its really completely different on this level. I personally think Noel uses his veterans too much as a crutch and is slow to put faith in younger players, not saying that these things can't and won't change but for this organization to have any kind of success he is going to need to learn to get the best out of his younger players. Yo this point I'd say the results are pretty mixed.

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04-04-2013, 12:21 PM
  #145
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Gee, I wonder why that would have been?
Lots of players had bad years that year. Not surprising he didn't get any ice time. I think a goaltender was tied for the Rocket Richard trophy for goodness sake!

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04-04-2013, 12:21 PM
  #146
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I understand that. That said, hockey is a team game and if one player is freelancing within team systems play then it screws up the whole. Failing to move the puck in deep tactically with this team and turning it over softly as a result for example has consequences such as a failed forecheck and the puck eventually winding up in the Jets zone versus in the opposition's end of the rink.

This issue with this player has been ongoing and I'm fairly sure they've likely tried many different avenues to integrate the employee into the culture. At some point it is on the employee to adapt, not the employer. To coin a tired phrase, this truly is a results-oriented business and they can't really afford to wait very long for his integration into the culture to occur in a sport where the margins between victory and loss are so narrow.
I agree with most of what you've said here, my only hangup though, is that I think Noel has his "high expecation goggles" on when he watches Burmi play. I think he thinks Burmi is playing (allow me to use some hypothetical ratings here) 5/10, when I think he's actually closer to 6, some nights a 7. Obviously we all know the RAW SKILL SET is there for him to be an 8+ and so Noel should expect more, but I think that he's doing a little better than Claude thinks.

To use Garret's stats as reference, (even though we had a REALLY long argument about them in the Burmi thread, we'll just assume that, since his intent is to take them objectively, they can therefore help paint a picture that the casual observer cannot necessarily see on their own. Kind of like those drawings where two lines look totally different lengths in context, but when you measure them, they are the same) Burmi has actually done a pretty good job of gaining the zone, and having scoring chances result from those zone gains compared to most people, especially Kane's linemates. (The only people who have been definitively better are LLW and Kane, if I remember correctly) Not that this is a be all end all that Burmi is playing well, but I think it's telling that he might be playing a bit more north south than we think, and because we're watching for him to make his old mistakes, we, along with Noel, catch them every time, whereas when other players do a similar thing, (beat their linemates to the zone, and kill time while they wait) we tend not to pick up on it because we don't recognize it as an issue with them.

I think you're partially spot on, but I think it's also an issue of us seeing them because we're looking for them, and so it's easy to think it's a bigger issue than it is. (and while it's no excuse, it might be a partial cause for why Burmi is frustrated with Noel because he HAS partially improved and Noel is just so keyed in on the mistakes now that he hasn't noticed any improvement) It's like how if a girl is pretty and then someone points out something weird you didn't notice before, it's suddenly all you can see when you look at her.

A lot of people like the band Muse, and then someone says "doesn't the singers breathing annoy you though?" and they've never noticed it before, but once someone says it it's all you can hear, and that TOTALLY ruins them for some people. (Didn't ruin them for me, but I digress. )

Anyway.

I think Burmi has issues, but I think there is also a perception problem that is escalating what Noel sees, therefore, how he treats Burmi, and therefore, how Burmi responds. Which is why, as much as I'd HATE to see him go, I think Burmi could very well thrive with a change of scenery.

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04-04-2013, 12:22 PM
  #147
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I'm with you Gump.

I do agree the coaching staff and Burmistrov can hopefully find a common ground here in order to maximize Burmistrov's contributions to the team game, but, with that being said, perhaps that just cannot be done with someone who will not listen. There are only so many ways to possibly get someone to do something; the decision then sits on their (Burmistrov) shoulders. Especially when it boils down to playing a team game.

An employer needs a job done, there may be a few or many different ways of doing it successfully, if said employee cannot maintain a successful way of getting the job done, well, that's on the employee. Has Noel tried different approaches? I don't know, I am not in the room or on the bench.

Every other Jet doesn't seem to have the issues Burmistrov does in terms of playing within the system. No, they're not all very good or productive, but they're at least generally playing within the system.

Burmistrov doesn't have to like Noel, but at the end of the day he must respect him and listen to what he wants the him and the rest of the team to do, whether he likes it or agrees with it or not. Claude Noel is the Head Coach of this team.
Good Post Guerzy. I really like Burmi, I don't think I'm on a "pro" Burmi side, or "anti" Burmi side on this one. I'm on a "Somebody get this relationship and player working in the right direction for the good of the team" side. Most of that has to come from Burmi listening to the coach and trying to change, but Noel also has to be able to handle people differently according to their needs, and if Tough Love isn't going to work with Burmi, he needs to find out what will.


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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
I think there has been some improvement with Burmi taking Noel's directions, although it hasn't shown up on the scoreboard (who'd guess with Thorburn and Cormier as partners).

I've been tracking zone entries and exits and have come to notice that since I've been tracking them Burmistrov has been dumping/chipping/passing the puck when the lanes are clogged for the most part. I hope dearly that Noel and Burmistrov are noticing to because it is starting to work well.

In fact he's doing it more often and better! In the last 2 games:
Burmistrov only attempted to carry the puck over three times. All three times he had clear entry and the Jets directed at least one shot on net each time.
Burmistrov attempted to dump the puck 5 times, which is tied with Byfuglien for the most (I don't count line-change dumps to be fair) and no one else has more than two.

The reason why I say I hope both Burmi and Noel notice, is the Jets' have successfully recovered the puck on all of his zone entries in the last two games and have made legitimate shot attempts due to all but one dump in where they didn't recover on the forecheck.
Very interesting Garret. So the things that Noel dislikes with Burmi, are things that Burmi has improved on? That has to be somewhat positive right?

Make sure Noel gets your analysis.

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04-04-2013, 12:24 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
I think there has been some improvement with Burmi taking Noel's directions, although it hasn't shown up on the scoreboard (who'd guess with Thorburn and Cormier as partners).

I've been tracking zone entries and exits and have come to notice that since I've been tracking them Burmistrov has been dumping/chipping/passing the puck when the lanes are clogged for the most part. I hope dearly that Noel and Burmistrov are noticing to because it is starting to work well.

In fact he's doing it more often and better! In the last 2 games:
Burmistrov only attempted to carry the puck over three times. All three times he had clear entry and the Jets directed at least one shot on net each time.
Burmistrov attempted to dump the puck 5 times, which is tied with Byfuglien for the most (I don't count line-change dumps to be fair) and no one else has more than two.

The reason why I say I hope both Burmi and Noel notice, is the Jets' have successfully recovered the puck on all of his zone entries in the last two games and have made legitimate shot attempts due to all but one dump in where they didn't recover on the forecheck.
I know it was probably lost for the most part last game because he didn't pot one at the end, but his play has improved the last couple of games. Things are looking up.

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04-04-2013, 12:29 PM
  #149
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Good Post Guerzy. I really like Burmi, I don't think I'm on a "pro" Burmi side, or "anti" Burmi side on this one. I'm on a "Somebody get this relationship and player working in the right direction for the good of the team" side. Most of that has to come from Burmi listening to the coach and trying to change, but Noel also has to be able to handle people differently according to their needs, and if Tough Love isn't going to work with Burmi, he needs to find out what will.
Agree with ya, Huffer. I too am not on a pro-Burmi side or anti-Burmi side, I just hope both the player and coach can get on the same page fort he better of the team, both today and headed forward. It's like Torchetti was with Bogosian, just yelled, screamed and swore at him, when in truth Bogosian said himself he needed someone to "talk" to him. Not saying Noel has or hasn't tried different approaches, I am not in a position to know.

I am slightly worried however after reading in the WFP saying Noel always yells and swears at Burmi, and Burmi yells right back. Just doesn't seem like a good relationship there at all. It's possible Burmistrov either asks out this summer or goes to the KHL, in my opinion.

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04-04-2013, 12:36 PM
  #150
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Agree with ya, Huffer. I too am not on a pro-Burmi side or anti-Burmi side, I just hope both the player and coach can get on the same page fort he better of the team, both today and headed forward. It's like Torchetti was with Bogosian, just yelled, screamed and swore at him, when in truth Bogosian said himself he needed someone to "talk" to him. Not saying Noel has or hasn't tried different approaches, I am not in a position to know.

I am slightly worried however after reading in the WFP saying Noel always yells and swears at Burmi, and Burmi yells right back. Just doesn't seem like a good relationship there at all. It's possible Burmistrov either asks out this summer or goes to the KHL, in my opinion.
That worries me as well. I think Burmie is gone at the draft myself, sometimes you just have to cut your loses before you are left with nothing. I however hope we don't have to endure similar stuff with Trouba and Scheifele next year. If Noel isn't willing to play them properly then he should be shown the door this summer as both of them are much more important to the franchise then he'll ever be.

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