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Phoenix LXXIV: Be Seeing You

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04-16-2013, 11:56 AM
  #576
ducks2010
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Apr 16 Budget Workshop streaming right now. Sherry Schurhammer just presented 5 year Revised Balancing Projections - General Fund 5 year Forecast (with Additional Reductions).

Revised General Fund Forecast includes a $6 million per year Arena Management Fee for each of the next 5 years.

Councilmember Sherwood questioned Schurhammer on what revenue the Arena produces annually. She checked and didn't have that exact number (what a surprise), but did have that they project Arena, Westgate, Tanger and Northern Crossings produce about $8 million in revenue annually.

Attached is screen capture of General Fund forecast for next 5 years.

genfund.jpg

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04-16-2013, 12:07 PM
  #577
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^^^ Thats interesting. $6M budgeted for AMF's X 5Yrs. I wonder if they've been reading hf, this thread, my posts & others (?) recommending precisely that and which includes the Coyotes. That $6M however shouldnt be a flat fee, it should broken up, a base retainer paid, performance bonuses written into the contract perhaps then capping out at $6M however if the Manager surpasses certain thresholds they could receive even more as they'll have created more wealth, more to go around. Absent the team, that AMF should be considerably less but again, performance & incentive based.

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04-16-2013, 12:17 PM
  #578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducks2010 View Post
Apr 16 Budget Workshop streaming right now. Sherry Schurhammer just presented 5 year Revised Balancing Projections - General Fund 5 year Forecast (with Additional Reductions).

Revised General Fund Forecast includes a $6 million per year Arena Management Fee for each of the next 5 years.

Councilmember Sherwood questioned Schurhammer on what revenue the Arena produces annually. She checked and didn't have that exact number (what a surprise), but did have that they project Arena, Westgate, Tanger and Northern Crossings produce about $8 million in revenue annually.

Attached is screen capture of General Fund forecast for next 5 years.

Attachment 63175
Nice to have a solid number to work with now, and I agree with Killion-they been reading this site? 5-6 seems to be a much more "realistic" number judging by what I've read on this site the past while-I think it's comparable to what other arena costs are.

Now how this number ties in, if at all, with a Yotes ownership group, that remains the next piece of the puzzle.

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04-16-2013, 12:18 PM
  #579
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This may be a bit open ended, but I have a question about how the Coyotes got to Phoenix in the first place. I was on the east coast at the time, with limited interest in the business aspect of the NHL. But, I remember that there was some interest in Mpls/St Paul about the Jets moving there. Northwest Airlines had something to do with it, because there was some buzz about the "Northwest Jets." It seems, in my rather fuzzy memory, that there were potential owners (I don't remember the names), and I forget which Municipality was working on the situation, but an arena deal fell through, and then the only landing spot was in Phoenix?

Can someone fill in the details for me? If there are links to news articles, that's great, too.

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04-16-2013, 12:28 PM
  #580
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Id say both are serious problems! No owner means the franchise is leaving! Low attendance means no owner will ever emerge. But yet you deny both realities!
The franchise has nowhere to go, period. You deny that reality consistently.

Nobody is ready to take on a franchise, not yet.

Everything else is speculation.

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04-16-2013, 12:30 PM
  #581
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Can someone fill in the details for me?
Burke & Gluckstern initially wanted to move Minneapolis/St.Paul however, they were looking for guarantee's & subsidies that were absolutely rejected by the municipality & rightfully so. Now homeless, I rather suspect Gary Bettman directed them to his old NBA Buddy Jerry Colangelo, who at that time had recently opened the then named AWA, an NHL tenant more than welcome in helping to pay down debt.

Had either Burke or Gluckstern there had a clue about the business to begin with, they'd have realized the Lease Agreement with Colangelo was near on impossible, as revenues from parking to concessions, advertising etc wasnt included, and never mind the fact that you had obstructed seating & generally just a jury rigged type environment to be playing in.

Had they had half a brain between the two of them and were indeed set on Phoenix to begin with, they'd have moved into the old Arizona War Vets Memorial Arena on the State Fair Grounds, renovated & retro-fitted it, gone & got themselves some lunch bucket hard hat hockey players & gone Old School. Packed the joint. Built the brand, a loyal following. Then & only then going to Scottsdale or possibly on the Fair Grounds building a new barn.

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04-16-2013, 12:41 PM
  #582
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Burke & Gluckstern initially wanted to move Minneapolis/St.Paul however, they were looking for guarantee's & subsidies that were absolutely rejected by the municipality & rightfully so. Now homeless, I rather suspect Gary Bettman directed them to his old NBA Buddy Jerry Colangelo, who at that time had recently opened the then named AWA, an NHL tenant more than welcome in helping to pay down debt.

Had either Burke or Gluckstern there had a clue about the business to begin with, they'd have realized the Lease Agreement with Colangelo was near on impossible, as revenues from parking to concessions, advertising etc wasnt included, and never mind the fact that you had obstructed seating & generally just a jury rigged type environment to be playing in.

Had they had half a brain between the two of them and were indeed set on Phoenix to begin with, they'd have moved into the old Arizona War Vets Memorial Arena on the State Fair Grounds, renovated & retro-fitted it, gone & got themselves some lunch bucket hard hat hockey players & gone Old School. Packed the joint. Built the brand, a loyal following. Then & only then going to Scottsdale or possibly on the Fair Grounds building a new barn.
So, Burke and Gluckstern were the original owners in PHX, playing downtown in Colangelo's arena? I didn't know that. I thought Colangelo bought the team when it moved to PHX.

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04-16-2013, 12:46 PM
  #583
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$6 million AMF won't offset losses worth a damn in Phoenix. Anyone owning this team will want the offer Jamison got.

I actually think if you gave Jamison's AMF to Gosbee/Pastor, you might actually have a legitimate ownership pursuer.

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04-16-2013, 12:49 PM
  #584
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Originally Posted by NHLfan4life View Post
The franchise has nowhere to go, period. You deny that reality consistently.

Nobody is ready to take on a franchise, not yet.

Everything else is speculation.
Quebec has been ready ever since new the arena was confirmed. PKP said so.

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04-16-2013, 01:11 PM
  #585
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Just watching the budget meeting... Horatio Skeete is back on the job and is speaking as "Assistant City Manager". I thought he was gone?

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04-16-2013, 01:11 PM
  #586
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
So, Burke and Gluckstern were the original owners... I didn't know
that. I thought Colangelo bought the team when it moved to PHX.
An easy enough mistake to make I suppose. He's been a larger than life figure in Phoenix for decades however no, he at no time owned the franchise. Burke bailed early, buying equity in the New York Islanders which is the area he was originally from, claiming it was his "lifelong dream to own the Islanders", then about 15 minutes later sells to Wang Chung... Gluckstern meanwhile secures Gadabout Rounder Steve Ellman as new partner who eventually buys him out, then, requiring capital, enlists the financial support of one Jerry Moyes, a Mormon outta Utah who knows exactly zero about sports & entertainment properties, marketing & ownership, Steve there digging deep into Jerrys pocket, exchanging shares in the Coyotes for foldin money, next thing you know, Jerry Moyes owns the team lock, stock & barrel.... and hasnt the slightest clue what to do with it. Apparently some members of the NHL BOG's referred to old Jerry as Uncle Jed, as in Jed Clampett of the Beverley Hillbillies of course. Pretty frikin hilarious when you seriously get into all of it. I mean, you cant make this stuff up. Moyes several years ago raiding his childrens trust accounts, lawsuits, just on & on.

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04-16-2013, 01:13 PM
  #587
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Burke & Gluckstern initially wanted to move Minneapolis/St.Paul however, they were looking for guarantee's & subsidies that were absolutely rejected by the municipality & rightfully so. Now homeless, I rather suspect Gary Bettman directed them to his old NBA Buddy Jerry Colangelo, who at that time had recently opened the then named AWA, an NHL tenant more than welcome in helping to pay down debt.

Had either Burke or Gluckstern there had a clue about the business to begin with, they'd have realized the Lease Agreement with Colangelo was near on impossible, as revenues from parking to concessions, advertising etc wasnt included, and never mind the fact that you had obstructed seating & generally just a jury rigged type environment to be playing in.

Had they had half a brain between the two of them and were indeed set on Phoenix to begin with, they'd have moved into the old Arizona War Vets Memorial Arena on the State Fair Grounds, renovated & retro-fitted it, gone & got themselves some lunch bucket hard hat hockey players & gone Old School. Packed the joint. Built the brand, a loyal following. Then & only then going to Scottsdale or possibly on the Fair Grounds building a new barn.
It's not hard to imagine an alternate universe where they did just that, and the jobing.com Arena sits within a sport/entertainment district on the southeast corner of Scottsdale & McDowell, 2 Miles north of the 202 Freeway on ramp, 2.2 miles west of the 101 freeway on ramp, 3 miles from downtown Tempe, 3 miles from downtown Scottsdale, 9 miles from downtown Phoenix, 6 miles from downtown Mesa, 12 miles south of the Ice Den in Scottsdale, 15 miles east of downtown Glendale.

From there it's not hard to imagine the HF BoH board in that universe doesn't have even a "Phoenix I: Bankruptcy Possible" thread.

No doubt even in that universe along the freeways they have billboards that read "If you lived here you'd be home now" (read as 'you would have an owner for your hockey team').

Too bad I posted from this universe...

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04-16-2013, 01:15 PM
  #588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducks2010 View Post
Just watching the budget meeting... Horatio Skeete is back on the job and is speaking as "Assistant City Manager". I thought he was gone?
nope... relegated back to assistant after being stripped of the Acting City Manager title.

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04-16-2013, 01:21 PM
  #589
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Originally Posted by ducks2010 View Post
Just watching the budget meeting... Horatio Skeete is back on the job
and is speaking as "Assistant City Manager". I thought he was gone?
No, he was promoted to Acting Interim City Manager after Beasley amscrayed, then young Horatio was demoted to Assistant City Manager, some old guy dusted off & brought out of retirement from Scottsdale to act as Interim City Manager while a search is undertaken to find a full time replacement. Horatio "encouraged to apply for the job" by the good kind & benevolent Mayor Jerry Weiers the 1st, who first promoted and then demoralising Im sure demoted the Lad back down to Assistant City Manager, and all within the course of a few weeks.... this Weiers guy's reminding more & more of none other than Harold Ballard, and thats pretty damn scary.

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04-16-2013, 01:25 PM
  #590
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How did the NHL not know it's own demgraphics in Phoenix in terms of arena location 3-4 years after being in Phoenix?

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04-16-2013, 01:26 PM
  #591
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
No, he was promoted to Acting Interim City Manager after Beasley amscrayed, then young Horatio was demoted to Assistant City Manager, some old guy dusted off & brought out of retirement from Scottsdale to act as Interim City Manager while a search is undertaken to find a full time replacement. Horatio "encouraged to apply for the job" by the good kind & benevolent Mayor Jerry Weiers the 1st, who first promoted and then demoralising Im sure demoted the Lad back down to Assistant City Manager, and all within the course of a few weeks.... this Weiers guy's reminding more & more of none other than Harold Ballard, and thats pretty damn scary.
That's pretty scary, there are very few people I would compare to "Pal Hal"

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04-16-2013, 01:28 PM
  #592
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How did the NHL not know it's own demgraphics in Phoenix in terms of arena location 3-4 years after being in Phoenix?
Welcome to the debate that has carried over these boards over the past 3 years-alot of opinions and a lot idea, but truth be told finding a simple answer and explantion of Quantum Physics that ALL scientists would agree would be an easier answer

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04-16-2013, 01:31 PM
  #593
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nope... relegated back to assistant after being stripped of the Acting City Manager title.
... yep. what I said M4B, only not quite so... y'know... like Horatios' some poor Captain on Parade in the British Expeditionary Force in 1847 being cashiered. Epaulettes & braids, flags & colours being ripped off of his uniform one by one by a red faced Major with a massive handlebar moustache & mutton chop sideburns... Pith helmet. 138 degrees in the shade. Forced to stand at attention until he drops.

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04-16-2013, 01:55 PM
  #594
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Originally Posted by NHLfan4life View Post
The franchise has nowhere to go, period. You deny that reality consistently.

Nobody is ready to take on a franchise, not yet.

Everything else is speculation.
How do you know QC has not already been cued up by GB without having said so? BTW, contraction would also solve the problem known as Glendale and the Coyotes!

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04-16-2013, 01:57 PM
  #595
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
So, Burke and Gluckstern were the original owners in PHX, playing downtown in Colangelo's arena? I didn't know that. I thought Colangelo bought the team when it moved to PHX.
Burke wanted Minnesota, because at the time he lived there as one of the founders of the company today known as United Healthcare.

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04-16-2013, 02:03 PM
  #596
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Here's what stuck out to me, in no order whatsoever:

- There is a new acting City Manager. He speaks directly. It probably helps that he was not part of the city staff that created the mountain of excrement related to subsidizing the Coyotes.

- City didn't tell bond ratings that they had a structural budget deficit, because they were operating off the Skeete Sheet. The real story is they have an $8MM GF draw down.

- Between FY15-18, the city needs to find $19MM in cuts. But, if they make some budget changes, they can get that number down to $14.5MM in cuts. However, if they make the changes, the Fire Dept may lose accreditation for failing to meet minimum response standards.
. Sherwood is a very competent person. He requested more info on what losing accreditation will mean.
. Martinez is not a very competent person. He offered this: "Are citizens in danger? Yes. Response times are not what they should be. If things get better, this would be our first priority.”

- They talked about the arena a bit.
. MPC debt is 14% of GF budget. The goal is under 10%.
. Sherwood asked about Revenue from Arena. The staff didn’t have a break out but they answered that the revenue from Westgate, Arena, Tanger, Zanjero (sic?), and Northern Crossing is $8MM per year. You can fill in your own joke about providing a $25MM or $15MM AMF for that rate of return.

. As previously indicated, the budget number for AMF is currently $6MM but Sherwood commented : "That $6MM could be much higher" and the situation "… might not shake out until May or June". I’m sure we’re all overjoyed at another seven episodes of the “two weeks” comedy routine. Maybe the council will approve another JIG style AMF. Maybe they wont. They certainly cannot fund it without making some pretty serious budget changes but that's never stopped them before.

- Alvarez was unusually coherent today. Regarding the Fire Department, she mentioned that the city has recently found funding to give a tax rebate to a Car Dealership and to Camelback Ranch which doesn't provide any revenue. Then she offered these gems:
. "We are more like a fantasy land"
. "Deep down, all of you know that we screwed up."

- Knaack didn’t appreciate Alvarez's comments so she said she met with the owner of the dealership and he was a very nice man and a brilliant entrepreneur. She asked Asst City Manager Skeete if the city would make money on the tax rebate. Skeete advised that in 10 years, the city hoped to make a profit - provided that two other dealerships open in the same area. Naturally, Alvarez had more to add after that.
. "I can’t go by someone's spunk or personality"
. "Hopes? I want to deal with reality"
. "It's another Camelback Ranch where we're going to have all this development"

- Everyone should create a widget immediately and go sell it to Yvonne Knaack. She might be the most gullible idiot on the planet.

- At the end, Alvarez slipped back into crazy talk: "We have so much in legal fees. Maybe we can stop calling lawyers so much.” Blasphemy.

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04-16-2013, 02:08 PM
  #597
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NHLfan4life View Post
The franchise has nowhere to go, period. You deny that reality consistently.

Nobody is ready to take on a franchise, not yet.

Everything else is speculation.
As others have already brought up, Quebec City is ready essentially right now. Maybe it'll take a few months to make a few changes to their old arena, a lot of which they've already done or set aside funding for in anticipation that they could get a team before their new arena's built, but they are still ready to go for next season without any doubt.

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04-16-2013, 02:10 PM
  #598
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Another Sunnucks article, Westgate on the rebound, but a Coyotes move would sting

To quote:

"[Zack] Aulick said there is just over 373,200 square feet of office space in the Westgate area, and that space is 61 percent vacant.

“Overall occupied office square footage surrounding Westgate has declined, not improved,” Aulick said."

Source: http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/n....html?page=all

Be seeing you!

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04-16-2013, 02:11 PM
  #599
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But that is using inflation numbers, not what it would be worth if you had invested it in say government bonds, corporate bonds, etc.

Even a small change in interest rate used can lead to a big difference in amounts due to the long time period.
To even muddy the waters more, construction inflation is an entirely different animal from "inflation". In recent years I've been using 10% annual inflation rate to keep my construction estimates where they need to be. Materials and trade labour are up huse yr/yr these days.

TNSE timed things perfectly when they built the MTS Centre for +/- $130M in 2004, I bet today you'd be hard pressed to build it for less than $300M.

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04-16-2013, 02:16 PM
  #600
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Burke wanted Minnesota, because at the time he lived there as one
of the founders of the company today known as United Healthcare.
Oh aye? Was his Mentor Tommy Scallen? A Minnesota native who at one time owned the Ice Capades & Harlem Globetrotters, original owner of the Vancouver Canucks circa 1970/74? Orchestrated a stockplay with a medical company called Medicor & wound up getting thrown in the joint, his sorry ass then Deported from Canada?..... makes sense.

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