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Old
04-17-2013, 08:46 AM
  #401
winterpeg
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Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
But, they committed to a fullout rebuild through 09-10 (got Hall), 10-11 (Nugent-Hopkins) and then last year, 11-12 (Yakupov). 2-3 seasons is not too long for a full rebuild.
You wouldn't include Eberle among that group?

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04-17-2013, 08:59 AM
  #402
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You wouldn't include Eberle among that group?
Not in their "full on rebuild draftees", because he was drafted 1st round, 22nd overall in 2008. They were still in "Calgary mode" at that time, spinning their wheels.

They set out with a plan in 2009-2010, stuck to it, and went through with it. So I am including what they've done within that "rebuild" time period in which they dedicated themselves to.

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04-17-2013, 09:31 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
Not in their "full on rebuild draftees", because he was drafted 1st round, 22nd overall in 2008. They were still in "Calgary mode" at that time, spinning their wheels.

They set out with a plan in 2009-2010, stuck to it, and went through with it. So I am including what they've done within that "rebuild" time period in which they dedicated themselves to.
Fair enough. I didn't follow hockey well enough then to know that he wasn't a top 5 overall. I've always assumed based on his skill level, that he was.

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04-17-2013, 09:59 AM
  #404
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I agree with much of what you say. But I don't consider their rebuild dating back 6 years. As Lowe referred to the other day, those couple or few seasons after the '06 Finals run they were still believing and working that team as a playoff team, pretty much what Calgary has done the last number of years. I agree though that their drafting over the last number of years beyond the 1st round hasn't proven very good, we'll see in the coming years how their most recent drafts turn out.

But, they committed to a fullout rebuild through 09-10 (got Hall), 10-11 (Nugent-Hopkins) and then last year, 11-12 (Yakupov). 2-3 seasons is not too long for a full rebuild. I wouldn't expect a team in such a rebuild to be adding big UFA's, making big trades, etc, there isn't much point given how young your new core players are and the fact you're still in rebuild mode. Some things cannot be accelerated, and Edmonton has been much the same as Winnipeg with and empty prospect cupboard thus minimizing the worthy assets they have/had in order to have a replenished system and have the luxury to then move those prospects or draft picks for worthy NHL roster players.

Last summer was the first in this Oilers rebuild that I would have fully expected them to add the proper pieces, or at least begin to, and they didn't. Any year prior to last I don't blame them for not making those moves to build the team up. Of course you can add pieces along th way, and perhaps they should have done that better, but as far as I am concerned if you're going to rebuild from the ground up there is no fast track and it made little sense to make trades from 2009 to at least 2011/2012. Like I said though, I fully expected them to be mor active last summer and beyond, as the core is in place and it's time to add.
Itís interesting Guerzy.

When you look back at team like Chicago and Pittsburgh that were able to leverage high draft picks and convert them into cup wins something seems different with Edmonton. I am not the best historian so I will have to go back and look at how both those orgs surrounded their young stars with good teammates? I sense Chicago didn't bottom out nearly as hard as Edmonton (Sharp, Seabrook, Keith, Hossa, etc) and Pittsburgh was able to get generational talent with two early picks that are light years ahead of what Edmonton was able to pull out of their 1st overall picks. With Edmonton there is no reason they shouldn't improve now but it feels like there is a missing chip in their organization and the star base foundation is somewhat oddly constructed......too many smallish skill type wingers. That being said it looks like Edmonton will be picking top 8 again this year so perhaps they add another key piece.

I would imagine as the youngins age they will have their time in the sun and who knows maybe Lowe will be vindicated if they find a way to get another cup but man they feel like the gang that couldn't shoot straight and now they have a rookie GM who is saying he is impatient? At the end of the day this is still going to come down to whether their GM can build a decent team around their young talent and that is a question that has yet to be answered.

The other thing is this is the new NHL and they have about a 6 year window now before the first wave of their young guys become UFA's and so that gives them enough time but they are on the clock now. One thing that hasn't helped is that they have not done the best job drafting outside the 1st round.

Hard to hold real talent down though and 3 first overall picks is a heck of a talent base.

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04-17-2013, 10:28 AM
  #405
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As much as people are laughing at the Oilers, myself included, I do give Lowe some credit here. What they have done is what a lot of organizations need to do or want to do, but don't have the stones to do it. Losing sucks, but they've really dug in and took this thing head on. I would never want my organization to encourage losing, and though it does appear the Oilers have done that, honestly, it's part of the process in rebuilding the way they have. Some will like it and others will not.

But, Lowe's words (albeit angry ) were true in my opinion. They built a team that was one win away from a Stanley Cup in 2006, they then did what many upon many teams do, ride out that momentum and team because you just want to keep believing. Then comes a time where you need to pull the plug, tear it down, and start over. Which is what many are calling for the Calgary Flames to do. The Oilers have done that. Now it is time to build it back up, add those necessary pieces and find out what your high draft picks are made of.

Losing is not fun, it's not pretty, but the Oilers have done what they said they would do. So for that, ya, I have to say my hat is off to them. They didn't bail out early on the rebuilding process, they didn't take any shortcuts, they took it head on, embraced it in the thought that it would replenish the Oilers for the next decade and beyond, and hopefully, win a Stanley Cup for two.

Perhaps Lowe needs to go, and it is funny how they do have an old boys club there, but this is it, they've run their rebuilding process to the very end, they have stuck to their guns through it all, and now it's time to put their money where their mouths are. If the Jets were to say 'this isn't working, this group needs to be torn apart', they will not rebuild through trades and free agency, it's going to come naturally through the draft process. And when you do that, it takes time, and patience, and at least 2-3 years where you can draft the necessary pieces to form that key foundation.

There are multiple way to build and assemble a team, but when you are as dry and empty as the Oilers were, the best way can be tearing it down and building through the draft. They have done that. They take a lot of flack and laughs for it, but they have done it.
Guerz, I think that the bolded above is debatable.

I was in Calgary when they went to one win away from the Cup. Like Edmonton - I believe those "runs" were a mirage. Calgary was a very "fortunate" team that rode extremely hot goaltending - and some really timely scoring (hello Martin Gelinas). In my opinion the hockey department should have realized that they were not that good of a team - and that contending was not sustainable. To me the Oil looked like a carbon copy...just that they actually realized it sooner than Calgary and started the rebuild.

However, in that rebuild (besides picking no-brainer high draft picks) - it appears they have done little else to try and contend for their fans that have been waiting patiently from before their Stanley Cup "mirage" (my words). To me that is on Lowe, and his arrogance was stunning.

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04-17-2013, 10:36 AM
  #406
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Guerz, I think that the bolded above is debatable.

I was in Calgary when they went to one win away from the Cup. Like Edmonton - I believe those "runs" were a mirage. Calgary was a very "fortunate" team that rode extremely hot goaltending - and some really timely scoring (hello Martin Gelinas). In my opinion the hockey department should have realized that they were not that good of a team - and that contending was not sustainable. To me the Oil looked like a carbon copy...just that they actually realized it sooner than Calgary and started the rebuild.

However, in that rebuild (besides picking no-brainer high draft picks) - it appears they have done little else to try and contend for their fans that have been waiting patiently from before their Stanley Cup "mirage" (my words). To me that is on Lowe, and his arrogance was stunning.
Good points, certainly. I guess I was just giving credit where due given they did run to the Finals, Cinderella or not, repeatable or not. I think many teams in that position would ride it out as far as possible in believing maybe there was something left in that tank.

The Oilers "rebuild" is certainly open to question and criticism, I definitely won't deny that. I just think they chose a way of going about it and really stuck to it, whether it looked good or not, or was the right way to go about it or not. All open for debate, certainly.

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04-17-2013, 10:40 AM
  #407
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It’s interesting Guerzy.

When you look back at team like Chicago and Pittsburgh that were able to leverage high draft picks and convert them into cup wins something seems different with Edmonton. I am not the best historian so I will have to go back and look at how both those orgs surrounded their young stars with good teammates? I sense Chicago didn't bottom out nearly as hard as Edmonton (Sharp, Seabrook, Keith, Hossa, etc) and Pittsburgh was able to get generational talent with two early picks that are light years ahead of what Edmonton was able to pull out of their 1st overall picks. With Edmonton there is no reason they shouldn't improve now but it feels like there is a missing chip in their organization and the star base foundation is somewhat oddly constructed......too many smallish skill type wingers. That being said it looks like Edmonton will be picking top 8 again this year so perhaps they add another key piece.

I would imagine as the youngins age they will have their time in the sun and who knows maybe Lowe will be vindicated if they find a way to get another cup but man they feel like the gang that couldn't shoot straight and now they have a rookie GM who is saying he is impatient? At the end of the day this is still going to come down to whether their GM can build a decent team around their young talent and that is a question that has yet to be answered.

The other thing is this is the new NHL and they have about a 6 year window now before the first wave of their young guys become UFA's and so that gives them enough time but they are on the clock now. One thing that hasn't helped is that they have not done the best job drafting outside the 1st round.

Hard to hold real talent down though and 3 first overall picks is a heck of a talent base.
All good points, ps. Like I said the other day, the pressure is now 100% on the Oilers to succeed, no question about it. They will either find their footing and become the team their potential indicates they can become, or it's going to be an epic failure of 1st overall picks and a rebuild that blows up in their faces.

One thing is for sure now, they're on the clock to turn this thing around and make it right and the hour glass has now been turned. Put your actions where your mouths, errr... "Stanley Cup winning experience" is, boys. Within a year or two, Lowe, MacTavish, etc, will either be heroes or they're going to be run out of the city with pitchforks and flames.

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04-17-2013, 11:12 AM
  #408
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When you look back at team like Chicago and Pittsburgh that were able to leverage high draft picks and convert them into cup wins something seems different with Edmonton. I am not the best historian so I will have to go back and look at how both those orgs surrounded their young stars with good teammates? I sense Chicago didn't bottom out nearly as hard as Edmonton (Sharp, Seabrook, Keith, Hossa, etc) and Pittsburgh was able to get generational talent with two early picks that are light years ahead of what Edmonton was able to pull out of their 1st overall picks.
Keep in mind, Pitt won the "Sydney Crosby Sweepstakes" lottery. (The draft after the season was lost, where everyone had equal chance) And it stands to reason that based on how quickly they shot up after that, they very well might have been a better team than a 1st overall pick, (or 2nd, where they took Malkin the year before) if that season had played out. They got lucky there. They'd be good with everyone they have minus Crosby, (as was proven when he was out) but another team with Crosby, would also be great, had Pitt not won him as a door prize in that years entry draft.

Chigaco though, is a great example. They've transitioned a few high overall draft picks, and some other smart moves into a great core that's still young, and super effective. The key thing about Chicago though, and the difference between them and Edmonton is Chicago took a variance of player styles. Kieth, Seabrook, Toews and Kane (4 of their #1 picks through 6 years, except Kieth, who was a second) are not a one dimensional group like Eberle, Hall, Nuge and Yak are.

I mean, Kieth was a second rounder and turned out great, so they got lucky there, but Edmonton got, I would argue, top 5 talent with a 22nd in Eberle, too, so they got more than you usually get out of 22nd overall. But partially due to better team building, and partially due to not picking 1st overall so many times, Chicago built a varied core, and filled many needs instead of just taking BAP, like Edmonton did.

BAP will turn out to be a good strategy for edmonton if they turn around and deal from their position of strength, to fill holes in other positions, because having better players will net better returns in the deal. Otherwise, always picking BAP is going to cost them.

I guess they get Jones if they win the lottery this year though.

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04-17-2013, 11:16 AM
  #409
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Keep in mind, Pitt won the "Sydney Crosby Sweepstakes" lottery. (The draft after the season was lost, where everyone had equal chance) And it stands to reason that based on how quickly they shot up after that, they very well might have been a better team than a 1st overall pick, (or 2nd, where they took Malkin the year before) if that season had played out. They got lucky there. They'd be good with everyone they have minus Crosby, (as was proven when he was out) but another team with Crosby, would also be great, had Pitt not won him as a door prize in that years entry draft.

Chigaco though, is a great example. They've transitioned a few high overall draft picks, and some other smart moves into a great core that's still young, and super effective. The key thing about Chicago though, and the difference between them and Edmonton is Chicago took a variance of player styles. Kieth, Seabrook, Toews and Kane (4 of their #1 picks through 6 years, except Kieth, who was a second) are not a one dimensional group like Eberle, Hall, Nuge and Yak are.

I mean, Kieth was a second rounder and turned out great, so they got lucky there, but Edmonton got, I would argue, top 5 talent with a 22nd in Eberle, too, so they got more than you usually get out of 22nd overall. But partially due to better team building, and partially due to not picking 1st overall so many times, Chicago built a varied core, and filled many needs instead of just taking BAP, like Edmonton did.

BAP will turn out to be a good strategy for edmonton if they turn around and deal from their position of strength, to fill holes in other positions, because having better players will net better returns in the deal. Otherwise, always picking BAP is going to cost them.

I guess they get Jones if they win the lottery this year though.
Everyone didn't have an equal chance to get Crosby. Every team had a chance to get first overall, but it wasn't equal.

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04-17-2013, 11:29 AM
  #410
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Everyone didn't have an equal chance to get Crosby. Every team had a chance to get first overall, but it wasn't equal.
I stand corrected. Thanks for noting.

*wikipedia's draft lottery as I read it too fast last time*

However, it was far more of a "lottery win" (as opposed to a solely standings based decision) than it was in past years. Coupled with the fact that the standings that WERE considered were no different than those of the year before, so teams who sucked the year before got good draft picks twice. (Though, as I'm looking it up, it does show past playoff appearances and standings from a few years before were also weighted in).

Point is, the luck of winning that lottery gets credit for a bunch of pittsburgs rebuild. If malkin had a good rookie season and Fleury settled in in that year that never was, they could have picked anywhere from 5 - 15 (1 - 30, if we're being technical, but you know what I mean) instead of where they did.

So the final, and most key piece, of their team was based more on luck than good management.

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04-17-2013, 11:36 AM
  #411
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I think all of these (6) outdoor games the NHL plans on doing next season is silly. Too many. It is a cherished event when they do the Winter Classic and 24/7, I'd like them to leave it at that.

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04-17-2013, 11:41 AM
  #412
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Good points, certainly. I guess I was just giving credit where due given they did run to the Finals, Cinderella or not, repeatable or not. I think many teams in that position would ride it out as far as possible in believing maybe there was something left in that tank.

The Oilers "rebuild" is certainly open to question and criticism, I definitely won't deny that. I just think they chose a way of going about it and really stuck to it, whether it looked good or not, or was the right way to go about it or not. All open for debate, certainly.
I hear what you are saying...Lowe really stuck in my craw with his defiance vs. deference. I found it distasteful and arrogant, and was struck by his incredulous tone about patience -after he just fired a guy!

MacTavish was way more credible with his tone and approach, I heard a guy saying it was unacceptable where they were, and he is impatient. Translation to me - these guys have just been sitting around waiting for it to happen

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04-17-2013, 11:57 AM
  #413
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I hear what you are saying...Lowe really stuck in my craw with his defiance vs. deference. I found it distasteful and arrogant, and was struck by his incredulous tone about patience -after he just fired a guy!

MacTavish was way more credible with his tone and approach, I heard a guy saying it was unacceptable where they were, and he is impatient. Translation to me - these guys have just been sitting around waiting for it to happen
Ya, I didn't like Lowe's attitude either, he didn't present himself in a professional manner at all. Ironically enough, on the Oilers website there is an apology from Lowe for some of the things he said (but didn't mean to?). The Oilers didn't only take a hit because of firing another GM and not fixing that roster, they took a hit in my opinion because of Lowe's ridiculous actions. I still can't believe he came off as rude, smug and unprofessional as he did. You have to keep things in check in his position and he failed big time.

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04-17-2013, 12:05 PM
  #414
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Remember when Craig Mactavish killed someone while drunk driving.

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04-17-2013, 12:54 PM
  #415
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Ya, I didn't like Lowe's attitude either, he didn't present himself in a professional manner at all. Ironically enough, on the Oilers website there is an apology from Lowe for some of the things he said (but didn't mean to?). The Oilers didn't only take a hit because of firing another GM and not fixing that roster, they took a hit in my opinion because of Lowe's ridiculous actions. I still can't believe he came off as rude, smug and unprofessional as he did. You have to keep things in check in his position and he failed big time.
I'm pretty sure Lowe received a nice phone call from Katz after his display.

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04-17-2013, 01:10 PM
  #416
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I think all of these (6) outdoor games the NHL plans on doing next season is silly. Too many. It is a cherished event when they do the Winter Classic and 24/7, I'd like them to leave it at that.
100% agree

These games feel very gimmicky to me and 6 seems like at least 4 too many in a year and a ridiculous cash grab. This appears to be a bit of a golden goose and I have no idea why they have jumped from 1 all the way to 6? I get that they thought it might be a good idea to capture an audience in NY while they were going to be playing a super bowl but one extra game would have been lots with the game in Michigan. I assume it will mean huge revenu but I would be concerned about watering down a cash cow.

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04-17-2013, 01:28 PM
  #417
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I hear what you are saying...Lowe really stuck in my craw with his defiance vs. deference. I found it distasteful and arrogant, and was struck by his incredulous tone about patience -after he just fired a guy!

MacTavish was way more credible with his tone and approach, I heard a guy saying it was unacceptable where they were, and he is impatient. Translation to me - these guys have just been sitting around waiting for it to happen
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Ya, I didn't like Lowe's attitude either, he didn't present himself in a professional manner at all. Ironically enough, on the Oilers website there is an apology from Lowe for some of the things he said (but didn't mean to?). The Oilers didn't only take a hit because of firing another GM and not fixing that roster, they took a hit in my opinion because of Lowe's ridiculous actions. I still can't believe he came off as rude, smug and unprofessional as he did. You have to keep things in check in his position and he failed big time.
Yea I will hop in for the piling on penalty (Ok I know my new Avatar is a bit of a troll job and I will switch it out soon)

Kevin looked like he got blindsided by some tough questions and was so unprofessional and really kept stepping in it. Was he really expecting a free pass when introducing a rookie GM that is his friend? Where do you start with a guy that quotes his record as a player 30 years ago ("I" have won more Stanley cups) in defense of his futile achievements as an executive of 14 years and counting? Then he makes an outlandish statement that half the teams in the NHL would swap rosters with the Oilers which begs the question "why did you just fire your GM then"?? Then he insults fans as the paying kind and the others that watch (or something to that degree)???

Someone on the main board made a great point that Kevin was groomed perfectly by his predecessor Glen Sather to be smug and arrogant and ride the glory days train while playing footsy with the decision makers and keeping their bosses confused and bluffed for decades on end while having terrible track records.

I like Mac T and wish him all the best but Lowe is a clown and his fan boy owner should be ashamed

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04-17-2013, 01:52 PM
  #418
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I stand corrected. Thanks for noting.

*wikipedia's draft lottery as I read it too fast last time*

However, it was far more of a "lottery win" (as opposed to a solely standings based decision) than it was in past years. Coupled with the fact that the standings that WERE considered were no different than those of the year before, so teams who sucked the year before got good draft picks twice. (Though, as I'm looking it up, it does show past playoff appearances and standings from a few years before were also weighted in).

Point is, the luck of winning that lottery gets credit for a bunch of pittsburgs rebuild. If malkin had a good rookie season and Fleury settled in in that year that never was, they could have picked anywhere from 5 - 15 (1 - 30, if we're being technical, but you know what I mean) instead of where they did.

So the final, and most key piece, of their team was based more on luck than good management.
Malkin didn't come over to the NHL until the 06-07 season (one year after the lockout ended), so what makes you think he would have played for the Penguins in the 04-05 season?

If anything, the Penguins would have had a much better chance of winning the Crosby lottery than they actually did, if the lockout season had been played.

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04-17-2013, 01:57 PM
  #419
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Yea I will hop in for the piling on penalty (Ok I know my new Avatar is a bit of a troll job and I will switch it out soon)

Kevin looked like he got blindsided by some tough questions and was so unprofessional and really kept stepping in it. Was he really expecting a free pass when introducing a rookie GM that is his friend? Where do you start with a guy that quotes his record as a player 30 years ago ("I" have won more Stanley cups) in defense of his futile achievements as an executive of 14 years and counting? Then he makes an outlandish statement that half the teams in the NHL would swap rosters with the Oilers which begs the question "why did you just fire your GM then"?? Then he insults fans as the paying kind and the others that watch (or something to that degree)???

Someone on the main board made a great point that Kevin was groomed perfectly by his predecessor Glen Sather to be smug and arrogant and ride the glory days train while playing footsy with the decision makers and keeping their bosses confused and bluffed for decades on end while having terrible track records.

I like Mac T and wish him all the best but Lowe is a clown and his fan boy owner should be ashamed
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl-...224722425.html

I really liked this article

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04-17-2013, 02:08 PM
  #420
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Yea he nailed it in the article.

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04-17-2013, 02:40 PM
  #421
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Ryan White suspended 5 games, so that means he won't play against us on the 25th.

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04-17-2013, 02:56 PM
  #422
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Klowe is getting ripped on the radio about having a picture of him hoisting the Stanley Cup in a New York Rangers uniform behind him in his video apology to the fans. When it rains it pours, lol.

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04-17-2013, 02:59 PM
  #423
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I'm pretty sure Lowe received a nice phone call from Katz after his display.
Doubt it. Aparently him and Katz are buddies and their wives are bff's.

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04-17-2013, 07:35 PM
  #424
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MTL is getting whupped

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04-17-2013, 07:38 PM
  #425
Savagestevo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom ServoMST3K View Post
MTL is getting whupped
On the wrong end of 3 blowouts in a row now.

This actually effects the Jets because now it's more likely they'll actually try to win in that game the Jets face them in.

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