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Official Jets coaching discussion (Noel sucks! Noel rules! and everything in between)

View Poll Results: Should the Jets extend Claude Noel? (Contract expires in 2014)
Yes (1 year extension) 28 38.89%
Yes (multi-year extension) 19 26.39%
No 25 34.72%
Voters: 72. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-06-2013, 10:14 AM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Channelcat View Post
I disagree completely. Considering that we played in the weakest division. Considering that Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal all made the playoffs. Also with respect to our line up, I don't see it as a being under talented, rather I see it as underachieving.

But honestly my criticism of Noel stems more from what I see the team doing than from actual results. I don't think Claude understands the schemes. How often have you had to do a double take to make sure we aren't short handed when we start running around in our own end for a full shift? This a team that continually collapses in the defensive zone, a team that doesn't apply forward pressure, a team that doesn't put put bodies in front of the net, a team that can't establish lines (other than Ladd Little Wheeler) so at some point you have to consider maybe its not just a case of the players not doing what they are told.
It is weird to me that Noel "trusts" players like Olli Jokinen, Chris Thorburn and James Wright and thus rewards with ice time despite them consistenly having some of the worst shot and goal plus/minuses on the team. Meanwhile players like Kyle Wellwood and Alexander Burmistrov are more effective at both creating offence and preventing goals against and they spent a bunch of time in the press box.

Plus Olli on the point of the PK.
Plus Wellwood almost never taking draws despite being the 2nd best FO man on the team.
Fun Fact: Wellwood has a 55.2% career mark. Slater is 55.3%
I really have no idea what coach was doing with Kaner either Noel handcuffed him with Mittens and Olli.

There were better options in a handful of situations.

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05-06-2013, 10:18 AM
  #252
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My thinking is that extending him sends the message that he’s done a good job. At best, he’s done a mediocre job, imo.

I don’t see a problem with giving the impression that he’s on the hot seat, because he should be. If his players want him to stay around, they should play harder (and if they don’t want him to stick around, then we have issues already). If he wants to stay around, he should make better coaching decisions.

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05-06-2013, 10:39 AM
  #253
Hank Chinaski
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Originally Posted by KCjetsfan View Post
My thinking is that extending him sends the message that he’s done a good job. At best, he’s done a mediocre job, imo.

I don’t see a problem with giving the impression that he’s on the hot seat, because he should be. If his players want him to stay around, they should play harder (and if they don’t want him to stick around, then we have issues already). If he wants to stay around, he should make better coaching decisions.
A one-year extension accomplishes that just fine. Not extending at all basically sends the message that he'll be fired at the drop of a hat, and the only reason he isn't fired is because they haven't found a suitable replacement.

If that's the message you (not you specifically KCjets) believe he deserves, fine. I would prepare to be disappointed though, because I'm fairly certain that runs completely counter to how TNSE wants to run this organization.

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05-06-2013, 11:06 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
A one-year extension accomplishes that just fine. Not extending at all basically sends the message that he'll be fired at the drop of a hat, and the only reason he isn't fired is because they haven't found a suitable replacement.

If that's the message you (not you specifically KCjets) believe he deserves, fine. I would prepare to be disappointed though, because I'm fairly certain that runs completely counter to how TNSE wants to run this organization.
A non-extension is giving the players an excuse for their piss poor play and complete lack of effort (not all the players but there are some). Baisically telling them the coach is to blame, not them.And telling them if they don't bother showing up next season again it will fall on the coach.

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05-06-2013, 11:23 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
A non-extension is giving the players an excuse for their piss poor play and complete lack of effort (not all the players but there are some). Baisically telling them the coach is to blame, not them.And telling them if they don't bother showing up next season again it will fall on the coach.
Which players didn't compete or try?

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05-06-2013, 11:42 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
A non-extension is giving the players an excuse for their piss poor play and complete lack of effort (not all the players but there are some). Baisically telling them the coach is to blame, not them.And telling them if they don't bother showing up next season again it will fall on the coach.
Agreed. To me, it wasn't even so much poor play and lack of effort, it was inconsistent adherance to what coach Noel was preaching.

The two players being cited as guys who got the short shrift from Noel (Wellwood and Burmistrov) also happened to be the two guys who freelanced the most outside of maybe Byfuglien. Conversely, the guys who seemed to get unfairly preferential treatment, namely Jokinen and Wright, actually played the simple up and down game that Noel wants.

You can argue effectiveness all you want, at some level it does come down to playing within the structure that has been set out.

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05-06-2013, 12:09 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
A one-year extension accomplishes that just fine. Not extending at all basically sends the message that he'll be fired at the drop of a hat, and the only reason he isn't fired is because they haven't found a suitable replacement.

If that's the message you (not you specifically KCjets) believe he deserves, fine. I would prepare to be disappointed though, because I'm fairly certain that runs completely counter to how TNSE wants to run this organization.
The only reason I'd give him a one year extension is because I don't want to see back against the wall coaching from him next year. By that I mean him riding the vets and Pavs even harder. I would like to see him realize that his future here will be decided on how well he can integrate are promising youngsters into the team because let's face it the only way this team is going to be good is if we can turn Scheifele, Trouba, Lowery etc into key players that can augement the core we currently have.

As of right now I'm not too much of a fan of his work:

The team has a poorly structured breakout and I also hate how he has all of our players collapse in the dzone.

The pp scheme is terrible and predictable and our zone entries are horribly disjointed.

Having said that there are some positives:

Pk was much better by the end of the year.

5 on 5 zone entries were effective as was our cycle game.

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05-06-2013, 12:25 PM
  #258
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There may be other issues that Chevy/TNSE are just not happy with in terms of Noel.

One thing is his relationship with the players. Noel's handling of Schief - now we all agree that he needed further developing - nevertheless it may be an issue with Chevy.
Noel's relationship with Burmi - again, yes, we know that Burmi was largely ineffective but sometimes it takes a certain coach to motivate certain players. Maybe that was an issue. Or how Pavelec was overused...again.

All speculation. If Noel gets his extension, great. If not, then I suspect there were deeper issues at play other than the team's record in the last two years.

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05-06-2013, 12:47 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
Agreed. To me, it wasn't even so much poor play and lack of effort, it was inconsistent adherance to what coach Noel was preaching.

The two players being cited as guys who got the short shrift from Noel (Wellwood and Burmistrov) also happened to be the two guys who freelanced the most outside of maybe Byfuglien. Conversely, the guys who seemed to get unfairly preferential treatment, namely Jokinen and Wright, actually played the simple up and down game that Noel wants.

You can argue effectiveness all you want, at some level it does come down to playing within the structure that has been set out.
I agree that adherence to the system is important, but it does say something when adherence to the system doesn't work. Even LLW do all sorts of stuff that doesn't really fit into the system, but Little and Ladd are good at covering up warts when one of them messes up and clearly they score enough to make up for it. Question is, how effective is the system when the very few can follow it and not get worked.

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05-06-2013, 12:52 PM
  #260
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Well said Truck, I'm not sold on Noel's system as a whole. There are parts of it that work and parts that leave me scratching my head.

We shall see next year!

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05-06-2013, 12:55 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by surixon View Post
The only reason I'd give him a one year extension is because I don't want to see back against the wall coaching from him next year. By that I mean him riding the vets and Pavs even harder. I would like to see him realize that his future here will be decided on how well he can integrate are promising youngsters into the team because let's face it the only way this team is going to be good is if we can turn Scheifele, Trouba, Lowery etc into key players that can augement the core we currently have.

As of right now I'm not too much of a fan of his work:

The team has a poorly structured breakout and I also hate how he has all of our players collapse in the dzone.

The pp scheme is terrible and predictable and our zone entries are horribly disjointed.

Having said that there are some positives:

Pk was much better by the end of the year.

5 on 5 zone entries were effective as was our cycle game.
One of our number munchers munched some numbers and saw a similar improvement in the Powerplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Hemsky
PP numbers increased significantly over the 2nd half. I had them at 38.6 SF/60 over the first half. That would put them somewhere around 50.5 SF/60 over the second half which is top 3rd in the league.
Year end shots per/60 was 44.8 (22nd in the league)

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05-06-2013, 01:06 PM
  #262
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One of our number munchers munched some numbers and saw a similar improvement in the Powerplay.


Year end shots per/60 was 44.8 (22nd in the league)
Interesting, well I guess we shall see what it looks like next year.

As I've stated realistic goals should be for us to have mid table specialty teams (13-17 range)

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05-06-2013, 01:10 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
If that's the message you (not you specifically KCjets) believe he deserves, fine. I would prepare to be disappointed though, because I'm fairly certain that runs completely counter to how TNSE wants to run this organization.
Oh I'm under no impression he won't get extended. I just answered based on the question asked 'Should Noel get extended'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
A non-extension is giving the players an excuse for their piss poor play and complete lack of effort (not all the players but there are some). Baisically telling them the coach is to blame, not them.And telling them if they don't bother showing up next season again it will fall on the coach.
I don't see that as much different than having a coach who will not hold some players responsible for piss poor play. I also think there are certain moves that could be done by Chevy &/or the coach to show that players have accountability as well.

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05-07-2013, 10:56 AM
  #264
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all i'm going to say is "lack of effort" is one of the most annoying things to read. It's a total cop out. To be honest i don't believe you can even "see" a lack of effort, considering we seem to entirely based "effort" on the speed in which our players move with or without the puck. Obviously, the proper system and checking from an opposing team makes it very difficult to get any momentum and makes it look like you've got no "effort".

Surely anyone that's even played low level rec league has been in games like that, where no matter how hard you work and your team tries you just can't get any momentum, hold onto the puck long enough to pick up steam, or complete a pass.


It's just a pretty big cop out from a critical perspective IMO. If I didn't constantly see effort/heart mentioned analogously for being shut down by tight checking I would accept it, but I think what a lot of us see as "effort" is often just being outplayed.

Personally, i'm very wary of Noel. I love his media sessions. I think he did ok for the talent level with the team (not impressive). But I really really question his player management. he has too much patience for guys in the system and "working it out" (which he mentioned frequently in post games, "they just need to work it out"). To noel, success outside the system (nay, success with occasional forays outside the system) seemed far more punishable then complete failure within the system. Kanes line played best with a combo of Wellwood, Antro, and Burmi on it, yet he tried to "work it out" with jokinen, mittens, wright, and pretty much everyone else for 20+ games and it never did "get going".

Mix in the handling of Schiefele, the absolute refusal of resting pav's and some comments he had in the media(one interview in particular talking about being with the AHL team, milwaukee maybe, and saying how everyone had to work there way up through the lineup, everyone had to go to the ahl first, and how he liked that - it literal seemed like he was catching himself from saying "that's what we should be doing") it very much makes me question his ability to coach a team with this particular makeup.

Hopefully he proves me wrong, but i'm very concerned about how he will use our young players.

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05-07-2013, 11:19 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
all i'm going to say is "lack of effort" is one of the most annoying things to read. It's a total cop out. To be honest i don't believe you can even "see" a lack of effort, considering we seem to entirely based "effort" on the speed in which our players move with or without the puck. Obviously, the proper system and checking from an opposing team makes it very difficult to get any momentum and makes it look like you've got no "effort".

Surely anyone that's even played low level rec league has been in games like that, where no matter how hard you work and your team tries you just can't get any momentum, hold onto the puck long enough to pick up steam, or complete a pass.


It's just a pretty big cop out from a critical perspective IMO. If I didn't constantly see effort/heart mentioned analogously for being shut down by tight checking I would accept it, but I think what a lot of us see as "effort" is often just being outplayed.

Personally, i'm very wary of Noel. I love his media sessions. I think he did ok for the talent level with the team (not impressive). But I really really question his player management. he has too much patience for guys in the system and "working it out" (which he mentioned frequently in post games, "they just need to work it out"). To noel, success outside the system (nay, success with occasional forays outside the system) seemed far more punishable then complete failure within the system. Kanes line played best with a combo of Wellwood, Antro, and Burmi on it, yet he tried to "work it out" with jokinen, mittens, wright, and pretty much everyone else for 20+ games and it never did "get going".

Mix in the handling of Schiefele, the absolute refusal of resting pav's and some comments he had in the media(one interview in particular talking about being with the AHL team, milwaukee maybe, and saying how everyone had to work there way up through the lineup, everyone had to go to the ahl first, and how he liked that - it literal seemed like he was catching himself from saying "that's what we should be doing") it very much makes me question his ability to coach a team with this particular makeup.

Hopefully he proves me wrong, but i'm very concerned about how he will use our young players.
Well said, contrast this with what MacLean said the other day about Pague (sp) and people should have cause for concern. For those wondering MaClean was asked a question about Pageu getting more ice time and McLean said that he will play the players that are playing the best and if at the end of the game said player isn't near the top in ice time then he said that he and the coaches did a poor job. Very refreshing, no politics, you get what you earn and that goes for all players, vets don't get a free pass under him. I only hope Noel realizes this before next year.

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05-07-2013, 11:23 AM
  #266
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Originally Posted by New Jets View Post
There may be other issues that Chevy/TNSE are just not happy with in terms of Noel.

One thing is his relationship with the players. Noel's handling of Schief - now we all agree that he needed further developing - nevertheless it may be an issue with Chevy.
Noel's relationship with Burmi - again, yes, we know that Burmi was largely ineffective but sometimes it takes a certain coach to motivate certain players. Maybe that was an issue. Or how Pavelec was overused...again.

All speculation. If Noel gets his extension, great. If not, then I suspect there were deeper issues at play other than the team's record in the last two years.
I'm pretty sure the handling of Scheif was done in complete concert with Chevy considering the contract ramifications.

Beyond that, I have no idea how Chevy handles other issues, but make no mistake about it, on many teams the coaches hands are often tied in regards to lineups dictated by the GM or even the owners.

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05-07-2013, 12:14 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
I'm pretty sure the handling of Scheif was done in complete concert with Chevy considering the contract ramifications.

Beyond that, I have no idea how Chevy handles other issues, but make no mistake about it, on many teams the coaches hands are often tied in regards to lineups dictated by the GM or even the owners.
Absolutely, Chevy is also culpable in that as it was as clear as day that Mark was never going to get a legit chance to stick this year and that probably came from management. The completely stacked the deck heavily against him this year by playing him out of position on the 4th line. The moment he got into the middle of the ice with good players he looked like he belonged and then subsequently didn't see a game after. To me it looked like management was scared that he'd run with it if given another oppertunity which would run countary to their plan.

I still find it puzzling that the org seemed afraid to let him run with it this year (I get the contract angle, don't agree, but understand). It is possible that management made the correct decision sending him back as he has seemingly found another gear in the OHL but I still believe the situation could have been handled far better by the org. I

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05-07-2013, 12:19 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
all i'm going to say is "lack of effort" is one of the most annoying things to read. It's a total cop out. To be honest i don't believe you can even "see" a lack of effort, considering we seem to entirely based "effort" on the speed in which our players move with or without the puck. Obviously, the proper system and checking from an opposing team makes it very difficult to get any momentum and makes it look like you've got no "effort".

Surely anyone that's even played low level rec league has been in games like that, where no matter how hard you work and your team tries you just can't get any momentum, hold onto the puck long enough to pick up steam, or complete a pass.


It's just a pretty big cop out from a critical perspective IMO. If I didn't constantly see effort/heart mentioned analogously for being shut down by tight checking I would accept it, but I think what a lot of us see as "effort" is often just being outplayed.

Personally, i'm very wary of Noel. I love his media sessions. I think he did ok for the talent level with the team (not impressive). But I really really question his player management. he has too much patience for guys in the system and "working it out" (which he mentioned frequently in post games, "they just need to work it out"). To noel, success outside the system (nay, success with occasional forays outside the system) seemed far more punishable then complete failure within the system. Kanes line played best with a combo of Wellwood, Antro, and Burmi on it, yet he tried to "work it out" with jokinen, mittens, wright, and pretty much everyone else for 20+ games and it never did "get going".

Mix in the handling of Schiefele, the absolute refusal of resting pav's and some comments he had in the media(one interview in particular talking about being with the AHL team, milwaukee maybe, and saying how everyone had to work there way up through the lineup, everyone had to go to the ahl first, and how he liked that - it literal seemed like he was catching himself from saying "that's what we should be doing") it very much makes me question his ability to coach a team with this particular makeup.

Hopefully he proves me wrong, but i'm very concerned about how he will use our young players.
I agree on "lack of effort." It is far too often a storyline pieced together based on results. There were a couple of games where the Jets clearly controlled play for the 1st, but were down by a couple. People still shat on the effort in those games, not the goalie, not the bounces. Effort. Blaming a loss on lack of effort generally equals a lack of effort in analysis.

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05-07-2013, 01:14 PM
  #269
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For me, I saw a change in how Noel coached the team down the stretch. In an interview, just prior to the trade deadline during that 5 game losing skid I believe, he talked about how players, coaches and management wasn't happy with what was happening.

Now I took that as Chevy, or someone in management, had a chat with Noel and told him what was going on, wasn't acceptable. Soon after, he moved Buff to RW, and then benched him, for uninspired defensive play. But moves like that sent a message, imo, that had the troops playing more focused and hungry down the stretch until they lost to Washington. In that game, they were simply out-manned.

Noel has to have the team playing with that focus and desire all season. Chevy alluded to as much in his 'every game matters' rant. I think Noel gets a bit more time to see if he can consistently lead the group, but if they play inconsistent hockey to start the season, he's gonzo.

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05-08-2013, 09:33 AM
  #270
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For me, I saw a change in how Noel coached the team down the stretch. In an interview, just prior to the trade deadline during that 5 game losing skid I believe, he talked about how players, coaches and management wasn't happy with what was happening.

Now I took that as Chevy, or someone in management, had a chat with Noel and told him what was going on, wasn't acceptable. Soon after, he moved Buff to RW, and then benched him, for uninspired defensive play. But moves like that sent a message, imo, that had the troops playing more focused and hungry down the stretch until they lost to Washington. In that game, they were simply out-manned.

Noel has to have the team playing with that focus and desire all season. Chevy alluded to as much in his 'every game matters' rant. I think Noel gets a bit more time to see if he can consistently lead the group, but if they play inconsistent hockey to start the season, he's gonzo.
I agree that this is a likely scenario. As to your comment about benching Buff, this has to be done more often next year if this is an issue with anyone imo. There have been too many players given a pass for too long over the past two seasons. As someone mentioned above, McLean is using a "play hard or sit" approach that I would like to see Noel apply to veterans as well as young guys.

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05-08-2013, 09:53 AM
  #271
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I disagree completely. Considering that we played in the weakest division. Considering that Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal all made the playoffs. Also with respect to our line up, I don't see it as a being under talented, rather I see it as underachieving.

But honestly my criticism of Noel stems more from what I see the team doing than from actual results. I don't think Claude understands the schemes. How often have you had to do a double take to make sure we aren't short handed when we start running around in our own end for a full shift? This a team that continually collapses in the defensive zone, a team that doesn't apply forward pressure, a team that doesn't put put bodies in front of the net, a team that can't establish lines (other than Ladd Little Wheeler) so at some point you have to consider maybe its not just a case of the players not doing what they are told.
are you kidding me? ottawa/toronto/montreal >>>>>>jets

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05-08-2013, 10:13 AM
  #272
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are you kidding me? ottawa/toronto/montreal >>>>>>jets
Meh.... Ottawa/Montreal >>>> Jets.

Toronto = overdue for regression. Otherwise they're about the same as the Jets, mostly scoring from one line, maybe a little better in lines two and three (though Kane is better than anyone they have on those lines) but not as good through the D. Their goaltending may be better than Pavelec; it certainly got hotter at the right time and sustained it for long enough. But we beat the Bruins on occasion too.

Have to agree with Channelcat on at least one thing: over the past two season there have been dozens of occasions where I've counted our players to see if we were on the PK only to find we weren't but it just looked like it. I'm no great hockey mind, so maybe I just don't get it, but that collapsing D at full strength drives me batty.

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05-08-2013, 10:19 AM
  #273
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I think the general consensus is that Noel is a mediocre coach. The real question is, is there a better coach available to push us to another level.

Marc Crawford
Guy Boucher
Alain Vigneault (probable)
Lindy Ruff
Torts (probable if lose in first round)
Bylsma (probable if lose in first round)

I'm sure there is alot more names you can add to that list that are available.

To me, people like Burmi didn't get the message after 2 years and needs a new voice. I think same could be same for Buff and his conditioning.

We already passed on Carlyle last year and he all he did was take the leafs to the playoffs.

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05-08-2013, 12:04 PM
  #274
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If Torts Byslma or tipper are available noelle has to go. If Chevy doesn't make that call they both have to go.

Edit: Or AV


Last edited by Resurrection: 05-08-2013 at 12:37 PM.
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05-08-2013, 12:10 PM
  #275
surixon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resurrection View Post
If Torts Byslma or tipper are available noelle has to go. If Chevy doesn't make that call they both have to go.
I would be fine with Byslma, but want nothing to do with Torts, hes an over ratted coach and the last kind of personality I see this org bringing in.

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