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Market Research Survey to gauge potential interest in WHL franchise in Winnipeg

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Old
04-06-2013, 11:33 PM
  #51
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I'd be surprised if TSN finds a market for WHL here. Junior hockey mostly draws players family and friends in small numbers here, and the last time major junior did well here was the WCHL Jets pre 1972 before the WHA came to town.
Junior Jets, Clubs and Warriors had pathetic attendance.
Not saying the WHL isn't entertaining hockey, it's just that Winnipeg is a smaller market than the other WHL cities that have NHL teams and while it would probably draw better than previously, hard to imagine it being that profitable.

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04-07-2013, 12:01 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Back in the Bigs View Post
I'd be surprised if TSN finds a market for WHL here. Junior hockey mostly draws players family and friends in small numbers here, and the last time major junior did well here was the WCHL Jets pre 1972 before the WHA came to town.
Junior Jets, Clubs and Warriors had pathetic attendance.
Not saying the WHL isn't entertaining hockey, it's just that Winnipeg is a smaller market than the other WHL cities that have NHL teams and while it would probably draw better than previously, hard to imagine it being that profitable.
As someone priced out of Jets tickets, the lower cost of the WHL would be pretty attractive. I figure that there are more than a few people in a similar situation here in Winnipeg regarding the availability of hockey tickets.

Off topic, The name of the team would be the Falcons guaranteed.

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04-07-2013, 12:21 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by CanucksnWpg View Post
WHL is not pro hockey. It's major junior hockey. Big difference.
Hence why I said in a previous post that I use the term "loosely", in a more comparative way.

I know what the difference is.

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04-07-2013, 01:09 AM
  #54
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TNSE wants in on every facet of player development, it seems. Let's buy a fleet of MJHL teams and become COOs of Timbit's Hockey.
Timbits hockey at the MTS Centre.. I'd watch it.

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04-07-2013, 02:06 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Back in the Bigs View Post
I'd be surprised if TSN finds a market for WHL here. Junior hockey mostly draws players family and friends in small numbers here, and the last time major junior did well here was the WCHL Jets pre 1972 before the WHA came to town.
Junior Jets, Clubs and Warriors had pathetic attendance.
Not saying the WHL isn't entertaining hockey, it's just that Winnipeg is a smaller market than the other WHL cities that have NHL teams and while it would probably draw better than previously, hard to imagine it being that profitable.
Well, the NHL Jets 1.0 had trouble filling the old Winnipeg Arena with all its terrible sightlines, ladder-like stairs and lousy concessions.

I think hockey-as-entertainment is much hotter here now than it was in the old days. The city is just a sports town - the Moose were always near the top in AHL attendance, the Goldeyes outdraw everyone in whatever leagues they've played in, the Bombers have drawn well over the last decade no matter what the team is doing on the field.

I think there's an appetite for some cheap, entertaining hockey here. I've got Jets season tickets, but I can't take my whole family to a game (and even if I could, would I want to spend $500+ on a night out?). Anyone know what kind of draw the Wheat Kings were when they played at MTSC?

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04-07-2013, 04:37 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Back in the Bigs View Post
I'd be surprised if TSN finds a market for WHL here. Junior hockey mostly draws players family and friends in small numbers here, and the last time major junior did well here was the WCHL Jets pre 1972 before the WHA came to town.
Junior Jets, Clubs and Warriors had pathetic attendance.
Not saying the WHL isn't entertaining hockey, it's just that Winnipeg is a smaller market than the other WHL cities that have NHL teams and while it would probably draw better than previously, hard to imagine it being that profitable.
I'd be pretty surprised if they didn't find a market, at least at the start.

I think it is an open question as to whether or not a WHL team would be viable in the long term, particularly if it weren't consistently contending.

But in the short term, say first 5 years, I think it would be quite successful.

Since the previous major junior attempts in Winnipeg the entire sports entertainment landscape within the city has shifted radically.

I also think you are underrating the effect TSNE owning team would have upon its viability. Imagine the impact of having the team mentioned on TSN 1290 several times an hour. With TNSE behind the team it wouldn't be treated like a 3rd tier event or a mere afterthought. It would be the second biggest thing in Winnipeg during the winter.

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04-07-2013, 06:58 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
Did all ST holders get this survey?
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Originally Posted by ahplk View Post
Not I.
I'm surprised they would've only polled a sample. The ST base isn't huge so it wouldn't cost very much more to do the whole thing.

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Originally Posted by winterpeg View Post
I don't think so. I think it taps into a seperate market. As a university student, I'm good for maybe 1 Jets game a year, but I'd consider buying seasons for a WHL team. ($500-$600ish a seat, split 2 seats between 4 people, that's a LOT of hockey for $300 or less) I think the Moose and the Jets are HALF of the same market, the people in winnipeg that just want to see the best possible hockey, but the other half is totally segregated by price, and those who could afford it and now can't at this level.

Anyway, I don't speak for everyone, but I'd buy whatever jets merch I usually would, and see as many jets games (1 or 2, hah) as I usually would in a season. I'd just watch more hockey.
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Originally Posted by almostawake View Post
Personally I cannot see it affecting demand for the Jets. As winterpeg said, it targets a different market.

I think the real dollars and cents question for TNSE is: Would WHL hockey be more profitable than the concert/event dates they would be giving up?
There's definitely an opportunity at the lower end of the market. They could cross sell to the ST waiting list too - they could make the purchase of a small WHL package compulsory for people on the Jets ST waiting list instead of charging a fee.

They are of course thinking about cannibalism, which may not be a huge issue right now but could be during a recession. In their long term planning they have to account for the fact that recessions occur with a frequency of sixish years or so on average, and deep ones occur every twentyish to thirtyish years, although in both cases the frequency may increase going forward (the U.K. may be entering it's third recession since 2008).

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04-07-2013, 07:46 AM
  #58
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Whl is great hockey and I am sure it would thrive in Winnipeg for sure, I know I would bring my family to see games for sure.

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04-07-2013, 08:12 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Thomas L View Post
I'm surprised they would've only polled a sample. The ST base isn't huge so it wouldn't cost very much more to do the whole thing.
They were offering prizes, so that adds to the cost. The survey itself was carried out through surveymonkey, so it's not like there was any scaling cost associated with a larger sample.

I have a feeling they limited it to get a balanced sample and allow them to control for responder bias.

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Originally Posted by Thomas L View Post
There's definitely an opportunity at the lower end of the market. They could cross sell to the ST waiting list too - they could make the purchase of a small WHL package compulsory for people on the Jets ST waiting list instead of charging a fee.

They are of course thinking about cannibalism, which may not be a huge issue right now but could be during a recession. In their long term planning they have to account for the fact that recessions occur with a frequency of sixish years or so on average, and deep ones occur every twentyish to thirtyish years, although in both cases the frequency may increase going forward (the U.K. may be entering it's third recession since 2008).
The thing with cannibalization is it is strictly an issue of the market. My feeling is that the market for their current product is completely different than that of the product they are considering launching.

If that is the conclusion they arrive at then there is not problem.

Regarding recessions, I'm not certain they're really concerned about that with the Jets. The demand is simply too high. Of course, these things can chance quickly.

I think in the case of a recession they'd be less concerned with STHers shifting from NHL to WHL and much more concerned with WHL STHers simply walking away as the finances of their target market for that product (families) are much more constrained.

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04-07-2013, 08:35 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by almostawake View Post
The thing with cannibalization is it is strictly an issue of the market. My feeling is that the market for their current product is completely different than that of the product they are considering launching.

If that is the conclusion they arrive at then there is not problem.

Regarding recessions, I'm not certain they're really concerned about that with the Jets. The demand is simply too high. Of course, these things can chance quickly.

I think in the case of a recession they'd be less concerned with STHers shifting from NHL to WHL and much more concerned with WHL STHers simply walking away as the finances of their target market for that product (families) are much more constrained.
Why do you believe demand for NHL would remain strong in a recession? Whenever I'm in Winnipeg I'm more and more blown away at how levered people have become.

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04-07-2013, 09:31 AM
  #61
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Why do you believe demand for NHL would remain strong in a recession? Whenever I'm in Winnipeg I'm more and more blown away at how levered people have become.
A variety of reasons really.

-Recessions don't effect each household equally and the real demand probably exceeds 25,000 in my estimation. I think a recession could result in a lot of STs going unrenewed, but I would expect that a) there would still be enough of a reservoir of demand to soak them up, and b) I have a feeling what would actually happen is people would get creative and share more tickets.

-A large number of current season tickets holders are actually at a price significantly below what they can actually afford and desire.

-Most large corporate supporters have already weathered a pretty significant economic storm and a local crisis would be less likely to cause them to withdraw support en masse.

I mean, I live in one of the places hardest hit by the economic problems in Europe, and to be blunt, life goes on.

I agree with you, though, that Winnipeggers are far more leveraged than they used to be. I have noticed the same.

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04-07-2013, 09:53 AM
  #62
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No doubt TNSE would market the team much more than previous WHL attempts ever did, and while there are many folks priced out of NHL hockey or are unable to get tickets, hard to imagine in what numbers people would purchase WHL. Definitely two different animals.
I just think with the Jets here and all games on TV, it becomes somewhat all encompassing. Hard for most people to follow both and have any kind of regular life to boot. Then again I could be completely out to lunch on this, wouldn't be the first time

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04-07-2013, 09:54 AM
  #63
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The WHL would be a boost to the SHED as well.........40 plus more nights of the lights being on at the MTS centre is huge for the businesses in the area......anything more than 2500 in attendance creates a positive sales lift for the eateries and bars in the area.......more lift to hotel occupancy etc. "EVERY" little bit helps.

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04-07-2013, 09:56 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Back in the Bigs View Post
No doubt TNSE would market the team much more than previous WHL attempts ever did, and while there are many folks priced out of NHL hockey or are unable to get tickets, hard to imagine in what numbers people would purchase WHL. Definitely two different animals.
I just think with the Jets here and all games on TV, it becomes somewhat all encompassing. Hard for most people to follow both and have any kind of regular life to boot. Then again I could be completely out to lunch on this, wouldn't be the first time
I could see it being good family entertainment or just hockey fans on a budget....WHL draws well in Edmonton, Calgary, and Van so I don't see why we wouldn't experience something similar in Winnipeg.

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04-07-2013, 10:03 AM
  #65
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A variety of reasons really.

-Recessions don't effect each household equally and the real demand probably exceeds 25,000 in my estimation. I think a recession could result in a lot of STs going unrenewed, but I would expect that a) there would still be enough of a reservoir of demand to soak them up, and b) I have a feeling what would actually happen is people would get creative and share more tickets.

-A large number of current season tickets holders are actually at a price significantly below what they can actually afford and desire.

-Most large corporate supporters have already weathered a pretty significant economic storm and a local crisis would be less likely to cause them to withdraw support en masse.

I mean, I live in one of the places hardest hit by the economic problems in Europe, and to be blunt, life goes on.

I agree with you, though, that Winnipeggers are far more leveraged than they used to be. I have noticed the same.
Right, well where I was going is that if you have a lot of household delevering going on you could see demand shift to substitute goods like the WHL. I dunno, these things could play out so many ways.

In Europe I think people have just gotten numb to the issues, Canada's been booming for the past several years riding the Carney easy money wave. Honestly though they'll probably just keep printing money... with Japan easing and Carney taking over the Bank of England you'd think the Bank of Canada will follow suit. Plus, they'll have a hell of a time raising rates when half the country has 5 year mortgages on real estate they can barely afford.

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04-07-2013, 10:26 AM
  #66
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Right, well where I was going is that if you have a lot of household delevering going on you could see demand shift to substitute goods like the WHL. I dunno, these things could play out so many ways.

In Europe I think people have just gotten numb to the issues, Canada's been booming for the past several years riding the Carney easy money wave. Honestly though they'll probably just keep printing money... with Japan easing and Carney taking over the Bank of England you'd think the Bank of Canada will follow suit. Plus, they'll have a hell of a time raising rates when half the country has 5 year mortgages on real estate they can barely afford.
are you being realistic here? half the country? as far as I knew, Canada didn't engage in the sub-prime mortgage market. there are people who are buying homes that aren't as cheap as they used to be. but I think it's a stretch to say they can't afford their homes. the real issue is the CC debt because they can't contain their 'consumerism.' Not everyone needs the latest iPhone with an unlimited data plan!

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04-07-2013, 10:37 AM
  #67
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While in theory I like the idea of a WHL team, in practice I don't know how much I would be able to support them. I already commit more time than I should following the Jets, I would have little capacity to be a big supporter of Junior hockey. Possible exceptions would be if the team had a top Jet prospect or were on a Memorial cup run. That being said I could see a market for them. As a teenager and young adult I went to a lot of WHL and other Junior games.

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04-07-2013, 10:48 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
The WHL would be a boost to the SHED as well.........40 plus more nights of the lights being on at the MTS centre is huge for the businesses in the area......anything more than 2500 in attendance creates a positive sales lift for the eateries and bars in the area.......more lift to hotel occupancy etc. "EVERY" little bit helps.
I'm all for it. My only concern is would these extra nights take away from potential concert venues coming to the city? The MTSC is really the only place year-round where big names can come and perform. I just wouldn't want to see the city suffer by losing out on concerts. As long as that isn't compromised, it's all good.

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04-07-2013, 12:00 PM
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Maybe a silly question, but would a successful WHL team mean a higher NHL payroll? I mean, say the WHL makes $1M in a season, would they look at profits as a whole and apply it to the NHL team?

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04-07-2013, 12:24 PM
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I'm all for it. My only concern is would these extra nights take away from potential concert venues coming to the city? The MTSC is really the only place year-round where big names can come and perform. I just wouldn't want to see the city suffer by losing out on concerts. As long as that isn't compromised, it's all good.
I was thinking the same thing, but if you look at the MTSC calendar I think there's room for 6 or 7 home games each month. February was a pretty busy month at MTS and you could drop in the Wheat Kings 7 home games and only have to change 3 of the dates. March would work too if you just move Brandon's home schedule one week later (instead of March 8, 9, 13 and 16, make it March 15, 16, 20 and 23 and it fits right in...of course that runs past the end of the WHL season, but still - you could juggle things around).

http://www.mtscentre.ca/events/calendar
http://www.wheatkings.com/page/2012-2013-schedule

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04-07-2013, 12:52 PM
  #71
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As of right now, I would be very interested in purchasing WHL season tickets. I sill still attend 2-4 Jets games a year, but for the price I pay for those 2-4 games, I could be a season ticket holder in junior.

My only concern with the Dub at MTSC is that while it is indeed family entertainment, families at times bristle at the thought of paying for parking. While the cost of parking is not monumental, for those who would be on a tight budget (and I do believer there would be many budget buyers for Dub tickets), having to pay parking adds a sizable percentage to ticket cost. Just a thought.

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04-07-2013, 12:56 PM
  #72
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As of right now, I would be very interested in purchasing WHL season tickets. I sill still attend 2-4 Jets games a year, but for the price I pay for those 2-4 games, I could be a season ticket holder in junior.

My only concern with the Dub at MTSC is that while it is indeed family entertainment, families at times bristle at the thought of paying for parking. While the cost of parking is not monumental, for those who would be on a tight budget (and I do believer there would be many budget buyers for Dub tickets), having to pay parking adds a sizable percentage to ticket cost. Just a thought.
Fair amount of free parking to be found around MTSC.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, aren't paid parking spots usually 2-3x more for Jets games? Considering there won't be nearly as many people attending WHL games, they would probably just charge the regular rates.

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04-07-2013, 04:22 PM
  #73
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Right, well where I was going is that if you have a lot of household delevering going on you could see demand shift to substitute goods like the WHL. I dunno, these things could play out so many ways.
Regarding this point, I just don't see it to be honest. I am a STH. I have many friends that are STHs and I know many more on top of that. I think that, on the whole, Jets STHs are in a decent place financially. Obviously some would be hit if there was a serious shock, but I don't think for the kinds of people that are STHs the WHL would be a reasonable alternative. For most, if they had to give up their season tickets it would be because their situation is dire. They wouldn't be looking for a cut rate option, they'd just be getting out all together.

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In Europe I think people have just gotten numb to the issues, Canada's been booming for the past several years riding the Carney easy money wave. Honestly though they'll probably just keep printing money... with Japan easing and Carney taking over the Bank of England you'd think the Bank of Canada will follow suit. Plus, they'll have a hell of a time raising rates when half the country has 5 year mortgages on real estate they can barely afford.
Italian were born numb as near as I can tell

Overall I disagree with your assessment of Canada's situation though. Yes, between mortgages and CC's Canadians are more leveraged than they have been before, but the banks, by and large, are not. While a bubble has clearly formed in the Canadian housing market, I don't think it is nearly large enough, in terms of consumer leverage or bank leverage, to result in a major economic crisis when it pops.

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04-07-2013, 04:52 PM
  #74
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I would be interested in catching a game or two, but even when I'm in Calgary, I have yet to see a hitmen game

hopefully there is a market that can support a WHL team, because it would be nice that's for sure

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04-07-2013, 05:28 PM
  #75
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Edm, Cal and Van also had WHL teams leave before the current successful franchises. It will do well because TNSE can make it into an event. For a young kids it won't be a step up from the MJHL, it will be a step down from the Jets. Kids can judge the amount of people and production value a lot better than the level of play.

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