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The OT Non-Ski Resort: Return to Innocence Edition

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Old
04-18-2013, 04:10 AM
  #951
PG Canuck
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Originally Posted by Elusive Derposaurus View Post
I would have to agree on this part, I don't want him to suffer at all, but we need to find out what's going on first. Me and my dad would be on board, as much as it would be awful, but I know my sister would have a very hard time coming around. We all love him but it would be for the best
I would give it a bit of time before coming to the conclusion putting it down is the best option. Could be just a temporary thing (hopefully it is), and who knows what could happen in a week or two from now. Some family of mine had two Labs that were old and could barely get by on a daily basis without feeling pain - were always taking medication as well. They just recently put the last dog of the two down because it was just suffering. It's for the best though.

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04-18-2013, 04:39 AM
  #952
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I find it strange that putting down dogs is universally accepted as being the humane thing to do, but for people there are huge debates on euthanasia.

If a life in pain is better than no life at all, then putting down a dog is no kindness.

The only way I can rationalize it is that a dog does not have the complexity to live through the pain, while a human still has more to live for regardless of the pain.

Of course, this is just society arbitrarily deciding on behalf of the dog/person what should happen, regardless of what they want. There's no way to really know if a dog wants to end its life if its in pain, and even if a person is depressed and suicidal, no one would advise that person to actually just put an end to it all.

Just random thoughts that happen at 4:30 in the morning EST.

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04-18-2013, 05:12 AM
  #953
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To be honest, I have no idea where I stand on euthanasia nor abortions. I have never really thought about, therefore I'm on the fence about both.

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04-18-2013, 05:21 AM
  #954
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Originally Posted by Xavier Ouellet View Post
To be honest, I have no idea where I stand on euthanasia nor abortions. I have never really thought about, therefore I'm on the fence about both.
I'm still undecided on euthanasia, although I'm vehemently anti-abortion.

What gives someone the right to deny another's right to life for the sake of convenience? That child would have grown up, gone on to have hopes and dreams, etc.

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04-18-2013, 05:49 AM
  #955
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'm still undecided on euthanasia, although I'm vehemently anti-abortion.

What gives someone the right to deny another's right to life for the sake of convenience? That child would have grown up, gone on to have hopes and dreams, etc.
A child can also take away the hopes and dreams of the parent, on the other hand. An argument could be made whether or not the child is technically "alive" inside the wound (not to be taken literally).

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04-18-2013, 05:51 AM
  #956
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Posting pics of my dog here, very tired but need to stay up in case something happens. He's all I can think about tonight, my only pet that I've ever really had, a huge part of my life. He even saved my life once. I hope he pulls through this.
I've never really had to deal with loss. The only major losses I've had is the death of one of my grandpas and my mom moving away, that's been it.






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Old
04-18-2013, 05:55 AM
  #957
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I find it strange that putting down dogs is universally accepted as being the humane thing to do, but for people there are huge debates on euthanasia.

If a life in pain is better than no life at all, then putting down a dog is no kindness.

The only way I can rationalize it is that a dog does not have the complexity to live through the pain, while a human still has more to live for regardless of the pain.

Of course, this is just society arbitrarily deciding on behalf of the dog/person what should happen, regardless of what they want. There's no way to really know if a dog wants to end its life if its in pain, and even if a person is depressed and suicidal, no one would advise that person to actually just put an end to it all.

Just random thoughts that happen at 4:30 in the morning EST.
In my world view, I believe humans have souls and dogs do not, just my opinion, if it helps....

Also think that most of the world was based on the same principles until Darwin, that is why it is "universally accepted".

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04-18-2013, 05:58 AM
  #958
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Originally Posted by Xavier Ouellet View Post
A child can also take away the hopes and dreams of the parent, on the other hand. An argument could be made whether or not the child is technically "alive" inside the wound (not to be taken literally).
Adoption?
orrrrrrrrrrrr condom...

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04-18-2013, 05:58 AM
  #959
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On the current discussion of euthanasia and abortion, I feel it is entirely debatable and a hard topic to discuss.

Putting aside religious views and such, I feel it is terrible for abortion to occur and take away a childs life, but on the other hand it is not my choice to make for the parents. It is their freedoms versus my opinion. As well, there are circumstances where it could be viewed as acceptable, such as in the case of the r- word.


Euthanasia is also hard, but easier to discuss, as it is the persons choice of their own life. In a peaceful way, it can be much less painful and sorrowful than other methods of suicide that the person may want. As hard as it is to allow a person to do this, it should be allowed based on their own views and opinions and we should not make choices for them.

My stances anyways

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04-18-2013, 06:00 AM
  #960
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Originally Posted by Xavier Ouellet View Post
A child can also take away the hopes and dreams of the parent, on the other hand. An argument could be made whether or not the child is technically "alive" inside the wound (not to be taken literally).
If a child is that much of a burden to the parent, then they should have thought of that before becoming pregnant. Even then, there is still adoption as a viable way out.

There's no excuse to simply cut of the child's life simply because one can't handle being a parent. Can a parent be excused for killing their child if they are no longer able to care for them properly? Of course not.

If they can't take care of the child, then it's their responsibility to find a proper place for him/her. Or better yet, not make the mistake in the first place.

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04-18-2013, 06:02 AM
  #961
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Originally Posted by Xavier Ouellet View Post
An argument could be made whether or not the child is technically "alive" inside the wound (not to be taken literally).
The argument you're looking for is whether or not a fetus is considered a 'person', or a member of the moral community. This is the topic of one of the most seminal papers on the topic: "On the Moral and Legal Status of Abortion" by Mary Warren. Warren argues that because a fetus doesn't possess any of the characteristics we use to grant a being personhood, they should not be granted the same right to life. Therefore, a woman's right to her own body is the one used to determine the legality of abortions, as the fetus has no rights to consider.

Link to paper:
http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafav...n_article.html

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04-18-2013, 06:11 AM
  #962
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Like I said I'm on the fence. You guys are all bringing up valid arguments I'm just bring up the other side as well.

And accidents happen, whether you're using the pill, the condom or any other device.

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04-18-2013, 06:17 AM
  #963
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Originally Posted by Elusive Derposaurus View Post
On the current discussion of euthanasia and abortion, I feel it is entirely debatable and a hard topic to discuss.

Putting aside religious views and such, I feel it is terrible for abortion to occur and take away a childs life, but on the other hand it is not my choice to make for the parents. It is their freedoms versus my opinion. As well, there are circumstances where it could be viewed as acceptable, such as in the case of the r- word.


Euthanasia is also hard, but easier to discuss, as it is the persons choice of their own life. In a peaceful way, it can be much less painful and sorrowful than other methods of suicide that the person may want. As hard as it is to allow a person to do this, it should be allowed based on their own views and opinions and we should not make choices for them.

My stances anyways
I agree with both of your stances for the most part. For what it's worth, the euthanasia debate *seems* to be headed towards that conclusion (IMO at least), with the precedent set down in the Gloria Taylor case by the BC Supreme Court. The basis of that ruling was that suicide is not illegal, and any laws against assisted suicide "denies physically disabled people like Taylor the same rights as able-bodied people who can take their own lives". link

This was the same argument used by Sue Rodriguez in the highly publicized case in the 90's, although her case was shot down by the Federal government.

Our Federal government is set to make a ruling on this case in June, and although nothing would shock me, I'd be surprised if this doesn't further the cause to legalize assisted suicide. Times are a'changing

As an aside, it's interesting to note that in North America the only provinces/territories/states to rule in favour or legalize assisted suicide are BC, Washington, Oregon and Montana. Cascadia leading the charge.

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04-18-2013, 06:20 AM
  #964
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
The argument you're looking for is whether or not a fetus is considered a 'person', or a member of the moral community. This is the topic of one of the most seminal papers on the topic: "On the Moral and Legal Status of Abortion" by Mary Warren. Warren argues that because a fetus doesn't possess any of the characteristics we use to grant a being personhood, they should not be granted the same right to life. Therefore, a woman's right to her own body is the one used to determine the legality of abortions, as the fetus has no rights to consider.

Link to paper:
http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafav...n_article.html
From what I gather, her logic applies only in a case where the woman's health is at risk due to the pregnancy. I don't think anyone would place the fetus' health over the mother's in such a case.

But if it's simply a case of "not worth the trouble", then denying the potential of the fetus to become a conscious human is morally unethical, as there are institutions, foster parents, etc that can take care of the child instead of her.

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04-18-2013, 06:22 AM
  #965
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Originally Posted by Elusive Derposaurus View Post
Posting pics of my dog here, very tired but need to stay up in case something happens. He's all I can think about tonight, my only pet that I've ever really had, a huge part of my life. He even saved my life once. I hope he pulls through this.
I've never really had to deal with loss. The only major losses I've had is the death of one of my grandpas and my mom moving away, that's been it.





Dog looks awesome. Seems like a warrior! Which you the best, buddy.

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04-18-2013, 06:35 AM
  #966
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
From what I gather, her logic applies only in a case where the woman's health is at risk due to the pregnancy. I don't think anyone would place the fetus' health over the mother's in such a case.

But if it's simply a case of "not worth the trouble", then denying the potential of the fetus to become a conscious human is morally unethical, as there are institutions, foster parents, etc that can take care of the child instead of her.
Her logic applies to any situation for the woman, as Warren believes the fetus has no rights, so the rights of the woman trump the falsely supposed right to life of the fetus. According to Warren's argument the woman could terminate her pregnancy a week before the baby is due because she wants to fly to Mexico and isn't able to while pregnant.

Obviously this flies against what most of our our personal ethics believe in, but that's the trouble with the abortion debate; every argument that's ever been made is flawed in some sense. Heck, the most prominent pro-life argument ever presented (IMO at least) is riddled with holes. Link below, if you're interested. Based on your posts I think you might sympathize with his position.

Don Marquis

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Old
04-18-2013, 06:36 AM
  #967
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Anyways, yeah, best of luck with your dog. Hope things turn out alright.

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04-18-2013, 06:43 AM
  #968
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Originally Posted by Elusive Derposaurus View Post
Posting pics of my dog here, very tired but need to stay up in case something happens. He's all I can think about tonight, my only pet that I've ever really had, a huge part of my life. He even saved my life once. I hope he pulls through this.
I've never really had to deal with loss. The only major losses I've had is the death of one of my grandpas and my mom moving away, that's been it.
Yeah, your dog looks awesome. Really sorry to hear he's struggling at the moment. We had to put down my family dog a couple of summers ago and it was obviously really tough. However if they're in pain like she was it's the right thing to do, and you can feel it inside after it's done.

On the bright side, so long as you've got the memories of him he's still alive somewhere. But let's hope it doesn't come to that for another 5+ years.

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04-18-2013, 06:46 AM
  #969
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It took my mutt about a day to get most of her balance back and about 2 weeks to get 90%. She still runs about like she's a pup until she remembers she's old and tired. She's not in pain, she has the odd trip when she's not paying attention but nothing serious.

If it is the same thing give a bit of time. I hope your little buddy can get back to good health.

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04-18-2013, 07:07 AM
  #970
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Her logic applies to any situation for the woman, as Warren believes the fetus has no rights, so the rights of the woman trump the falsely supposed right to life of the fetus. According to Warren's argument the woman could terminate her pregnancy a week before the baby is due because she wants to fly to Mexico and isn't able to while pregnant.
I understand that she believes that to be true, but the only rationale she gives is through the example of the space man not having to give up his life so that other people can be created, and then arbitrarily expands that to include any inconvenience whatsoever, but does not explain why.


Quote:
Obviously this flies against what most of our our personal ethics believe in, but that's the trouble with the abortion debate; every argument that's ever been made is flawed in some sense. Heck, the most prominent pro-life argument ever presented (IMO at least) is riddled with holes. Link below, if you're interested. Based on your posts I think you might sympathize with his position.

Don Marquis
I do agree that the loss of future experiences and such are what makes killing wrong, and that fetuses have the same potential for life, so their termination is also immoral.

Anyways, maybe the topic should move on to something lighter. Thanks for the interesting reads.

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04-18-2013, 10:02 AM
  #971
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04-18-2013, 10:59 AM
  #972
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Wow, you guys got into some heavy stuff last night.

Tonights midnight debate... "Religion; which is the right one?"

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04-18-2013, 11:00 AM
  #973
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Off to Toronto!
why are you going to Toronto?


also for this page, pro assisted suicide and pro abortion. Most of the arguments have already been listed. Things did get real though here

don't often see this heavy of debate

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04-18-2013, 11:32 AM
  #974
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If a child is that much of a burden to the parent, then they should have thought of that before becoming pregnant. Even then, there is still adoption as a viable way out.

There's no excuse to simply cut of the child's life simply because one can't handle being a parent. Can a parent be excused for killing their child if they are no longer able to care for them properly? Of course not.

If they can't take care of the child, then it's their responsibility to find a proper place for him/her. Or better yet, not make the mistake in the first place.
It's really not that simple. No one wants to have an abortion, but it's often the best choice in a bad situation. Forcing a woman to be pregnant for 9 months if she does not want to have a child and never intended to get pregnant is wrong. Furthermore, there's no medical basis to imply that a fetus is a human being, especially in the early stages. And the natural extension of the "it could become a child" argument is that a woman should be forced to get pregnant every month, since the egg she's developed "could become a child".

Sorry to get a bit rant-y about this, but it's a topic that can get me worked up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
The argument you're looking for is whether or not a fetus is considered a 'person', or a member of the moral community. This is the topic of one of the most seminal papers on the topic: "On the Moral and Legal Status of Abortion" by Mary Warren. Warren argues that because a fetus doesn't possess any of the characteristics we use to grant a being personhood, they should not be granted the same right to life. Therefore, a woman's right to her own body is the one used to determine the legality of abortions, as the fetus has no rights to consider.

Link to paper:
http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafav...n_article.html
Is that the paper with the "famous violinist" thought experiment? I remember reading that in undergrad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elusive Derposaurus View Post
Best of luck with your dog man. I've never had any of my animals die, but my girlfriend's family had to put down their 10 year old golden lab a few weeks ago because of a throat tumour. It's really hard.

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04-18-2013, 11:41 AM
  #975
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Hope all is going well, Elusive Derpasaurus.

I have three dogs. My oldest (6 years, now, but this was a year ago) blew out both the ACLs in her hind legs last year. Could barely walk and needed some very expensive surgery to fix the damage.

I was taken aback by the people - friends and family alike - that just advocated putting her down. The thought had never crossed my mind; she was completely healthy apart from the hind legs. Worst case, I would have fashioned a crude little cart for her to wheel herself around in. But I ended up paying for the surgeries.

Every now and again, someone still grumbles to me about it - but she's a member of my family and it was my choice.

Not really a point to it all, other than to say that dogs (and any pets we bring home) are part of the family. I hope your dog pulls through.

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