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Old
04-12-2013, 09:12 PM
  #126
Pierce Hawthorne
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Next season, that defense would get roasted defensively - Erik Johnson, an aging Hejda, and 4 defensemen playing essentially their first full NHL season? Varlamov would need therapy.

If we're talking 3-4 or so years down the road, OK, but Hejda would likely need to be replaced.

Does anyone really realistically see Siemens on the Avs next season?
I don't think that Defense would be worse then this years though. Especially if Elliott and Barrie build on there play from this year.

Barrie has looked like and at this point is IMO a Top 4 Dman this year.

Elliott's last game was his best ever as an Av IMO, keep building on last game for him and it wont be long before he is a borderline Top 4 guy for us as well.

As for Siemens, he definitely has a shot at it with how weak our Left side is. I don't think he will make it although he'll get a long look in camp. But I also think a full year in the AHL would do him extremely good.


That defense would certainly be young, probably youngest in the league for sure. I would say replace Wilson with Siemens and unless we sign a guy like Scuderi or Streit in the summer, its what we will probably have to start the year. Assuming we draft Jones.

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04-12-2013, 09:23 PM
  #127
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Uh... Are you talking academically? Because history shows that actually Elliott and Barrie should have even more potential offensively than Kirk. Especially Elliott...

Development differences make sense... because of age, patience, maturity, and what not. But stating that Kirk is smarter or has more vision hockey wise is putting the cart before the horse in predicting what Barrie and Elliott are capable of IMO.

Elliott has the frame to be a 6 foot plus offensive defender, especially if he can beef up a bit. Both Barrie and Elliott are younger and are being judged at younger ages with less time to mature. Which takes some patience IMO.
Shattenkirk is tearing it up and has very good hockey IQ. Barrie and Elliott are good for their age but expecting them to match and surpass Shattenkirk's output at any point in their careers is an unjustifiable leap in the dark at this point. For now, it would seem that Shattenkirk is the smarter defender and and one of the smartest in the league, and it's a guess as to whether Elliott or Barrie will match that level. It's unlikely.

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04-12-2013, 09:29 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Avsboy View Post
Shattenkirk is tearing it up and has very good hockey IQ. Barrie and Elliott are good for their age but expecting them to match and surpass Shattenkirk's output at any point in their careers is an unjustifiable leap in the dark at this point. For now, it would seem that Shattenkirk is the smarter defender and and one of the smartest in the league, and it's a guess as to whether Elliott or Barrie will match that level. It's unlikely.
Who knows about Barrie and Elliott replacing Shatty, but I'm really hoping Siemens is the consolation prize from the deal.

Not that I wouldn't do it again. I think the value we got for the both of them was good.

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04-12-2013, 09:44 PM
  #129
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Who knows about Barrie and Elliott replacing Shatty, but I'm really hoping Siemens is the consolation prize from the deal.

Not that I wouldn't do it again. I think the value we got for the both of them was good.
I'm happy with the trade. I think EJ has and will continue to anchor the backend (moreso than Shattenkirk would have been able to) and Siemens is solid defensively in the WHL.

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04-12-2013, 10:04 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Avsboy View Post
I'm happy with the trade. I think EJ has and will continue to anchor the backend (moreso than Shattenkirk would have been able to) and Siemens is solid defensively in the WHL.
Might take another year or two to see Siemens in an NHL role, and we'll hear to no end how much of a bust he is and he'll be in trade proposals constantly. It should still be worth it.

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04-12-2013, 10:52 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Avsboy View Post
Shattenkirk is tearing it up and has very good hockey IQ. Barrie and Elliott are good for their age but expecting them to match and surpass Shattenkirk's output at any point in their careers is an unjustifiable leap in the dark at this point. For now, it would seem that Shattenkirk is the smarter defender and and one of the smartest in the league, and it's a guess as to whether Elliott or Barrie will match that level. It's unlikely.
Shattenkirk is nice but the trade was well worth it. EJ is the type of defender we needed badly. only problem is we won't give him a legit pairing partner. Barrie and Elliot can play the role Shattenkirk was playing before he was dealt, without that trade we likely don't have Varly and we definitely don't have Siemens.

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Old
04-13-2013, 02:12 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
Uh... Are you talking academically? Because history shows that actually Elliott and Barrie should have even more potential offensively than Kirk. Especially Elliott...

Development differences make sense... because of age, patience, maturity, and what not. But stating that Kirk is smarter or has more vision hockey wise is putting the cart before the horse in predicting what Barrie and Elliott are capable of IMO.

Elliott has the frame to be a 6 foot plus offensive defender, especially if he can beef up a bit. Both Barrie and Elliott are younger and are being judged at younger ages with less time to mature. Which takes some patience IMO.
Are you serious right now? Why would I be talking about academically.

When I talk about Shattenkirk being a smart player, I'm talking about how from day 1 on this team he was finding seams and connecting on passes to create offense from nothing. I have seen nothing from Elliott or Barrie at any time that shows that type of awareness of how plays are developing on either end of the ice. It's a rare quality.

They're no longer younger than Shatty was when he broke into the league and they actually have considerably more pro experience.

I'm not saying Elliott and Barrie won't be good players, I just don't think they have the same tools Shattenkirk does.

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04-13-2013, 04:07 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
Are you serious right now? Why would I be talking about academically.

When I talk about Shattenkirk being a smart player, I'm talking about how from day 1 on this team he was finding seams and connecting on passes to create offense from nothing. I have seen nothing from Elliott or Barrie at any time that shows that type of awareness of how plays are developing on either end of the ice. It's a rare quality.

They're no longer younger than Shatty was when he broke into the league and they actually have considerably more pro experience.

I'm not saying Elliott and Barrie won't be good players, I just don't think they have the same tools Shattenkirk does.
Barrie + Elliot are more in the mold of Boyle (Barrie moreso). Shatty is a better version of Liles.

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04-13-2013, 04:18 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
By the end of next season or the beginning of the 14-15 I was trying to allure to with that. I could see Hejda sticking around long enough to be a part of that defense at least once, otherwise I said to throw in Wilson.
Indeed you did. Sorry, I missed that part.

That lineup has potential for sure, and I wouldn't mind seeing it in there in a few years. My only point to the contrary is that it would likely get lit up for awhile early on.

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04-13-2013, 04:20 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by PAZ View Post
Barrie + Elliot are more in the mold of Boyle (Barrie moreso).
Oy. Like clay caricatures?

I wonder whether the Avs will keep both guys.

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04-13-2013, 04:21 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by CalderKing21 View Post
Shattenkirk is nice but the trade was well worth it. EJ is the type of defender we needed badly.
And now Shattenkirk is the type of player the Avs need badly. They can't generate offense from the blue line all season.

One of these days, I'd really like to see an Avs trade where they meaningfully beef up one area of their team without decimating/damaging another.

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04-13-2013, 04:24 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Pierce Hawthorne View Post
I don't think that Defense would be worse then this years though. Especially if Elliott and Barrie build on there play from this year.

You may be right. It's hard to imagine one worse than this year's defense, but I suppose it's possible.

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Originally Posted by Pierce Hawthorne View Post
Barrie has looked like and at this point is IMO a Top 4 Dman this year.

I'm encouraged, but holding off my enthusiasm until he does it consistently for awhile. Like a whole season.

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Originally Posted by Pierce Hawthorne View Post
Elliott's last game was his best ever as an Av IMO, keep building on last game for him and it wont be long before he is a borderline Top 4 guy for us as well.

After ONE game? Again, consistency please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierce Hawthorne View Post
As for Siemens, he definitely has a shot at it with how weak our Left side is.
I was more referring to him being able to leapfrog the several stupid defensive contracts already out there on the roster.

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04-13-2013, 01:43 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
And now Shattenkirk is the type of player the Avs need badly. They can't generate offense from the blue line all season.

One of these days, I'd really like to see an Avs trade where they meaningfully beef up one area of their team without decimating/damaging another.
we don't truly need offense from the D corps. we need really good D and for them to scuttle the number of shots Varly and others get peppered with. that's what we needed when **** was traded and that's still what we need. EJ helps but he can only do so much.

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Old
04-13-2013, 01:56 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by CalderKing21 View Post
we don't truly need offense from the D corps. we need really good D and for them to scuttle the number of shots Varly and others get peppered with. that's what we needed when **** was traded and that's still what we need. EJ helps but he can only do so much.
He does? I like EJ too and yes his def. game is pretty good but for what we paid for I was hoping for a WHOLE lot more offense from him.

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04-14-2013, 12:15 AM
  #140
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Happy to see Elliott seems to turn it around defensively. Offense will come just like it did with Barrie.

Talking about Barrie since his fifth game this season which is when he started to produce offensively, he has now 11 pts in 22 games on pace for 41 pts in a full season. He has also elevated his defensive game as well.

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04-14-2013, 01:19 AM
  #141
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He does? I like EJ too and yes his def. game is pretty good but for what we paid for I was hoping for a WHOLE lot more offense from him.
i want defense, the forwards are where the offense should come from.
EJ has never really been a scorer, that is why he's been considered a bust. his offense will likely go up when we find him a legit partner but he's never going to be a 50 pt guy.

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04-14-2013, 12:17 PM
  #142
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we don't truly need offense from the D corps.
Of course they do.

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04-14-2013, 02:00 PM
  #143
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Of course they do.
no we don't. it'd be a very nice addition but our D corps are horrendous and we need them to play solid D first and foremost.
it doesn't matter if we have two 50+ pt D men if we continue to play the piss poor D we currently do.
that will just mean a ton of 6-5 games and likely losses.

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04-14-2013, 03:06 PM
  #144
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we don't truly need offense from the D corps.
Are there successful teams in the modern NHL that don't have this?

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04-14-2013, 03:26 PM
  #145
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We definitely need more offense from our defensemen. More goals and points would be nice but just being able to move the puck up the ice and help the forwards is something we badly need.

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04-14-2013, 04:07 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Avsboy View Post
Shattenkirk is tearing it up and has very good hockey IQ. Barrie and Elliott are good for their age but expecting them to match and surpass Shattenkirk's output at any point in their careers is an unjustifiable leap in the dark at this point. For now, it would seem that Shattenkirk is the smarter defender and and one of the smartest in the league, and it's a guess as to whether Elliott or Barrie will match that level. It's unlikely.
Tearing it up? Shatty benefited from a red hot St Louis team that took advantage of rusty teams then cooled off big time later on. He's been quiet a lot lately (3 points in almost 20 games now) and on pace for just over 40 points over an 82 game season. You don't think Barrie & Elliott can produce at least 40 at the NHL level?

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04-14-2013, 04:14 PM
  #147
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More offense from the defenders means more offense from the forwards and vice versa. Avs need more offense period.

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04-14-2013, 04:45 PM
  #148
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More offense from the defenders means more offense from the forwards and vice versa. Avs need more offense period.
But they also need to not get scored on while having a bunch of pylons standing around watching. We would be a better team with 3 Adam Footes paired with 3 Darian Hatchers. That D wouldn't be leading the offense but they would be stopping the team from getting so many great scoring opportunities against. But again, they wouldn't be great at getting the puck moving up and out.

The AVs have gone from one extreme to another without finding a proper balance. They were too small and easy to push around in their own end. They over compensated. That's why they risked so much to get Johnson...they were trying to get more of the high-end two-way play. Time will tell, but it's not looking great. Now Johnson could be a stud non-physical dman who when paired with a stud offensive guy could change the dynamics considerably but again...they've got to get the right guy for him. I'm done thinking Johnson is the offensive answer to the team, however, pair him with Elliott/Barrie/Jones (if we can be had) and see what happens.

This version of the NHL requires two-way guys I think. You need to be physical, mobile and responsive in your own end and get the puck moving out. Folks talk about getting that one partner for EJ and everything falling into place because it pushes everyone down a slot. I'm not convinced that works. Each D pairing you have has to be able to not only stop the forwards they are playing against but also be able to move the puck up and out. Sure getting a top pairing guy helps a ton but we've still got a lot of one-way contracts that we have to work around. Next season is going to be tough unless the AVs actually buy out a contract or two or find a team willing to take a trade for a depth defender during the summer. I simply don't see them burying a contract in the AHL and I'm not sure the waiver would help with what we have to put on it.

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04-14-2013, 05:12 PM
  #149
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Tearing it up? Shatty benefited from a red hot St Louis team that took advantage of rusty teams then cooled off big time later on. He's been quiet a lot lately (3 points in almost 20 games now) and on pace for just over 40 points over an 82 game season. You don't think Barrie & Elliott can produce at least 40 at the NHL level?
I can attest to this because I traded for Kirk in my fantasy league just as he cooled off, and he hasn't produced anywhere close since. This is spot on...

Barrie 11 points in his last 23, and Kirk has 7 points in his last 23 games.

Kirk has two points in 8 games played in April, Barrie has 3 points in the 8 games played in April.

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04-14-2013, 07:26 PM
  #150
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no we don't.
Yes, they do.

Asserting that offense from the blueline isn't necessary because defense from the blueline is substandard, is simply wrong. The Avs' blueline just happens to have the unfortunate distinction to be substandard at both. They can't win if both don't get fixed, to some more or lesser extent.

For all of the *****ing about Colorado's porous defense (and the *****ing is deserved), I'd like to point out that Colorado also is in the Bottom 3 or 4 in the NHL in goals scored. Given their forward talent, I'd put forth the question: Why?

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Are there successful teams in the modern NHL that don't have this?
I don't believe so, no.

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