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Old
04-21-2013, 01:10 AM
  #726
aandbreatheme
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I really, really hate that twitter feed.

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04-21-2013, 01:37 AM
  #727
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What's up with those Habs?

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04-21-2013, 01:42 AM
  #728
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What's up with those Habs?
Their GAA

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04-21-2013, 01:44 AM
  #729
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Their GAA
Can't blame their goaltending for everything.

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04-21-2013, 01:49 AM
  #730
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Can't blame their goaltending for everything.
Markov looks bad without Emelin and Subban-Gorges haven't been able to handle the extra load. They're playing really soft in their own end and constantly playing from behind. The goaltending has been very poor too.

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Old
04-21-2013, 01:55 AM
  #731
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Can't blame their goaltending for everything.
It's a major reason though.

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04-21-2013, 02:17 AM
  #732
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Habs are just getting some terrible goaltending right now, similar to a stretch the Canucks went through earlier this season.

The thing that I don't understand is how many people proclaim Price clearly the "best" goaltender in the league, based solely on how technically strong he is. Year to year he bounces from being an elite ES goaltender (930-ish) to being outright average (915-920, like this season). It's mystifying. It's like calling a forward the best player in the NHL because he skates the fastest and has a great shot, even if he only averaged 55 points a season -- nobody would advance an argument that silly*, but people have no problem doing so when it comes to Carey Price.

*Maybe PJ Stock

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04-21-2013, 02:22 AM
  #733
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Habs are just getting some terrible goaltending right now, similar to a stretch the Canucks went through earlier this season.

The thing that I don't understand is how many people proclaim Price clearly the "best" goaltender in the league, based solely on how technically strong he is. Year to year he bounces from being an elite ES goaltender (930-ish) to being outright average (915-920, like this season). It's mystifying. It's like calling a forward the best player in the NHL because he skates the fastest and has a great shot, even if he only averaged 55 points a season -- nobody would advance an argument that silly*, but people have no problem doing so when it comes to Carey Price.

*Maybe PJ Stock
It's just eastern conference bias by the Canadian hockey media. Those are the games they pay more attention to.

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04-21-2013, 02:24 AM
  #734
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Someone in the Bruins organization needs to tell Claude Julien to shut the **** up!

Jussi Jokinen is a goon, and his boys are angelic, perfect hockey players. Man, watching his post game interview, I broke out laughing twice. There is no possible way someone can just be that oblivious.

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Old
04-21-2013, 02:24 AM
  #735
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Habs are just getting some terrible goaltending right now, similar to a stretch the Canucks went through earlier this season.

The thing that I don't understand is how many people proclaim Price clearly the "best" goaltender in the league, based solely on how technically strong he is. Year to year he bounces from being an elite ES goaltender (930-ish) to being outright average (915-920, like this season). It's mystifying. It's like calling a forward the best player in the NHL because he skates the fastest and has a great shot, even if he only averaged 55 points a season -- nobody would advance an argument that silly*, but people have no problem doing so when it comes to Carey Price.

*Maybe PJ Stock
Goaltending is a bit different than Forwards in that sense, there is more factors as to judging a goalie than a player. Instead of solely their shot, speed, vision, size, physicality etc. in a player, in a goalie you have to take in his team strategy, defensive mindset, angles, post to post, shot recovery, rebounds, reflexes and more "tough to judge" factors like that.

If you ask me, Henrik Lundqvist, Carey Price, Craig Anderson and Cory Schneider are the best of the best this year all-around.

Notable mention to Crawford/Emery and Hiller/Fasth .

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04-21-2013, 02:30 AM
  #736
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Originally Posted by Royal Canuck View Post
Goaltending is a bit different than Forwards in that sense, there is more factors as to judging a goalie than a player. Instead of solely their shot, speed, vision, size, physicality etc. in a player, in a goalie you have to take in his team strategy, defensive mindset, angles, post to post, shot recovery, rebounds, reflexes and more "tough to judge" factors like that.

If you ask me, Henrik Lundqvist, Carey Price, Craig Anderson and Cory Schneider are the best of the best this year all-around.

Notable mention to Crawford/Emery and Hiller/Fasth .
In before someone else mentions that you forgot the likely vezina winner, Brobovksy. Niemi should probably also be on the list.

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04-21-2013, 02:36 AM
  #737
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In before someone else mentions that you forgot the likely vezina winner, Brobovksy. Niemi should probably also be on the list.
Yeah Bobrovsky has been outstanding too, forgot him.

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04-21-2013, 02:43 AM
  #738
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Originally Posted by Royal Canuck View Post
Goaltending is a bit different than Forwards in that sense, there is more factors as to judging a goalie than a player. Instead of solely their shot, speed, vision, size, physicality etc. in a player, in a goalie you have to take in his team strategy, defensive mindset, angles, post to post, shot recovery, rebounds, reflexes and more "tough to judge" factors like that.

If you ask me, Henrik Lundqvist, Carey Price, Craig Anderson and Cory Schneider are the best of the best this year all-around.

Notable mention to Crawford/Emery and Hiller/Fasth .
Again, why Price? His numbers are wholly unremarkable. Even if you ignore his play on the PK (some people don't believe goaltenders make any difference on the PK -- I'm somewhere in the middle on that), his ES numbers are completely run of the mill. He shouldn't be anywhere near the Vezina discussion.

Vezina finalists should be:

1. Bobrovsky

2. Lundqvist

3. Niemi

Schneider 4th with a shot to get into the finals if Niemi has a really bad last week.

My point is more that how good Price looks technically doesn't mean #*&@ if he doesn't play well. You can say he is the best technically, but calling him the "best" because of it seems completely crazy.

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04-21-2013, 02:56 AM
  #739
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Again, why Price? His numbers are wholly unremarkable. Even if you ignore his play on the PK (some people don't believe goaltenders make any difference on the PK -- I'm somewhere in the middle on that), his ES numbers are completely run of the mill. He shouldn't be anywhere near the Vezina discussion.

Vezina finalists should be:

1. Bobrovsky

2. Lundqvist

3. Niemi

Schneider 4th with a shot to get into the finals if Niemi has a really bad last week.

My point is more that how good Price looks technically doesn't mean #*&@ if he doesn't play well. You can say he is the best technically, but calling him the "best" because of it seems completely crazy.
Look at who he's playing around defensively.

Subban - Defensively isn't great, more known for his offense

Georges - Stay at home, can be casual kev esque

Markov - strictly offensive for the most part

Diaz - Wouldn't crack our Top-6

Emelin - Hurt, big hitter, average in his own end

Then you have Boullion, Tinordi and Beaulieu cycling in and out. Put a defensive system like St.Louis around him and his GAA would be under 2 consistently.

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04-21-2013, 03:03 AM
  #740
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If you told me Bobrovsky and Niemi would be in the same discussion as the Vezina at the start of the season, I'd point and laugh at you.

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04-21-2013, 03:03 AM
  #741
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In other news, what's up with OV growing grey hairs at 28?


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04-21-2013, 03:06 AM
  #742
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Originally Posted by Royal Canuck View Post
Look at who he's playing around defensively.

Subban - Defensively isn't great, more known for his offense

Georges - Stay at home, can be casual kev esque

Markov - strictly offensive for the most part

Diaz - Wouldn't crack our Top-6

Emelin - Hurt, big hitter, average in his own end

Then you have Boullion, Tinordi and Beaulieu cycling in and out. Put a defensive system like St.Louis around him and his GAA would be under 2 consistently.
Shot quality is not a demonstrable thing. Do not care about GAA.

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04-21-2013, 03:48 AM
  #743
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In other news, what's up with OV growing grey hairs at 28?

IT's normal some people get them in their teens lol

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04-21-2013, 11:32 AM
  #744
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IT's normal some people get them in their teens lol
Drew Miller has more grey hairs than my dad, who's almost twice his age.

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04-21-2013, 12:32 PM
  #745
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My God Claude Julien's whining has become tiresome. Is there a bigger hypocrite in the NHL? I'm willing to entertain suggestions but be prepared to have me laugh at you.

Video at right: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=421276

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04-21-2013, 01:18 PM
  #746
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Originally Posted by Royal Canuck View Post
Look at who he's playing around defensively.

Subban - Defensively isn't great, more known for his offense

Georges - Stay at home, can be casual kev esque

Markov - strictly offensive for the most part

Diaz - Wouldn't crack our Top-6

Emelin - Hurt, big hitter, average in his own end

Then you have Boullion, Tinordi and Beaulieu cycling in and out. Put a defensive system like St.Louis around him and his GAA would be under 2 consistently.

Irrelevent. His save % is a horrendous .905 and sitting around 30th in the league. You can attribute GAA to team defense but save % is much more attributable to the goaltender. Unless you think Montreal's defense is orders of magnitude worse than any other NHL team resulting in 2 or 3x the average number of "high quality" scoring chances that are driving his sav% so low ...

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04-21-2013, 01:53 PM
  #747
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Well, the thing is, Price has been getting destroyed on the PK. There isn't a lot of concrete evidence about where responsibility lies when that happens -- with the goaltender, or the team. The sample sizes are so small that it's hard to draw meaningful conclusions.

I do find it interesting that a lot of advanced stat junkies that buy into the fact that there's no such thing as "quality shots" also seem to believe that the team has more to do with the PK than the goaltender. That seems counter-intuitive to me. If you don't think defensive players can suppress shot quality at 5 on 5, why would they magically be able to suppress shot quality at 4 on 5?

I think there's probably some middle ground that we can't parse from the limited data, but it's certainly interesting. The thing is, the Habs are just about a top 10 PK in terms of shots generated against/60, so I don't see how they can be "bad". Price is probably getting some bad luck, and may just not be a good goaltender shorthanded. I don't know.

Personally, I think the skills a goaltender uses at 4 on 5 might be slightly different than at ES. A good blocking goaltender like Reimer might struggle in a 4 on 5 scenario, whereas I think a goaltender like Schneider is ideally suited to 4 on 5 hockey: he has quick reflexes, stays in position, tracks pucks remarkably well, and because of that he makes a lot of incredibly difficult rebound saves look easy (the kicksaves he makes out of the butterfly are his biggest advantage over Luongo in my amateur opinion). But you just can't find enough stats to qualify any of that, sadly.


Last edited by Proto: 04-21-2013 at 02:03 PM.
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04-21-2013, 02:02 PM
  #748
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Further to my last post, you'd probably need something like 10-12 seasons of 4 vs 5 statistics for a single goalie to have a reasonable sample size, and that would span such a long time-frame that it would be difficult to draw meaningful conclusions even from that.

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04-21-2013, 02:03 PM
  #749
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My God Claude Julien's whining has become tiresome. Is there a bigger hypocrite in the NHL? I'm willing to entertain suggestions but be prepared to have me laugh at you.

Video at right: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=421276
the answer is no. even though i'm not old enough to have watched or followed hockey before the 90's, i doubt there have ever been a bigger hypocrite in the history of this sport. the cooke hit on mcquaid brings back memory of the marchand on salo "hit", and julien was ok with that.

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04-21-2013, 02:24 PM
  #750
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Well, the thing is, Price has been getting destroyed on the PK. There isn't a lot of concrete evidence about where responsibility lies when that happens -- with the goaltender, or the team. The sample sizes are so small that it's hard to draw meaningful conclusions.

I do find it interesting that a lot of advanced stat junkies that buy into the fact that there's no such thing as "quality shots" also seem to believe that the team has more to do with the PK than the goaltender. That seems counter-intuitive to me. If you don't think defensive players can suppress shot quality at 5 on 5, why would they magically be able to suppress shot quality at 4 on 5?

I think there's probably some middle ground that we can't parse from the limited data, but it's certainly interesting. The thing is, the Habs are just about a top 10 PK in terms of shots generated against/60, so I don't see how they can be "bad". Price is probably getting some bad luck, and may just not be a good goaltender shorthanded. I don't know.

Personally, I think the skills a goaltender uses at 4 on 5 might be slightly different than at ES. A good blocking goaltender like Reimer might struggle in a 4 on 5 scenario, whereas I think a goaltender like Schneider is ideally suited to 4 on 5 hockey: he has quick reflexes, stays in position, tracks pucks remarkably well, and because of that he makes a lot of incredibly difficult rebound saves look easy (the kicksaves he makes out of the butterfly are his biggest advantage over Luongo in my amateur opinion). But you just can't find enough stats to qualify any of that, sadly.
Price isn't in the top 20 goalies with at least 20 games played for even strength save percentage. Terrible PK hurts him, but Price is bad overall right now.

Meanwhile, Reimer has the 3rd best shorthanded save percentage among goalies with at least 20 games.

I don't disagree that Schneider is likely very good in shorthanded situations - he's been remarkably consistent when shorthanded - a stat that's generally highly random.

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