HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Boston Bruins
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

What is REALLY wrong?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-08-2013, 09:47 AM
  #226
mich25
Registered User
 
mich25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 741
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by patty59 View Post
Danny Paille is 10th in SHTOI and 6th among forwards in SHTOI on the Bruins.
Paille has 48 SOG this year/11.1 SH% - He is on the 4th line so that SOG # even though 48, is right in line with other 4th liners on other teams, his SH% is much much higher though than others with around the same SOG numbers.

mich25 is offline  
Old
04-08-2013, 09:51 AM
  #227
mich25
Registered User
 
mich25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 741
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
For some reason, this year, and prolly before IIRC, Lucic has do to all the dirty work in the O zone, get the puck to DK who looks for Horton. It's as predictable as the 700 lbs line used to be...

I love Paille, but the only thing lacking in Lucic's game right now is his goal scoring
, and a lot of it has to do with he being the only one on his line that digs behind the goal line. If he gets a hat trick tonight, his numbers go right back into being in line.
I love the tangibles Lucic brings and I think he makes Krejci and Horton's game easier because of it, but in all fairness his SOG# are right in line with other top forwards in the NHL, so it's not like he's not getting chances or taking shots. It's just that he is missing or not finishing. Clearly his shot/scoring needs to improve. A SH% of 6.4% is not too great for a 1st liner. I would move him down a line or two to see if that could get him going in the scoring department, or switch things up and bring Jagr up to the 1st line.

mich25 is offline  
Old
04-08-2013, 09:52 AM
  #228
Greek_physique
Caron - Legit SNIPER
 
Greek_physique's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto, Ont
Country: Greece
Posts: 20,608
vCash: 500
IMO, Julien HAS to start mixing up the lines during the game.

I've been watching the Blackhawks over the past few weeks and Quenneville is the master of changing his lines DAILY. If the top line isn't producing, he'll swap certain players around and move up Kane or Bolland...and most of the time, it works! Julien's major change is moving up Paille/Campbell!!

With us, I wouldn't mind seeing Seguin or Peverly get a shift with DK stir things up, or even swap Lucic/Marchand.

There comes a point where you have to be open to change.

__________________
-Nikos
Greek_physique is offline  
Old
04-08-2013, 09:53 AM
  #229
PatriceBergeronFan
Dismayed B's Fan
 
PatriceBergeronFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 24,990
vCash: 583
My main issue with the Bruins is that they don't seem like the Bruins out there. Just another average team out there. The thing is, we all know they should be more than that. Everyone needs to step up their game, from the GM to the coaches to the players.

PatriceBergeronFan is offline  
Old
04-08-2013, 09:54 AM
  #230
Bone for your jar
Registered User
 
Bone for your jar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Boston, Mass.
Posts: 2,221
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NMF View Post
First off thanks for the kind works. Hindsight is definitely 20/20 and I was definitely on board with keeping the band together this summer. I think that it was probably a smart move, due to the uncertainty of the cap and the collective bargaining agreement. I see your point with PC going after Iginla and then ultimately landing Jagr. I think Jagr is a better fit for this team, because we don't have anyone that really fits his mold offensively. I think that he can teach a bunch of our guys a thing or two about puck protection and getting to the greasy areas to score goals. I don't think Iginla would have been a great fit because we already have guys that if they play to their potential can bring what he brings .

With that being said however, I don't think that was the only move chia should have made. I would have liked to see him move Horton, Peverley, one of our dmen, and a prospect for a second line winger and a #4 defenseman and a pick. The reason is simple. We currently need a shakeup and that would shake things up significantly. It would shake things up, but honestly I feel like we wouldn't be losing much as it stands for our team right now. The value IMHO would be there for a move like this Secondly, we would be preparing for the future. As it stands now, we lose Horton for nothing and most likely we will loose Ference for nothing. With the cap going down next year I think it is fairly likely that we loose them, unless they are going to take a severe hometown discount. Throwing in peverley adds some value to get trade done and frees up more cap space. Granted all the numbers would have to work and we would need a willing dance partner, but I would of least liked to see a move like this attempted and from all I am hearing nothing of the like was even attempted.

I think we are probably going to have to disagree on the last part about the personal not being able to open it up due to a lack of speed. I understand that this does play a role, but I think the bottom line is that there is no creativity. A lack of speed can be compensated for by good puck movement and supporting the puck. Unfortunatey,all i ever see is one of three things. A d to d up to the wing, A chip to center, or d pass to the center with no options for the center, because the wings are literally right on top of him. There is no room coming out of the d zone system, because the center of the ice has 4 of our guys, plus three of their guys. There is no wide guy to make a 20-30 foot outlet too. Instead its a chip up the ice that allows no speed to be made. I think that Lucic, Seguin, Marchand, Peverley, Paille,and possibly the Dogman all have good enough speed to stretch the ice. Lucic is a little dismal at side to side speed and agility and Paille has grenades for hands but they can at least stretch the ice going north and south ala Lucic's goal two weeks ago.

I am really glad I started posting here. Great place to talk hockey.
I think you're right that we're going to have to agree to disagree on part of that one. I agree that we have more speed than my post implied. However, I can't blame the system for our shoddy breakouts when what I see is an appalling lack of execution, plain and simple. What I see repeatedly this season is d-men fumbling with the puck instead of making quick decisions. Of course the options close and you're forced to sling it around the boards when you've given up the one best option that you had because of your hesitation. Of course your forwards won't retrieve the puck cleanly and will end up wearing opponents when your breakout pass is two Chara-stick-lengths away from the tip of their stick. We would not be complaining about the system if the players simply executed some of the very basics required for high-caliber NHL play, which is: quick decisions when under pressure, smart and reasonably precise passing when given time. Another poster put it well recently when describing what the Habs have shown this season that the B's haven't: acute focus. That's what it boils down to, for me.

Look, if they start showing acute focus and we still have trouble breaking out, I'm willing to entertain your systems-based analysis (which is a smart, reasonable, and insightful analysis). But until then, the dominant variable for me resides between the player's ears, not underneath their coach's shiny noggin.

You bring a lot to the table, and I look forward to more of your posts.


Last edited by Bone for your jar: 04-08-2013 at 10:00 AM.
Bone for your jar is offline  
Old
04-08-2013, 09:56 AM
  #231
bigbadbruins1
Registered User
 
bigbadbruins1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,829
vCash: 500
This team will never score a lot of goals on a consistent basis. Julien's system just wont allow for it. Julien would rather prevent a goal than score one, and it shows. Everyone is up in arms about scoring, but thats not how the Bruins win their games (or have won). They grind it out and win 1-0 or 2-1. or they lose by that margin. That IS the identity of the Bruins as of late, and they have been successful with it.

bigbadbruins1 is offline  
Old
04-08-2013, 09:56 AM
  #232
patty59
***************
 
patty59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lethbridge, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,072
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mich25 View Post
I love the tangibles Lucic brings and I think he makes Krejci and Horton's game easier because of it, but in all fairness his SOG# are right in line with other top forwards in the NHL, so it's not like he's not getting chances or taking shots. It's just that he is missing or not finishing. Clearly his shot/scoring needs to improve. A SH% of 6.4% is not too great for a 1st liner.
You're right, it's not good at all. in the past 5 years this is the only year he's been sub-12%, and 3 of those years he was at 17%.

He's taking less shots than he usually does. I know that there have been many times this year that he's had an opportunity to shoot and decided to pass. He needs to take those opportunities and put the puck on net, rather than look to pass.

patty59 is offline  
Old
04-08-2013, 10:00 AM
  #233
patty59
***************
 
patty59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lethbridge, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,072
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbadbruins1 View Post
This team will never score a lot of goals on a consistent basis. Julien's system just wont allow for it. Julien would rather prevent a goal than score one, and it shows. Everyone is up in arms about scoring, but thats not how the Bruins win their games (or have won). They grind it out and win 1-0 or 2-1. or they lose by that margin. That IS the identity of the Bruins as of late, and they have been successful with it.
I don't know about that, 3 of the past 5 years they were top 5 and top 3 twice. In 2010 they were dead last, but I think that had more to do with injuries and the loss of Kessel than the system.

This season they don't seem to play 'their game' they seem to be adjusting to the other teams rather than the other way around.

patty59 is offline  
Old
04-08-2013, 10:13 AM
  #234
PatriceBergeronFan
Dismayed B's Fan
 
PatriceBergeronFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 24,990
vCash: 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbadbruins1 View Post
This team will never score a lot of goals on a consistent basis. Julien's system just wont allow for it. Julien would rather prevent a goal than score one, and it shows. Everyone is up in arms about scoring, but thats not how the Bruins win their games (or have won). They grind it out and win 1-0 or 2-1. or they lose by that margin. That IS the identity of the Bruins as of late, and they have been successful with it.
Remember 08-09? Or that insane streak where the Bruins went something like 24-1-3 etc? We averaged a six-pack every other game! Something about this team is just off.

If "as of late" you mean recent seasons, I believe we are more likely to win in dominant fashion on the scoreboard, with hits, and in fights than a boring 1-0 snoozefest. Until this season, of course.

PatriceBergeronFan is offline  
Old
04-08-2013, 10:23 AM
  #235
Bone for your jar
Registered User
 
Bone for your jar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Boston, Mass.
Posts: 2,221
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbadbruins1 View Post
This team will never score a lot of goals on a consistent basis. Julien's system just wont allow for it. Julien would rather prevent a goal than score one, and it shows. Everyone is up in arms about scoring, but thats not how the Bruins win their games (or have won). They grind it out and win 1-0 or 2-1. or they lose by that margin. That IS the identity of the Bruins as of late, and they have been successful with it.
Does Julien hold their sticks? Is he the one causing Peverley and Paille to hit the high glass on every odd-man rush? Is he responsible for Seguin's tendency to blow possession by skating into human walls? Is Julien telling the forwards to stay well away from the net when they face a difficult goalie (Holtby, Lundqvist, etc)? Is Julien responsible for Horton's lethargy? Does the system compel players to repeatedly pass the puck beyond the reach of a streaking winger? Does the system tell Chara, Ference and Rask to hesitate with the puck so that we spend half the period pinned in our own end? If Julien would rather prevent a goal rather than score one, why do we routinely see D-men making deep adventures into enemy territory? If Julien's system is so risk averse, why do our D so often get caught pinching? If the coaches are all about defense, why does Naoko so often tell us before the third period how they're being told to go more north-south, to get pucks in deep, to create traffic? Why do we get Julien complaining about failure to put puck on net, or failure to capitalize on chances?


Last edited by Bone for your jar: 04-08-2013 at 10:28 AM.
Bone for your jar is offline  
Old
04-08-2013, 10:34 AM
  #236
mich25
Registered User
 
mich25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 741
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by patty59 View Post
You're right, it's not good at all. in the past 5 years this is the only year he's been sub-12%, and 3 of those years he was at 17%.

He's taking less shots than he usually does. I know that there have been many times this year that he's had an opportunity to shoot and decided to pass. He needs to take those opportunities and put the puck on net, rather than look to pass.
I'd like to see him shoot more too, if the opportunities are there. I don't know if he's taking less shots than he usually does, it does seem that way from watching games though, doesn't it? Although with the shorten season it's tough to really tell. I mean he's at 76 SOG in/36 GP so he's averaging about 2.1 SOG per game. In the past (during the regular season) he's averaged less than that though, most of the time.

2011-2012: 81 GP, 11.4%SH, 147 SOG - avg: 1.81 SOG/per game
2010-2011: 79 GP, 13.0%SH, 169 SOG - avg: 2.13 SOG/per game
2009-2010: 50 GP, 9.7%SH, 84 SOG - avg: 1.68 SOG/per game
2008-2009: 72 GP, 13.0% SH, 100 SOG - avg: 1.38 SOG/per game

mich25 is offline  
Old
04-08-2013, 10:35 AM
  #237
Over the volcano
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Watertown
Posts: 22,986
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bone for your jar View Post
You have some great insights, but some of what you say about Looch's linemates sounds as agenda-driven and hyperbolic as some of the Looch critics you're debating. In particular, regarding #46. I agree with you that Krejci is no speedster, but you make it sound as though he's just a one-dimensional floater who never wins a puck battle. That's not what I see at all. Looch wins more board battles, but on the back check I'm willing to wager Krejci actually has the edge.

Let's look at their Takeaway numbers for the past few seasons:
  • 2008-2009 Lucic 33 TkAs (7th in team)(in 72 Games Played) / Krejci 38 (4th in team)(82 GP)
  • 2009-2010 Lucic 12 TkAs (12th in team) (Games Played 50) / Krejci 31 TkAs (2nd most in team) (GP 73)
  • 2010-2011 Lucic 27 (9th in team) (GP 79) / Krejci 33 (6th in team)(GP 75)
  • 2011-2012 Lucic 25 (8th in team) (GP 81) / Krejci 43 (2nd in team)(GP 79)
  • 2012-2013 Lucic 16 / Krejci 16 (tied for 5th place)

Now, of course one scorekeeper's "takeaway" is not the same as another's, and like all "real time stats" these are subject to the vagaries of individual's interpretations. But they're not entirely fictitious either. They are based on observation -- imperfectly human and probably homer-biased observation, to be sure, but that doesn't mean they can just be made up out of thin air. If Bergeron has ranked 1st, 2nd, 1st and 2nd in team for TkAs over the course of the last four seasons, the real-time stats keepers must have some grasp of empirical reality. They're registering something that's happening on the ice. One way or another, in the past five seasons, scorekeepers have noticed Krejci taking away enough pucks to result in him either exceeding or equalling Lucic in the takeaway numbers. We haven't even mentioned face-offs yet, btw, which is certainly another way to win the puck: this season Looch has won 10, lost 13 (43.5%); Krejci has won 291, lost 237 (58%).

I offer the Takeaway stats not as absolute proof that Krejci is superior to Lucic in this department, but as a suggestion that many others (certainly myself included) do not see this baby-soft, Lucic-dependent Krejci that you at times portray, and that you seem to undervalue the way others have Looch.

(I am, however, closer to your views when it comes Horton, but that's a whole other story....).
I always wondered about the "takeaway" stat in general and with Lucic in particular. At least 2-3 times a game, defensemen will let lucic get to the puck first and then try to strip it from him rather than going in to get it themselves and taking a hit from him. The result is that more often than not he comes out with the puck because very few players are willing to take the body with him. But his "takeaway/giveaway" statistics would more likely show that he's caughing the puck up.

Over the volcano is online now  
Old
04-08-2013, 10:38 AM
  #238
patty59
***************
 
patty59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lethbridge, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,072
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mich25 View Post
I'd like to see him shoot more too, if the opportunities are there. I don't know if he's taking less shots than he usually does, it does seem that way from watching games though, doesn't it? Although with the shorten season it's tough to really tell. I mean he's at 76 SOG in/36 GP so he's averaging about 2.1 SOG per game. In the past (during the regular season) he's averaged less than that though, most of the time.

2011-2012: 81 GP, 11.4%SH, 147 SOG - avg: 1.81 SOG/per game
2010-2011: 79 GP, 13.0%SH, 169 SOG - avg: 2.13 SOG/per game
2009-2010: 50 GP, 9.7%SH, 84 SOG - avg: 1.68 SOG/per game
2008-2009: 72 GP, 13.0% SH, 100 SOG - avg: 1.38 SOG/per game
He's only taken 58 shots according to NHL.com. But ya, it does seem like he's shooting less, or at least when he has the puck and an opportunity to shoot, he's dishing it off, for some reason.

patty59 is offline  
Old
04-08-2013, 10:40 AM
  #239
Roll 4 Lines
Pastafarian!
 
Roll 4 Lines's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: In The Midnight Hour
Country: United States
Posts: 7,009
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bone for your jar View Post
Does Julien hold their sticks? Is he the one causing Peverley and Paille to hit the high glass on every odd-man rush? Is he responsible for Seguin's tendency to blow possession by skating into human walls? Is Julien telling the forwards to stay well away from the net when they face a difficult goalie (Holtby, Lundqvist, etc)? Is Julien responsible for Horton's lethargy? Does the system compel players to repeatedly pass the puck beyond the reach of a streaking winger? Does the system tell Chara, Ference and Rask to hesitate with the puck so that we spend half the period pinned in our own end? If Julien would rather prevent a goal rather than score one, why do we routinely see D-men making deep adventures into enemy territory? If Julien's system is so risk averse, why do our D so often get caught pinching? If the coaches are all about defense, why does Naoko so often tell us before the third period how they're being told to go more north-south, to get pucks in deep, to create traffic? Why do we get Julien complaining about failure to put puck on net, or failure to capitalize on chances?
I agree with you, except for the bolded. I think Seguin could be coached to take the puck wide when he enters the zone, play a little puck possession, and allow the play to develop.

One other thing that looks like a coaching issue, at least to my admittedly non-experienced eyes, is the 3rd forward high in the offensive zone.

At one point in the Montreal game 2 forwards had control of the puck low, and Marchand and both d-men were outside the blue line. SOMEONE was really high!

Roll 4 Lines is offline  
Old
04-08-2013, 10:54 AM
  #240
BMC
PerJohan Axelsson
 
BMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Northeastern CT
Country: United States
Posts: 30,001
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedeyeRocketeer View Post
woah woah, look at what Paille gets paid, then get back to me. Don't forget Paille is a big reason the PK is where it is.

Paille doesn't have to be better than Lucic, and never will. But for the tiny salary Paille gets compared to Lucic, he's doing vastly more for the money.
Yes. This season Daniel Paille has provided more value for the team than Milan Lucic, no doubt about that in my mind.

The question is why? What is going on with Lucic that he is having such a bad season? Is he hurt? Is it a mental issue- is he too complacent now that he's gotten the fat contract? Is the baby keeping him up too late at night? The Bruins need him to get going somehow.

BMC is offline  
Old
04-08-2013, 10:56 AM
  #241
BMC
PerJohan Axelsson
 
BMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Northeastern CT
Country: United States
Posts: 30,001
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bone for your jar View Post
Does Julien hold their sticks? Is he the one causing Peverley and Paille to hit the high glass on every odd-man rush? Is he responsible for Seguin's tendency to blow possession by skating into human walls? Is Julien telling the forwards to stay well away from the net when they face a difficult goalie (Holtby, Lundqvist, etc)? Is Julien responsible for Horton's lethargy? Does the system compel players to repeatedly pass the puck beyond the reach of a streaking winger? Does the system tell Chara, Ference and Rask to hesitate with the puck so that we spend half the period pinned in our own end? If Julien would rather prevent a goal rather than score one, why do we routinely see D-men making deep adventures into enemy territory? If Julien's system is so risk averse, why do our D so often get caught pinching? If the coaches are all about defense, why does Naoko so often tell us before the third period how they're being told to go more north-south, to get pucks in deep, to create traffic? Why do we get Julien complaining about failure to put puck on net, or failure to capitalize on chances?
Outstanding post.

I'm not saying that Claude can't do a better job, like the rest of the team I believe he can. But he's not the main problem here, not by a long shot.

BMC is offline  
Old
04-08-2013, 11:03 AM
  #242
mich25
Registered User
 
mich25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 741
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMC View Post
Yes. This season Daniel Paille has provided more value for the team than Milan Lucic, no doubt about that in my mind.

The question is why? What is going on with Lucic that he is having such a bad season? Is he hurt? Is it a mental issue- is he too complacent now that he's gotten the fat contract? Is the baby keeping him up too late at night? The Bruins need him to get going somehow.
I hope he and others too (it's just not Lucic) get it together soon. It's scary to think there are only 11 games left and we are all over the place. I don't like Claude keeping the LKH line together though if it's not working the way it should, not to say other lines aren't working, but I just feel like our 1st line hasn't been working all season long and there are some issues, so it's time to mix it up. Switching the 1st line up may get Lucic going in the scoring department and then they could always reunite Lucic, Krejci and Horton again - maybe. I feel like instead switching and playing with your 2nd, 3rd and 4th lines it would be just be easier to just move Lucic or Horton (maybe both) down to the 2nd or 3rd line and Jagr up to the 1st. I don't know though, I can't figure it out or Claudes thinking...

mich25 is offline  
Old
04-08-2013, 11:12 AM
  #243
Ladyfan
Miss Savvy and Looch
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: next to the bench
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,421
vCash: 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by GloryDaze4877 View Post
Agree to a certain extent, but not sure Krejci is the problem? More inclined to think that it's Horton, who has more goals than Lucic, but is the beneficiary of a lot of good passes/hard work by Lucic.

Would like to see Looch-DK-Segs.

Lucic gives DK and Segs room to operate, and Seguin will bring the puck up with speed, forcing Lucic to move his feet, and everybody wins.
That is what I see too.

Looch seems to be working hard and when he isn't playing well you can see it bothers him.

__________________
Winter is coming so the snowflakes will win!
Ladyfan is online now  
Old
04-08-2013, 11:19 AM
  #244
hoss75
Registered User
 
hoss75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cambridge, MA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,260
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladyfan View Post
That is what I see too.

Looch seems to be working hard and when he isn't playing well you can see it bothers him.
Yeah, I'm sort of thinking that Lucic and Krejci play at 2 different paces. When Krejci is controlling the tempo Lucic doesn't really look great and vice-versa.

hoss75 is offline  
Old
04-08-2013, 11:37 AM
  #245
CamFan81
HF Snob Agitator
 
CamFan81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: RI
Country: United States
Posts: 18,319
vCash: 500
i'll get flamed for it, but w/e.

Lucic has been one of the hardest working forwards on this team.


Now, that is in no way saying he's playing great. I repeat, that is in no way saying he's playing great. However, you watch horton's goals and whos the guy banging bodies behind the net to squirt the puck out to krejci or horton?

SlickM32 posted a graph showing the decline of lucic's goals + pts. But you know whats on the incline? His assists.

He's making space for teammates, they're not finishing. (horton open netter). Now, his goal scoring is disappointing and unacceptable but when see people say that he's a bum and does nothing blah blah, I really have to wonder what some games people are watching. Am I missing something so blatant, or do people already have some type of 77itsinmyblood8 agenda they need to satisfy.

Want to ***** about his goal scoring?Turnovers? Fine, but when you have Bergeron's line (before injury) being untouchable because they were performing so well, the 4th line being consistent, and a 3rd line that that has no one worth moving up what the hell are you going to do stick him w/ pandolfo and peverley? He's playing far better than anyone that has touched the 3rd line so far.


He needs to improve in more ways than 1, but he's actually doing stuff away from the puck that should have you picking a different player on that line to move.

CamFan81 is offline  
Old
04-08-2013, 11:58 AM
  #246
Ladyfan
Miss Savvy and Looch
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: next to the bench
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,421
vCash: 140
[QUOTE=CamFan81;63552797]i'll get flamed for it, but w/e.

Lucic has been one of the hardest working forwards on this team.


Now, that is in no way saying he's playing great. I repeat, that is in no way saying he's playing great. However, you watch horton's goals and whos the guy banging bodies behind the net to squirt the puck out to krejci or horton?

SlickM32 posted a graph showing the decline of lucic's goals + pts. But you know whats on the incline? His assists.

He's making space for teammates, they're not finishing. (horton open netter). Now, his goal scoring is disappointing and unacceptable but when see people say that he's a bum and does nothing blah blah, I really have to wonder what some games people are watching. Am I missing something so blatant, or do people already have some type of 77itsinmyblood8 agenda they need to satisfy.

Want to ***** about his goal scoring?Turnovers? Fine, but when you have Bergeron's line (before injury) being untouchable because they were performing so well, the 4th line being consistent, and a 3rd line that that has no one worth moving up what the hell are you going to do stick him w/ pandolfo and peverley? He's playing far better than anyone that has touched the 3rd line so far.


He needs to improve in more ways than 1, but he's actually doing stuff away from the puck that should have you picking a different player on that line to move.[/
QUOTE]

I would move Horton.

Ladyfan is online now  
Old
04-08-2013, 12:03 PM
  #247
LouJersey
Registered User
 
LouJersey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Quantico, VA
Country: United States
Posts: 44,299
vCash: 1000
Quote:
Originally Posted by CamFan81 View Post
i'll get flamed for it, but w/e.

Lucic has been one of the hardest working forwards on this team.


Now, that is in no way saying he's playing great. I repeat, that is in no way saying he's playing great. However, you watch horton's goals and whos the guy banging bodies behind the net to squirt the puck out to krejci or horton?

SlickM32 posted a graph showing the decline of lucic's goals + pts. But you know whats on the incline? His assists.

He's making space for teammates, they're not finishing. (horton open netter). Now, his goal scoring is disappointing and unacceptable but when see people say that he's a bum and does nothing blah blah, I really have to wonder what some games people are watching. Am I missing something so blatant, or do people already have some type of 77itsinmyblood8 agenda they need to satisfy.

Want to ***** about his goal scoring?Turnovers? Fine, but when you have Bergeron's line (before injury) being untouchable because they were performing so well, the 4th line being consistent, and a 3rd line that that has no one worth moving up what the hell are you going to do stick him w/ pandolfo and peverley? He's playing far better than anyone that has touched the 3rd line so far.


He needs to improve in more ways than 1, but he's actually doing stuff away from the puck that should have you picking a different player on that line to move.
Good post...all his other numbers are right where they should be (or even better) over an 82 game season except goals..

He leads the forwards in giveaways...with 27..Seguin is next with 22 , then BERGERON with 21...

LouJersey is offline  
Old
04-08-2013, 12:39 PM
  #248
Neely08
Registered User
 
Neely08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: North of Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 18,842
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bone for your jar View Post
You have some great insights, but some of what you say about Looch's linemates sounds as agenda-driven and hyperbolic as some of the Looch critics you're debating. In particular, regarding #46. I agree with you that Krejci is no speedster, but you make it sound as though he's just a one-dimensional floater who never wins a puck battle. That's not what I see at all. Looch wins more board battles, but on the back check I'm willing to wager Krejci actually has the edge.

Let's look at their Takeaway numbers for the past few seasons:
  • 2008-2009 Lucic 33 TkAs (7th in team)(in 72 Games Played) / Krejci 38 (4th in team)(82 GP)
  • 2009-2010 Lucic 12 TkAs (12th in team) (Games Played 50) / Krejci 31 TkAs (2nd most in team) (GP 73)
  • 2010-2011 Lucic 27 (9th in team) (GP 79) / Krejci 33 (6th in team)(GP 75)
  • 2011-2012 Lucic 25 (8th in team) (GP 81) / Krejci 43 (2nd in team)(GP 79)
  • 2012-2013 Lucic 16 / Krejci 16 (tied for 5th place)

Now, of course one scorekeeper's "takeaway" is not the same as another's, and like all "real time stats" these are subject to the vagaries of individual's interpretations. But they're not entirely fictitious either. They are based on observation -- imperfectly human and probably homer-biased observation, to be sure, but that doesn't mean they can just be made up out of thin air. If Bergeron has ranked 1st, 2nd, 1st and 2nd in team for TkAs over the course of the last four seasons, the real-time stats keepers must have some grasp of empirical reality. They're registering something that's happening on the ice. One way or another, in the past five seasons, scorekeepers have noticed Krejci taking away enough pucks to result in him either exceeding or equalling Lucic in the takeaway numbers. We haven't even mentioned face-offs yet, btw, which is certainly another way to win the puck: this season Looch has won 10, lost 13 (43.5%); Krejci has won 291, lost 237 (58%).

I offer the Takeaway stats not as absolute proof that Krejci is superior to Lucic in this department, but as a suggestion that many others (certainly myself included) do not see this baby-soft, Lucic-dependent Krejci that you at times portray, and that you seem to undervalue the way others have Looch.

(I am, however, closer to your views when it comes Horton, but that's a whole other story....).
Hyperbole, really? Well, then I beg your pardon. Do you see some of the posts I'm responding to? Lucic should be bought out? Lucic is fat and lazy? If you look back, I said that Krejci does a ton w/ the tools that he has. Meaning despite his lack of speed and physical ability, he finds ways to be a factor. Give him space, and he'll cook you. Krejci is a very good player, but his ability to be a factor is highly dependent if not overly dependant, on the space he needs to create. Sometimes the opposition is going to have a say. I did not say he was a one dimensional floater. I did not say he is fat, or lazy, or imply he should be bought out. Nor compare him to a 4th liner.

You're not trying tell me that Krejci's lack of foot speed is helpful, are you? Or, his lack of speed helps, not hinders, his ability to find his own time and space? Or, that Krejci is strong on the puck, or has the ability to win a lot of 1 vs 1 battles, right? Only B's fans who actually watch other teams realize how slow LKH is coming out of their zone. Krejci is as much a part of that as anyone.

I stand by the statement that I made; the reason Lucic has been glued to Krejci since we lost Savard is, unlike Bergeron, Krejci needs a certain amount of grit on his line to be successful. Anytime they've been separated, only one of them has produced w/o the other. This is in response to those who think Krejci would somehow benefit by an absence of Lucic on his line.

Takeaway stats are going to be skewed simply b/c of where Krejci plays in his own zone. For instance, when he and Chara 2 on 1 someone down low, and Chara stamps someone into the boards, and separates them from the puck. Not sure who is credited w/ a takeaway there. Faceoff stats? One is a center, the other a wing. Totally irrelevant. I can't even believe he was waved out 23 times.

If you're trying to imply that Krejci is a more, or equally dominant physical player. Or that you could put him between Marchand and Seguin, and still see the puck as much as he does w/ Lucic, or they do w/ Bergeron. Believe what you want. There's a reason we won't see that line, just as we won't see Lucic and Bergeron together.

In the offensive zone, you don't need stats to tell you who comes up w/ more pucks, or who wins more battles. Fairly obvious when Lucic gets him the puck 3 or 4 times on a shift what's going on. What happens after that is up to Mr. Krejci, is it not? When I ask Lucic's detractors where all the scoring chances Lucic has had, that he somehow flubbed, or blew. Or where the awesome setups from Krejci are that Lucic should be putting away, we get crickets. Truth is, b/c of the role he's in on that line, he's not getting a lot of chances, b/c he's far too often trying to set them up. Again, in what world do you want David Krejci battling for position in front of the net, and Lucic trying to set him up?


Last edited by Neely08: 04-08-2013 at 04:05 PM.
Neely08 is offline  
Old
04-08-2013, 12:39 PM
  #249
CamFan81
HF Snob Agitator
 
CamFan81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: RI
Country: United States
Posts: 18,319
vCash: 500
he's also 3rd on the team in assists behind 2 centers.


Not a fantastic stat, its not sexy in the least. But, it tells you as far as wingers go? He's not your biggest problem

CamFan81 is offline  
Old
04-08-2013, 01:00 PM
  #250
mich25
Registered User
 
mich25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 741
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CamFan81 View Post
i'll get flamed for it, but w/e.

Lucic has been one of the hardest working forwards on this team.


Now, that is in no way saying he's playing great. I repeat, that is in no way saying he's playing great. However, you watch horton's goals and whos the guy banging bodies behind the net to squirt the puck out to krejci or horton?

SlickM32 posted a graph showing the decline of lucic's goals + pts. But you know whats on the incline? His assists.

He's making space for teammates, they're not finishing. (horton open netter). Now, his goal scoring is disappointing and unacceptable but when see people say that he's a bum and does nothing blah blah, I really have to wonder what some games people are watching. Am I missing something so blatant, or do people already have some type of 77itsinmyblood8 agenda they need to satisfy.

Want to ***** about his goal scoring?Turnovers? Fine, but when you have Bergeron's line (before injury) being untouchable because they were performing so well, the 4th line being consistent, and a 3rd line that that has no one worth moving up what the hell are you going to do stick him w/ pandolfo and peverley? He's playing far better than anyone that has touched the 3rd line so far.


He needs to improve in more ways than 1, but he's actually doing stuff away from the puck that should have you picking a different player on that line to move.
Good post. Our 3rd line is brutal, but when you say that Lucic has been far better than anyone who has touched the 3rd line, I have to say in response "Well heck shouldn't he be?" If we are comparing our top line guys to our 3rd line players, then that's a problem IMO. We should be saying our top line guys are the best and not that "Well, they are far better than our 3rd line so far." They should be. And they should be better than our 2nd line too, but they aren't.

I agree that Lucic does a lot of the dirty work and hard work. I do have a problem with Horton and Lucic though. I think Lucic and Horton really need to be separated. We went out and got Jagr, who IMO would be a perfect fit on our top line and he's not even getting a shot.

The problem that I have is that Krejci and Hortons SH% is right there with other top forwards in the league, while Lucic's isn't, but his shots/chances are. I'm not putting the blame on Lucic because I think Horton is a problem too. Krejci overall numbers are good and in line with other top centers (goals, assists, pts/60 mintues, sh%). Lucic's assists are up and he's putting up assists similar to what you will find 1st line forwards putting up or a bit better - currently the same as Perry's numbers in that dept. I think. However, my problem is that Lucic shouldn't be focusing on passing the puck, but rather on shooting the puck. Now the problem is that Horton is not doing jack expect for getting goals (even though I think he could be doing better), but his goal avg per 60 minutes of play is one of the best among top forwards in the league. His assists/playmaking ability is terrible though. I'm not sure if it's been as bad in the past. I wonder if Horton isn't 100%. We all know that it took Bergy some time after his concussion, and I think Horton still might not be 100%. It seems to me that Horton does a lot of standing around, and waiting for the puck to come to him. He should be moving a bit more IMO, and maybe that's why Lucic is looking to dish the puck or looking for Horton rather than shooting the puck himself.

Anyways, I just think a change in the 1st line would be good, and moving Lucic or Horton - I would choose Horton, would also be good for our 3rd line maybe and them too. I just think it's worth a shot at least. I can't really see Jagr and Marchand being their most effective playing with a 4th line center, even though I do think Campbell has been playing well. Maybe Sequin can get Pevereley going, but I thought that Lucic and Horton have played well with Pevereley in the past too...


Last edited by mich25: 04-08-2013 at 01:15 PM.
mich25 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:36 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.