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Yes am going there: Is Gauthier a bit vindicated?

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Old
04-09-2013, 04:30 PM
  #201
la25ecoupe
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Same thing can be said abut Burke and Leafs

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04-09-2013, 04:34 PM
  #202
Kass Attack
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
What a terrible list.
Your bias is showing in each of your posts, so it doesn't come as a surprise that it's your opinion.

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Cammalleri's value was on the decline, and considering his injury history it would've been a gamble to wait until the deadline.
He still is on pace for a 60 points + season this year in Calgary. In a trade deadline where a UFA Paul Gaustad got you a 1st rounder, he would have been a valuable asset. Especially considering his playoffs history.

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Kaberle hasn't worked out, but hasn't cost us anything either so what does it matter.
Well, if you look at it this way, he prevented us from going after a much better d-man with his salary this past summer.

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He didn't replace Hamrlik & Wisniewski because they would cost too much. Would you seriously want either one on the team right now at their current price? He was banking on a returning Markov. In June he was told by the doctors Markov would be ready, Markov only became questionable much later.
Hum, he didn't replace them because THEY would cost too much? What about a guy like Hejda as a replacement for Hamrlik. Much more versatile than Hal Gill, and could have been signed for just over 3M a year. Wanted him then. Still think it would have been wise to go after him.

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The picks he traded away wouldn't have helped last year. Even if we had picked another Subban, that guy would only be getting a taste this season. Also we currently have one of the better prospect pools thanks to in no small part all the picks he added last season.
Who knows how 2nd rounders would have developped. Thing is, we still had CRAPPY depth in the system, and a lot of it is because all of the picks him and Gainey dealt away over the years.

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Most people in the know thought very highly of Cunneyworth as a potential NHL head coach someday. He was the right choice at the time even though it turned out terribly. If Molson had told the fans he cares more about having the best people for the job then he does language and he'll hire a translator if needed instead of apologizing maybe Cunneyworth would've have done better
.

Hiring Cunneyworth, a rookie head coach, and putting him in an impossible situation both hockey-wise and socially-wise, was not a move any GM of any kind of company would do if they're clever. It was terrible then, still is terrible now with insight.

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I'm glad he signed Gill and we picked up some solid assets because of it.
It would have been even better for his own sake if he replaced him with a more complete d-man who could bring a little of what Hammer used to give to us. If you think this way, why not just say we should sign any single UFA so we can flip them into assets right away? That's some flawed argumentation there.


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So you think he should've stuck with small & speedy even though it wasn't working that great? A team needs balance, he recognized we needed more size and made some moves to address that. What's the problem? BTW Bourque is a fairly fast guy so he doesn't hurt the speedy identity.
No, I say when you're a GM of a team, you're supposed to see the big picture. Saying some day that you're a team built around small, speedy and clever player, to just randomly go out 3 months later and make a claim about how you need size to succeed in this league, well, it makes you look like an idiot. And quite frankly, that's exactly what Gauthier was. He had no clue what it took to win into this league, and adjusted on a day-to-day basis, instead of looking at the big picture. He never foresaw anything, was always reacting to injuries/events after they happened instead of planning and being aware of his own team's multiple deficiencies.

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Personality wise you're right he was terrible. At the end of the day it comes down to this: A horrible GM leaves a horrible team in his wake. Gauthier left a team that was a few depth players and a coaching change away from being a contender.
Personality wise he was horrible. I still couldn't care less if he was vegetarian, vegan, or even an alien. He still didn't succeed to give this team a proper identity, wanted to decide everything about his franchise, controlled literally everything on every aspect, and had no clear long-term vision whatsoever. Gauthier left a complete mess for his successor, who fortunately surrounded himself well and made the right decisions to bring that team back to respectability.

And it might be early to say, at this point, that the Habs are truly "contenders". Many areas, notably the defense, still have to be greatly improved. Damn I wish we had those 4.25M this past summer to add an ingredient that is missing to the mix

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04-09-2013, 04:36 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
With months away from being a UFA, Wiz was no way signing that early unless he got what he wanted. But for argument sake even at 4.5M, in the summer of 2011, Markov would have not been re-signed.

Its Wiz or Markov...
Not it's not. We now have Kaberle and Markov. For 250K more, we'd have Wiz and Markov.

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04-09-2013, 04:38 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Not it's not. We now have Kaberle and Markov. For 250K more, we'd have Wiz and Markov.
The way Markov is playing, we should have dumped all of them, sad to say. He's playing on one leg like the pessimists feared. Doctors said he'd recover though, so you can't blame the Goat.

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04-09-2013, 04:50 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Not it's not. We now have Kaberle and Markov. For 250K more, we'd have Wiz and Markov.
It doesn't work that way, you have to look at the cap space during the summer, kaberle was acquires midseason when we had extra cap space because of the Markov injury. Like someone said if you wanted to keep wiz and Markov it means Cole wouldn't have been signed...

Your arguments are all over the place

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04-09-2013, 04:54 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
It doesn't work that way, you have to look at the cap space during the summer, kaberle was acquires midseason when we had extra cap space because of the Markov injury. Like someone said if you wanted to keep wiz and Markov it means Cole wouldn't have been signed...

Your arguments are all over the place
Yeah right... Pierre Gauthier was a great GM and he managed the d-men situation perfectly in the summer of 2011...

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04-09-2013, 04:57 PM
  #207
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The reason they crapped the bed is because Gauthier put all his money in on Markov being healthy and relying on an extremely inexperienced defense core. He had no insurance policy in case of Markov not being healthy. It led the Canadiens to rely on Emelin and Diaz who hadnt played a single nhl game until then. I remember at one point our defense was composed of Weber, St.Denis, Subban, Emelin, Diaz and Gorges for a while because of injuries to Spacek, Gill and Campoli. There was no veteren presence on the back end, which explains why the habs couldnt hold on to a lead, which was their biggest problem until Martin got fired. Go read the GDT from the first game of the season, all I remember was people confused at the fact that the Canadiens were clearly the better team in all of the games, yet only came out with like 2 wins in those first 10 games.

Add to that the injuries of Gionta and Cammalleri early on (along with Gill, Spacek, Markov)...the Canadiens had no locker-room leadership. This sunked them early on and they never really recovered, though they were trending upwards near the end of Martins tenure.

Ultimately, what did Gauthier in was banking the whole season on a healthy Markov. Everything else fell apart when he didnt start the season. Blown leads, injuries and lack of leadership in the dressing room killed the Canadiens. Look at the recent video on the Habs website of Bergevin, he said for him the biggest thing was to change the atmosphere in the lockeroom and it was exactly why he went to get Prust, Boullion and Armstrong.

Last year was anomaly, everything that could go wrong did. Until the actually shipping out of Gill, Cammalleri and Andrei...the team wasnt as bad as their record showed. Key players couldnt stay healthy, whenever one player came back another got hurt and this hurt most on the backend which was extremely green with no experience.

Also, I would say Gauthier should be given at least a little credit since the current D core outside of Boullion is essentially his construction and what he intended it to be at the start of last season had Markov been healthy. We would have seen Markov-Emelin, Subban-Gill or Spacek, Gorges-Diaz. He re-signed Markov and Gorges and brought in Emelin and Diaz.

He made one bad move last year when he tried to save the season in acquiring Kaberle to fix a broken powerplay and to try to get the Canadiens into a playoff spot considering they were only 4 points out when Martin got fired. And I would say his intentions were somewhat good, just Kaberle wasn't the answer. Look at the habs at the time and they had zero offense coming from the backend...hard to be a successful team without d-men scoring or setting up plays. Contrast that to this year with Markov and Subban as some of the top point-getters among d-men.

Fortunately for us, and Unfortunately for Gauthier, Markov wasn't ready because I still think that if he started the season, the Canadiens last year would have been a much different and much better team. His delayed return led to an overhaul in management and Alex galchenyuk.
In your effort to offer up "excuses" for Gauthier, you are simply reaffirming the point that he was inept.

Your first sentence screams out clueless from a GM.

You also point out the lack of locker room leadership. That falls on the GM who writes the contracts for players to be in the Habs locker room. It also points the finger at the inept coach whom Gauthier wanted in Montreal, Jacques Martin.

Last year was NOT an anomaly. Last year was a culmination of poor management decisions coming to fruition.

**** in--------**** out.

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04-09-2013, 05:00 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Yeah right... Pierre Gauthier was a great GM and he managed the d-men situation perfectly in the summer of 2011...
Find one person who said he was a "great" GM.

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04-09-2013, 05:01 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Yeah right... Pierre Gauthier was a great GM and he managed the d-men situation perfectly in the summer of 2011...
Guess that little debate is over


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04-09-2013, 05:04 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
So wait...

You say he made a bad move in not having Vet D-men, but yet you say re-signing vet D-men in Gill a bad move as well, who he then traded for a 2nd round pick after 53 games...... 1 of 3 2nd round pick he acquired as GM..
There is a huge difference between a skilled vet DMan and a really slow/past his prime/DMan.

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04-09-2013, 05:07 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
In your effort to offer up "excuses" for Gauthier, you are simply reaffirming the point that he was inept.

Your first sentence screams out clueless from a GM.

You also point out the lack of locker room leadership. That falls on the GM who writes the contracts for players to be in the Habs locker room. It also points the finger at the inept coach whom Gauthier wanted in Montreal, Jacques Martin.

Last year was NOT an anomaly. Last year was a culmination of poor management decisions coming to fruition.

**** in--------**** out.
In regards to that part, unless you have some information that it was PG, Martin was Gainey's hire. IF PG wanted fire Martin he didn't have a cause, team went to the EFC then a 96 point season. It's like blaming Molson who was a new owner for hiring PG when Gainey resigned, even if Molson wanted to hire a new regime had to wait for a reason to fire PG.


Last edited by habs03: 04-09-2013 at 05:13 PM.
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04-09-2013, 05:09 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
As I said I think MB has done a lot of good things but too many people ahve blinders on and give him credit for stuff he had no impact on.

Filling out the top floors on the Bell Center, the jury is very much still out on that one, a lot of those guys look smart and sound good but we'll need 2-3-4 years before we can definitely say all that staff made an impact on the francise.

The big reason MB was able to get Ryder in the fist place was because Gauthier signed Cole(had 35 goals last year, huge cap bargain at 4.5 mil) in the first place.
Dallas wouldn't have traded us Ryder and a 3rd for an autographed Daigneault jersey and a Bergevin signed stick.

Saying the Habs had no prospect depth is completely ridiculous. Just this year we saw 5 of them step in and contribute at different times. Part of that depth was not trading away top picks in 2012 and 2013 and added 3 2nd rounders in those two years.

The only bad contract he added was Kaberle and he had no impact on adding players for this year and will be gone this summer.
Kaberle did indeed hamper this team and had a huge negative impact this season.

A team can only have so many signed contracts. Kaberle has one and he just sat on that contract all season and did not allow Bergevin to bring in another player who would make an impact.

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04-09-2013, 05:10 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
There is a huge difference between a skilled vet DMan and a really slow/past his prime/DMan.
Sorry but I don't understand the point your trying to make in context of what we were talking about

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04-09-2013, 05:16 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
In regards to that part, unless you have some information that it was PG, Martin was Gainey's hire. IF PG wanted fire Martin he didn't have a cause, team went to the EFC then a 96 point season. It's like blaming Molson who was a new owner for hiring PG when Gainey resigned, even if Molson wanted to he had to wait for a reason to fire PG.
To believe what you are saying, a rational person has to suspend all common sense and all beliefs regarding day to day interactions between a manager and his number one assistant.

You and the other Gauthier rehabbers would like us to believe that Gainey locked himself in a room and pondered who should be the next coach. When Gauthier approached Gainey as to who he is going to hire, Gainey told Gauthier to **** off and leave him alone since he did not want any input whatsoever from his Assistant GM about his impending hire. And Gauthier being the good soldier, simply walked away and did not discuss the new coach, even though Gainey and Gauthier both knew Gainey was about to step down.

So you portray this out of touch and silent assistant manager who provided no input to Gainey suddenly breaking out of his shell to become the super assertive GM in Montreal.

As I said. Suspend all notions of reality to buy that one.

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04-09-2013, 05:29 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
He still is on pace for a 60 points + season this year in Calgary. In a trade deadline where a UFA Paul Gaustad got you a 1st rounder, he would have been a valuable asset. Especially considering his playoffs history.
What he's on pace for now doesn't really matter. How much was he worth last trade deadline? It's not a given he would've been worth more especially if he continued to struggle badly. Besides Calgary tried selling everything they could this deadline, yet didn't find any takers for Cammalleri even though points wise he's bounced back. That's a reason to doubt that he would've been worth much more than what we got from him.

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Well, if you look at it this way, he prevented us from going after a much better d-man with his salary this past summer.
On July 1st we still had the option of burying Kaberle in the minors and not having his salary count against the cap so we could've gone after a better D-Man anyways and dealt with Kaberle as needed. Not to mention I doubt Bergevin would've gone after a big name D man anyways with the cap space. He made it pretty clear he wanted to evaluate the team before making drastic changes.


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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Hum, he didn't replace them because THEY would cost too much? What about a guy like Hejda as a replacement for Hamrlik. Much more versatile than Hal Gill, and could have been signed for just over 3M a year. Wanted him then. Still think it would have been wise to go after him.
Do you know who he sent offers to? Just because it wasn't reported doesn't mean he didn't try to get someone. Hejda at 3.25m until he's 38 is not that great a deal. I prefer our situation as it stands today.

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Who knows how 2nd rounders would have developped. Thing is, we still had CRAPPY depth in the system, and a lot of it is because all of the picks him and Gainey dealt away over the years.
We're ranked 8th by HF, and have a lot of relatively good picks for next year as well. I wouldn't consider that crappy. Blaming Gauthier for the picks Gainey dealt away is not really fair.

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Hiring Cunneyworth, a rookie head coach, and putting him in an impossible situation both hockey-wise and socially-wise, was not a move any GM of any kind of company would do if they're clever. It was terrible then, still is terrible now with insight.
He was highly regard by the hockey world, I don't see how you don't give him a chance. Not too mention you often don't have a lot of options mid-season. Hockey-wise it was the right call and as I said Molson should've stood up to those "fans" rather than cut his legs out from under him.

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It would have been even better for his own sake if he replaced him with a more complete d-man who could bring a little of what Hammer used to give to us. If you think this way, why not just say we should sign any single UFA so we can flip them into assets right away? That's some flawed argumentation there.
It doesn't happen because no one would sign with you again without getting a NMC and even then the lack of trust/loyalty would mean you'd have to overpay not just UFAs but your own players as well.

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No, I say when you're a GM of a team, you're supposed to see the big picture. Saying some day that you're a team built around small, speedy and clever player, to just randomly go out 3 months later and make a claim about how you need size to succeed in this league, well, it makes you look like an idiot. And quite frankly, that's exactly what Gauthier was. He had no clue what it took to win into this league, and adjusted on a day-to-day basis, instead of looking at the big picture. He never foresaw anything, was always reacting to injuries/events after they happened instead of planning and being aware of his own team's multiple deficiencies.
I don't recall the exact quotes you are referencing but I doubt he said small. Bourque doesn't make us slower so we still kept a speedy identity. So those statements aren't contradictory. Considering he added Cole no doubt in part because he wanted to get bigger up front also lends credence to the fact that he didn't suddenly change his mind about the importance of size. He wasn't in the job long enough to know his long term vision, nor did he discuss it in the media like Bergevin has. That's not proof he didn't have one though.

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Personality wise he was horrible. I still couldn't care less if he was vegetarian, vegan, or even an alien. He still didn't succeed to give this team a proper identity, wanted to decide everything about his franchise, controlled literally everything on every aspect, and had no clear long-term vision whatsoever. Gauthier left a complete mess for his successor, who fortunately surrounded himself well and made the right decisions to bring that team back to respectability.
I'm a huge fan of the culture change Bergevin has brought about, but how exactly did Gauthier leave a complete mess? He left a team whose core is good enough for 2nd in the East, a good to above average prospect pool and a bunch of draft picks.

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And it might be early to say, at this point, that the Habs are truly "contenders". Many areas, notably the defense, still have to be greatly improved. Damn I wish we had those 4.25M this past summer to add an ingredient that is missing to the mix
We're 3rd in both Goals Scored and Goals Against per game so what area's need to be "greatly improved" again?

And considering Bergevin tried to go after Doan for what was rumored to be close to 5m, it's hard to claim we couldn't have gotten a 4m D man if Bergevin really wanted to.

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04-09-2013, 05:34 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
To believe what you are saying, a rational person has to suspend all common sense and all beliefs regarding day to day interactions between a manager and his number one assistant.

You and the other Gauthier rehabbers would like us to believe that Gainey locked himself in a room and pondered who should be the next coach. When Gauthier approached Gainey as to who he is going to hire, Gainey told Gauthier to **** off and leave him alone since he did not want any input whatsoever from his Assistant GM about his impending hire. And Gauthier being the good soldier, simply walked away and did not discuss the new coach, even though Gainey and Gauthier both knew Gainey was about to step down.

So you portray this out of touch and silent assistant manager who provided no input to Gainey suddenly breaking out of his shell to become the super assertive GM in Montreal.

As I said. Suspend all notions of reality to buy that one.
Isn't that exactly what Gauthier is accused of doing.

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04-09-2013, 05:35 PM
  #217
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Kaberle did indeed hamper this team and had a huge negative impact this season.

A team can only have so many signed contracts. Kaberle has one and he just sat on that contract all season and did not allow Bergevin to bring in another player who would make an impact.
It's hard to justify your contract when you never get a chance to play.

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04-09-2013, 05:36 PM
  #218
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Sorry but I don't understand the point your trying to make in context of what we were talking about
If you did not understand what I was saying, it is pointless to try to explain it to you.

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04-09-2013, 05:38 PM
  #219
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Isn't that exactly what Gauthier is accused of doing.
Why dont we just cut to the chase.

Do you miss Pierre Gauthier?

Do you wish Pierre Gauthier was still the GM?

Do you think that Pierre Gauthier is a better GM than Bergevin?

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04-09-2013, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
To believe what you are saying, a rational person has to suspend all common sense and all beliefs regarding day to day interactions between a manager and his number one assistant.

You and the other Gauthier rehabbers would like us to believe that Gainey locked himself in a room and pondered who should be the next coach. When Gauthier approached Gainey as to who he is going to hire, Gainey told Gauthier to **** off and leave him alone since he did not want any input whatsoever from his Assistant GM about his impending hire. And Gauthier being the good soldier, simply walked away and did not discuss the new coach, even though Gainey and Gauthier both knew Gainey was about to step down.

So you portray this out of touch and silent assistant manager who provided no input to Gainey suddenly breaking out of his shell to become the super assertive GM in Montreal.

As I said. Suspend all notions of reality to buy that one.
The difference between Ast GM and GM is that the GM had the final say, example, it has been reported that Dave Nonnis in TO actually wanted to hire Dallas Eakins as head coach of the Leafs to replace Wilson, yet Burke still hired Carlye. And those are two guys that have worked in 4 different places together, and have followed eachother everywhere.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/...e_feschuk.html

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04-09-2013, 05:42 PM
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If you did not understand what I was saying, it is pointless to try to explain it to you.
oook



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04-09-2013, 05:50 PM
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oook


Its too complicated and would require too much copy and paste. But I will paste your post.


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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
So wait...

You say he made a bad move in not having Vet D-men, but yet you say re-signing vet D-men in Gill a bad move as well, who he then traded for a 2nd round pick after 53 games...... 1 of 3 2nd round pick he acquired as GM..
HiggsBozon said that Gauthier did rely on a youthful D corps and only resigned the veteran Hal Gill who was past his prime.

You come back and make that post I quoted.

I tried to clarify that there is a difference between a good vet DMan and a washed up vet DMan.

Cant help you any more after this. You are on your own regarding comprehending it.

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04-09-2013, 05:57 PM
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Its too complicated and would require too much copy and paste. But I will paste your post.




HiggsBozon said that Gauthier did rely on a youthful D corps and only resigned the veteran Hal Gill who was past his prime.

You come back and make that post I quoted.

I tried to clarify that there is a difference between a good vet DMan and a washed up vet DMan.

Cant help you any more after this. You are on your own regarding comprehending it.


No he said Gauthier relied on a youthful D Corp, and mentioned that letting Wiz go and Hamrlik as examples

a few points later in the same post, he criticized Gauthier for signing vet D-men Hal Gil because he was slow and not as good as he was etc.

NOT because he ONLY signed Gill, but rather he just signed Gill.

My point that it contradicting

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04-09-2013, 06:03 PM
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SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post


No he said Gauthier relied on a youthful D Corp, and mentioned that letting Wiz go and Hamrlik as examples

a few points later in the same post, he criticized Gauthier for signing vet D-men Hal Gil because he was slow and not as good as he was etc.

NOT because he ONLY signed Gill, but rather he just signed Gill.

My point that it contradicting
You still dont get it.

Should have stuck with my original response to you.

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04-09-2013, 06:04 PM
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habs03
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You still dont get it.

Should have stuck with my original response to you.


What I was talking about was about their vet presence on the team, not their skill set, since that is what the original poster was questioning.

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