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Can Ovie win the Hart?

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Old
05-05-2013, 09:14 AM
  #1
Jaffray15
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Can Ovie win the Hart?

Given what the trophy means, I think he should win it. When the Caps were tanking earlier this season, so was he. Once he bought into Oates system, he took off and so did the rest of the team.

Other people are arguing Crosby should win it because of the torrid pace he was on before his injury. I disagree based on the fact Pittsburgh still finished first in the Conference without him.

What are your thoughts fellow Caps fans?

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05-05-2013, 09:51 AM
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brs03
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If value = objective value regardless of team situation, it's Crosby. But then that's also the criteria for the Lindsay award, so why have both mean the same thing just because different people vote on them?

If value = subjective value relative to team situation, sure why not? It'd be him or Bobrovsky in such a case (Toews and Kane cancelling each other I imagine), and few writers would vote for Bob since they seem to have the dumb notions that Hart is exclusive to playoff teams and non-goalies.

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05-05-2013, 11:07 AM
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I really don't like the Pittsburgh has a good team so Crosby doesn't deserve it argument.

I think Crosby deserves to win it but I will be thrilled if Ovechkin does. It would make up for the one that was unfairly taken from him in 2010.

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05-05-2013, 11:19 AM
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It can go either way... OP makes a good argument concerning Ovie... he carried that team to a strong seed.

A poll of 25 National Hockey League head coaches recently completed by TSN hockey insider Bob McKenzie revealed Sidney Crosby as the top choice for the Hart Trophy as the player voted on to be the most valuable to his team.

btw Pens could have finished 4-8-0 in those last 12 games and they would have still finished 1st overall in their Conference. So it's a pretty lame point. The Pens win percentage actually went down with him going down and Iginla, Morrow, Jokinen, and Murray added. For shame OP! I am so smacking you upside the head in person! Also, Iron Man 3 on Tuesday! Book it!


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05-05-2013, 12:11 PM
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ov has two. three under this circumstances probably isnt going to happen. the reality is that the missed games do to injury work against a player.

i still think its interesting that the media used to beat up on ovechkin for his physical play saying he couldnt keep playing that way. yet its crosby that has one issue after another and ov has rarely missed a game. of course ovechkin never seems to get credit for all the games he has played.

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05-05-2013, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
ov has two. three under this circumstances probably isnt going to happen. the reality is that the missed games do to injury work against a player.

i still think its interesting that the media used to beat up on ovechkin for his physical play saying he couldnt keep playing that way. yet its crosby that has one issue after another and ov has rarely missed a game. of course ovechkin never seems to get credit for all the games he has played.
just proves how much better crosby is because his ppg is so much higher.

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05-05-2013, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by californiacapsfan View Post
just proves how much better crosby is because his ppg is so much higher.
I mean, it does. I don't consider games played an achievement at all. **** Cal Ripken.

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05-05-2013, 01:14 PM
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I forgot they take away your editing privileges. I don't see why forcing you to spam the forums is helpful to anyone, but anyway... Ovechkin's durability is obviously remarkable and he's a beast of a human being. But it's not really a hockey achievement. PPG was more important when Ovechkin savaged the league in '09-'10, and it still is now.

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05-05-2013, 01:20 PM
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last time a checked the art ross was awarded to the most points. not the most points per game. so, the games matter. particularly when more games equals more production.
more is still more.

did you seriously diss cal ripken? didnt he have records for most hits, most hr's, most rbi, most assists, most putouts by a shortstop. career?

edit: how many points can you get in a game you dont play? more is still more.

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05-05-2013, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd View Post
last time a checked the art ross was awarded to the most points. not the most points per game. so, the games matter. particularly when more games equals more production.
more is still more.

did you seriously diss cal ripken? didnt he have records for most hits, most hr's, most rbi, most assists, most putouts by a shortstop. career?

edit: how many points can you get in a game you dont play? more is still more.
Nevermind

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05-05-2013, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
edit: how many points can you get in a game you dont play? more is still more.
Achievement only matters as proof of ability.

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05-05-2013, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by californiacapsfan View Post
Nevermind
agreed

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05-05-2013, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Liberati0n View Post
Achievement only matters as proof of ability.
I honestly don't understand this statement.

Durability in sport is a big deal and in a heavy contact sport all the more. Yes PPG is very important, but who's to say if it's sustainable when the player isn't durable. Ovie's body of work, even with his down periods is made more impressive by the fact that it's been basically sustainable over 700+ games.

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05-05-2013, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by californiacapsfan View Post
I honestly don't understand this statement.

Durability in sport is a big deal and in a heavy contact sport all the more. Yes PPG is very important, but who's to say if it's sustainable when the player isn't durable. Ovie's body of work, even with his down periods is made more impressive by the fact that it's been basically sustainable over 700+ games.
I'm not saying it doesn't matter. It's very impressive on Ovechkin's part. The Crosby/Ovechkin debate has always essentially been an argument over who is the better offensive player. Ovechkin's durability isn't really relevant, to me at least. His durability is an "ability" in itself, and as I said is impressive. What I meant by that statement, in regard to this, is that Ovechkin may have earned more points by being in the lineup, but the whole point of looking at any of this is to determine who is better. It's not about who achieves more, to me. But you're talking to a hardline Semin-defender (or apologist ).

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05-08-2013, 07:10 AM
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Hart is a seasonal trophy.

That means what you contribute to your teams on ice performance for that season determines your value.
Games played is a zero factor or should be considered as one. The game doesn't stop or start or wait for a player who misses games. There is one season of 82 (48) games and every team has those games to show off their players and their abilities.

Crosby and Ovechkin played the same length season and contributed x amount.

Over the course of the entire season Ovi had more goals, hits, etc... More games played means more contribution, whatever the return.

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05-08-2013, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Portable Mink View Post
Hart is a seasonal trophy.

That means what you contribute to your teams on ice performance for that season determines your value.
Games played is a zero factor or should be considered as one. The game doesn't stop or start or wait for a player who misses games. There is one season of 82 (48) games and every team has those games to show off their players and their abilities.

Crosby and Ovechkin played the same length season and contributed x amount.

Over the course of the entire season Ovi had more goals, hits, etc... More games played means more contribution, whatever the return.
I wasn't arguing Ovechkin shouldn't get the Hart, and I obviously hope he does. Ignoring the question of how much more goals should be worth than assists, Crosby did have a better season overall though.

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05-08-2013, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Liberati0n View Post
Ovechkin's durability isn't really relevant, to me at least..
i am thinking of a word.....crock.

firstly both players bring more than goals and assists. in the case of 8 he is easily one of the 10 most intimidating hitters in the nhl. he is at an elite level on that subject and any game where he fails to point but plays with energy and physicality he brings his team an advantage.

ov in the lineup is worth far more than crosby out of the lineup everytime.

i would be willing to bet that over the lenth of their careers that ovechkin's durability delivers in more years and better production in those out years than crosby and is lesser durability.

so 30 goal 35 year old ov is going to be worth more to his team than 34 year old and retired sidney crosby.

one more point. if ovechkin out points crosby by 250pts because he played 4 good years worth of games more, you think crosby the better player?

the all time best home run hitters were bonds, aaron, ruth and mays. mickey mantle who was probably better than all of them but didnt play as much because of injuries is not in the same league as the other 4.

btw...i am not suggesting ov should win the hart. i am saying the missed games work against the player. in this case crosby may have had a good enough season to make up for the missed time. i would suggest that a pitcher going 17-5 with a 2.00 era is a better cy young choice than a pitcher that was 12-0 with a 1.25 era but missed a lot time with an injury.


Last edited by txpd: 05-08-2013 at 04:08 PM.
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05-08-2013, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post

btw...i am not suggesting ov should win the hart. i am saying the missed games work against the player. in this case crosby may have had a good enough season to make up for the missed time. i would suggest that a pitcher going 17-5 with a 2.00 era is a better cy young choice than a pitcher that was 12-0 with a 1.25 era but missed a lot time with an injury.
Thats how its been from the dawn of the Hart trophy. It will affect the perception of the said player. Can't refute that I don't think.

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05-08-2013, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Liberati0n View Post
I wasn't arguing Ovechkin shouldn't get the Hart, and I obviously hope he does. Ignoring the question of how much more goals should be worth than assists, Crosby did have a better season overall though.
no he didnt.
he contributed in LESS games for his team. how is that having a better season?

By the sheer fact of Ovechkin playing it allows more space for his teammates etc...
he still hits people, still causes people to overplay him and get other players points/goals etc....

less games played means less impact and less contribution.

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05-08-2013, 06:11 PM
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brs03
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Originally Posted by Portable Mink View Post
no he didnt.
he contributed in LESS games for his team. how is that having a better season?

By the sheer fact of Ovechkin playing it allows more space for his teammates etc...
he still hits people, still causes people to overplay him and get other players points/goals etc....

less games played means less impact and less contribution.
Only if Crosby's replacement contributes less during those games than Ovi does during games in which he doesn't score.

That's also ignoring that early in the season many games had Ovi's contributions as negatives, since that Ovi-Riberio pairing could be something of a nightmare defensively.

(Not saying Crosby = Hart, of course; I think it's more interesting if it's someone else, since he should be a lock for the Lindsay. Just can't oversimplify and say more games = better when raw output is close. Have to account for replacements and negative contributions.)


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05-11-2013, 11:54 AM
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05-11-2013, 12:14 PM
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funny. same game. no effort here at all. 8 is coasting all the time.



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05-11-2013, 12:19 PM
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I hate the hart trophy

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05-11-2013, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Resurrection View Post
How dare Ovy not get way out of position and not read the future!

If he tries to stop him and he still scores, Ovy is a coach killer for not playing the system and not covering the point shot like he's supposed to.

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05-11-2013, 12:44 PM
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funny. same game. no effort here at all. 8 is coasting all the time.

Agree. Total selective memory.

Also, that call by Pierre was outrageous! I generally like him but that was terrible.

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