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Is PK Subban the Norris Front-runner?

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Old
04-09-2013, 11:37 AM
  #76
MonkeyBusiness
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Originally Posted by Fergy22 View Post
Zdeno Chara, One time winner all time loser.

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04-09-2013, 12:18 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
This is entirely subjective, sadly. The number of games played is not. You may be right, but there is no way to prove it.

Let's face it; there is the possibility that for some teams and some players, this year might be an anomaly. I doubt it's the case for the Habs, tho.
How is it subjective? It's a fact, not an opinion. A 48 game season is almost half as short as an 82 game one. So in theory, they have more time to get injured seeing how they are on the ice for 34 extra games.
There are anomalies in 82 game seasons too, look at us last year. Look at the Flyers a few years ago. This doesn't happen in just 48 game seasons.

But the main point seem to have escaped you. Everybody is on the same playing field.
Everybody started the season at the same time and will have played as many games, ending at the same time. In the end that's really all that matters.

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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Thing is, it's not like Subban is not fighting on equal ground. Yes, he'd win it after a 48 games season, that being said, all the other Ds out there had to dominate for as little as 48 games, not all 82 you usually play in a season. It's not like every d-men out there played 82 games, and the evaluation of PK's play was only for his first 48 games. They fight on equal ground.
Precisely my point.

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04-09-2013, 04:39 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
It's 58%. That's a big difference.

Just think of the 2010-11 season, the difference in play between the first and the second half of the season for Subban alone.
It is closer to 75%, as PRECISION/SIGNAL goes asvthevsquare root of the number of games, not as the number of games.

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04-09-2013, 05:55 PM
  #79
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http://video.canadiens.nhl.com/video...235705&lang=en

Go down to April 5th and Flash #36.

PK gives his two cents

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Old
04-09-2013, 05:59 PM
  #80
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I cannot find a good argument for KARLSSON, the darling of the league to have won it (still ridiculous IMO) and Subban not to win it. He not only has done what Karlsson did in terms of scoring, but he is just as bit as dominant as any other D man + his explosiveness, puck control, incredible skill.

How on earth is he NOT the best D man in the league?

I didn't think he was at the beginning, but he absolutely is. Massive props to him, he has throughout his career accelerated his progress. It really should be him. They'll use some stupid excuse to give it to freakin Letang. Something about embellishment or some "extra" aspect to his game. Remember when that was a GOOD thing to get under to other team's skin. fkin nhl.

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04-09-2013, 06:02 PM
  #81
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HAHAHAHHAAH that is hilarious. It should have the PK "U Mad?" pic next to it. Trollin the archives. Love it.

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04-09-2013, 08:19 PM
  #82
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Too exhausted to look completely through this thread tonight.....but last week when some of the PK for Norris talk started, many mentioned that PK doesn't play as many minutes as many other defensemen being considered and they somehow are "protected" minutes he gets. In other words, he is perhaps not as "tested" as some of the other defensemen. Maybe it's true but I've watched lots of Habs hockey this year and it always seems like PK is on the ice and in all situations. Has anyone else felt like he has protected or shielded minutes? I know Markov gets lots of ice time too but....PK is everywhere, I think.

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Old
04-11-2013, 10:06 PM
  #83
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Dat Drew Doughty money:


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04-11-2013, 10:10 PM
  #84
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Dat Drew Doughty money:

At least Doughty money.

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04-11-2013, 10:15 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Physical HABuse View Post
Too exhausted to look completely through this thread tonight.....but last week when some of the PK for Norris talk started, many mentioned that PK doesn't play as many minutes as many other defensemen being considered and they somehow are "protected" minutes he gets. In other words, he is perhaps not as "tested" as some of the other defensemen. Maybe it's true but I've watched lots of Habs hockey this year and it always seems like PK is on the ice and in all situations. Has anyone else felt like he has protected or shielded minutes? I know Markov gets lots of ice time too but....PK is everywhere, I think.
He has been after the first 10 games or so. He played the first little bit on teh 3rd pairing with Bouillion and got sheltered minutes and matchups because the Markov-Emelin and Gorges-Diaz pairings were successful so Therrien didn't want to mess with anything. After he got reunited with Gorges he went back to the top pairing duties from last season. The problem is the season is so short that there aren't enough games left for the averages to normalize, it still looks like Subban is getting pathetic matchups because he got really sheltered minutes with Bouillon for 10 games, and 10 games is nearly a third of all the games he's played. People are mostly talking about Corsi Rel QoC which measures the average quality of opposing players a guy faces, but there just hasn't been enough games for Subban's QoC number to climb back up to be around where Suter's is.

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04-11-2013, 10:23 PM
  #86
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At least Doughty money.
Yeah, he's gonna get a killer contract which sucks for us long term.

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04-11-2013, 10:29 PM
  #87
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Yeah, he's gonna get a killer contract which sucks for us long term.
Uh, yeah, except we hopefully get the benefit of having an elite D-man for the length of the contract.

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04-11-2013, 10:29 PM
  #88
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6 years 6.5 million or a bit less IMO. I don't think they'll pay him more than Price who is the highest paid player in Franchise HISTORY!

I think Subban would take a 6 year 6.25 million if it was offered. He just wants what is fair, from what he was saying during the contract dispute.

To be honest though, I could see him just taking a 7-8 deal at what Markov is making but maybe I put too much faith in his personality and attitude towards playing for MTL.

That being said, there could be some residual ******** (which I doubt) and he could try and take them to the grinders for a 7+ contract. Doubt it though.

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Old
04-11-2013, 10:30 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
I cannot find a good argument for KARLSSON, the darling of the league to have won it (still ridiculous IMO) and Subban not to win it. He not only has done what Karlsson did in terms of scoring, but he is just as bit as dominant as any other D man + his explosiveness, puck control, incredible skill.

How on earth is he NOT the best D man in the league?

I didn't think he was at the beginning, but he absolutely is. Massive props to him, he has throughout his career accelerated his progress. It really should be him. They'll use some stupid excuse to give it to freakin Letang. Something about embellishment or some "extra" aspect to his game. Remember when that was a GOOD thing to get under to other team's skin. fkin nhl.
About Karlsson, the year he won the Norris, he scored 78pts and was a +16, but only played 100 minutes on the Penalty kill. Most top pairing Dman would average 300minutes and if they are on a very bad defensive team that would climb to 400minutes. So without a doubt he got sheltered in Ottawa but what is telling is his differential was only +16. If he isn't playing as much on the Penalty Kill, what does that say about his even strength 5v5 play? Defenders of Karlsson can say that differential plus/minus isn't a good individual stat, and I would agree, but it is a team stat. Your either on the ice for a goal scored for or against. And for Karlsson he was on the ice for 50 even strength goals and to me that is pretty telling of his defensive abilities. People say he is a great all round player, I disagree, Karlsson like Subban gets matched up against top lines, but unlike Subban, Subban only gives up a goal ever 7-8 games even handed, with Karlsson its much worst. In fact Subban has a very good chance in this shortenned season of surpassing Karlsson's plus/minus rating even though Subban is being matched against top lines. A top pairing defenseman should at the most be giving up 10 goals even strength, if they are on a bad team, then this can be higher but even at 20 goals that should be the most that a top pairing defenseman should ever give up in a year. Its why they get paid the big money, they can't be the ones to allow 5v5 goals when they are on the ice. The second or third pairing will always shed more goals. Its on the penalty kill that really sets top pairing defenseman apart. And for Montreal, strangely enough we are actually not a good PK team this year and Subban is on the first team penalty kill and he still has a decent plus/minus.

Don't get me wrong, Erik Karlsson is an amazing gifted offensive defensiveman, who has great vision, good stick to stick passing and skates sublimely, but he is a liabilty on defense because of those same traits. PK Subban has the whole package, from offense instincts to defensive awareness. Subban in the last game, though he still couldnt stop the 2-1 when Markov pinched, his speed allowed him to get back into position and he has the ability to make stick checks to remove the puck from a player. He just got alittle unlucky with his timing in the Buffalo game, but you can see he has some instincts when it comes to defending. Karlsson doesn't have these traits.

PK Subban this year has really come into his own. Its just too bad that Erik Karlsson got injured. I would of really been intrested to see where both stacked up against eachother.

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04-11-2013, 10:33 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Forgedias View Post
PK Subban this year has really come into his own. Its just too bad that Erik Karlsson got injured. I would of really been intrested to see where both stacked up against eachother.
There is always next year.

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04-11-2013, 10:37 PM
  #91
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I don't know guys. He's still not convincingly better than Hamonic. I need to see more.

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04-11-2013, 10:44 PM
  #92
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Subban's on pace for 27 goals, 55 assists, and 82 points in a full season... and he missed the first 6 games... AND he played the first 6-8 on the third frickin pairing...

Last year Karlsson got 76 points and that was considered good enough for the Norris. Just saying.

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04-11-2013, 10:49 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Saundies View Post
Subban's on pace for 27 goals, 55 assists, and 82 points in a full season... and he missed the first 6 games... AND he played the first 6-8 on the third frickin pairing...

Last year Karlsson got 76 points and that was considered good enough for the Norris. Just saying.
I love Subban but lets not compare what Karlsson actually did to what Subban is on pace for...I wish Subban can match the season Karlsson had last year but until its all said and done, Karlsson's 76 points > Subban's 82 point pace

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04-11-2013, 10:59 PM
  #94
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I love Subban but lets not compare what Karlsson actually did to what Subban is on pace for...I wish Subban can match the season Karlsson had last year but until its all said and done, Karlsson's 76 points > Subban's 82 point pace
I will compare it because it is relevant. Yeah, Karlsson ACTUALLY did it but that doesn't mean Subban wouldn't/couldn't do it in an 82 game season.

If we wanna compare what Karlsson actually did and what PK is actually doing, then Karlsson had 31 points in his first 34 games last year. Subban currently has 34 points in 34 games this year... So I guess if we're going to talk in "actual facts" so to speak, you are watching Subban have the same season Karlsson had.

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04-11-2013, 10:59 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Saundies View Post
Subban's on pace for 27 goals, 55 assists, and 82 points in a full season... and he missed the first 6 games... AND he played the first 6-8 on the third frickin pairing...

Last year Karlsson got 76 points and that was considered good enough for the Norris. Just saying.
Karlsson was on another level in terms of ES production though. 50 ES points for a D is ridiculously good, the next highest TOTAL points was 53. Points are points but, whether people agree or not, points while there are the same number of players on the icetime are regarded more highly than those on the man advantage.

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04-11-2013, 11:01 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
6 years 6.5 million or a bit less IMO. I don't think they'll pay him more than Price who is the highest paid player in Franchise HISTORY!

I think Subban would take a 6 year 6.25 million if it was offered. He just wants what is fair, from what he was saying during the contract dispute.

To be honest though, I could see him just taking a 7-8 deal at what Markov is making but maybe I put too much faith in his personality and attitude towards playing for MTL.

That being said, there could be some residual ******** (which I doubt) and he could try and take them to the grinders for a 7+ contract. Doubt it though.
He wants what is fair... if he wins Norris... 7mil+ is fair.

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04-11-2013, 11:05 PM
  #97
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Karlsson was on another level in terms of ES production though. 50 ES points for a D is ridiculously good, the next highest TOTAL points was 53. Points are points but, whether people agree or not, points while there are the same number of players on the icetime are regarded more highly than those on the man advantage.
True, but you could argue that Subban brings the physical aspect to playing defense that Karlsson doesn't as well, bringing in hit totals, etc.

I'm not trying to discredit EK or his season, OR his Norris. He's an amazing player and, if he were healthy, would probably be the frontrunner again this year. I'm simply saying that PK is having a special season that's going to be awfully hard to ignore for voters. That's all.

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04-11-2013, 11:06 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Karlsson was on another level in terms of ES production though. 50 ES points for a D is ridiculously good, the next highest TOTAL points was 53. Points are points but, whether people agree or not, points while there are the same number of players on the icetime are regarded more highly than those on the man advantage.
Yup. This gets forgotten in the "Karlsson doesn't PK like PK" discussion. Karlsson's 5 on 5 production last year was absolutely mental.

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04-11-2013, 11:12 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Karlsson was on another level in terms of ES production though. 50 ES points for a D is ridiculously good, the next highest TOTAL points was 53. Points are points but, whether people agree or not, points while there are the same number of players on the icetime are regarded more highly than those on the man advantage.
Points at ES and on the PP depend on many factors which are team related and outside the control of the player - systems, teammates and luck.

All I know is PK is the best hab player I have seen in my 20 years of watching the habs. Only contender would be Markov in his prime, Koivu the year he was fighting for the NHL scoring lead with Lemieux before he injured his knee and Theo in his Hart and Vezina year. But I know that Subban will be able to repeat contrarily to the above mentioned players. He's the real deal.

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04-11-2013, 11:14 PM
  #100
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6 years 6.5 million or a bit less IMO. I don't think they'll pay him more than Price who is the highest paid player in Franchise HISTORY!

I think Subban would take a 6 year 6.25 million if it was offered. He just wants what is fair, from what he was saying during the contract dispute.

To be honest though, I could see him just taking a 7-8 deal at what Markov is making but maybe I put too much faith in his personality and attitude towards playing for MTL.

That being said, there could be some residual ******** (which I doubt) and he could try and take them to the grinders for a 7+ contract. Doubt it though.
You're not the only one to believe a that he could sign for less money so the team stay competitive and sign other players. Patch sign for 4,5M for that reason. I see Subban signing for 5,75M for 6 years. Even with a Norris.

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