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ATD Chat Thread VIII

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Old
05-07-2013, 11:32 AM
  #201
vecens24
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Can't believe Letang is a Norris finalist...he missed over a quarter of the season, and while he his offensive game is great, his defensive game is nothing special for a #1. If you're going to miss that much time and still be nominated you need to be elite both ways.



PS: Really I can believe it, the writers have made it perfectly clear they value offense way too heavily.
Meh, Letang really is one of the better defensive players in the league I think. He cheats up, but also is able to recover with his insane skating ability. He's FAR better defensively than Karlsson, for instance. He's also really physical for a guy his size. As in, despite being 5'10, he is pretty good at clearing out the net when he's paired with guys like Despres and Martin, who while bigger than he is don't have his physical game, plus he hits everything he can within reason. His defensive game is pretty underrated I think.

The missing 1/4 of the season part does make the nomination questionable in my mind though. You're 100% right there.

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Old
05-07-2013, 11:40 AM
  #202
Hawkey Town 18
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Meh, Letang really is one of the better defensive players in the league I think. He cheats up, but also is able to recover with his insane skating ability. He's FAR better defensively than Karlsson, for instance. He's also really physical for a guy his size. As in, despite being 5'10, he is pretty good at clearing out the net when he's paired with guys like Despres and Martin, who while bigger than he is don't have his physical game, plus he hits everything he can within reason. His defensive game is pretty underrated I think.

The missing 1/4 of the season part does make the nomination questionable in my mind though. You're 100% right there.
It's more about the games missed...I'm not really ragging on his defense, my stance is that if you're gonna miss that much time you need to be one of the top few guys both offensively and defensively, and I think we can agree that while good, he's not quite at that level defensively.

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Old
05-07-2013, 04:48 PM
  #203
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Eb: the Brodin/saad thing is Apple's and oranges. Points are the biggest thing forwards are judged by since its their primary responsibility. Therefore his points need to be placed in proper context in relation to other forwards. And if he was a certain degree ahead of the rest, the linemates issue could be overlooked (see Skinner, 2011). On the other hand, defensemen should not be just judged by point totals; the correlation between their overall effectiveness and TOI is much more pronounced. Brodin was effective enough to earn 23 minutes per game for a playoff team. Suter made that easier on him, but they still put him out in many tough situations over more experienced players. And what he did was simply much more rare for a rookie. And if you do want to take the Suter effect away from him, be my guest, but he was enough ahead of the pack (muzzin, Hamilton, Schultz, Dillon) to still win. Unlike saad and every other forward, who were not ahead of the pack at all. I agree a longer season would have helped greatly.
Ah, don't get me wrong: Jonas Brodin is a much better candidate than Brandon Saad, and I would of voted him as the Rookie of the Year, and excluded Saad. What I'm saying is that if Saad is in, then Brodin automatically should be in, as the only argument against Brodin is his linemate help, which Saad had plenty of with Toews and Hossa, and anyone who watched some hockey games of the two could see how much valuable Brodin was to his team.

It's like putting Mario Lemieux (Saad) All-Time over Bobby Orr (Brodin); it's nearly impossible to do so. However, you can make an argument for Lemieux (Saad) over Gretzky (Gallagher), but the argument is very thin.

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Old
05-07-2013, 06:10 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
How to be a Norris finalist: 1. Be one of the 3 highest scoring defensemen. Being your own team's #1 optional.Superstar teammates irrelevant
Indeed. It's the Karlsson effect.

They should introduce the Paul Coffey Award for highest scoring defenseman and let Karlsson, Green, Letang, etcetera compete for that.

The James Norris Memorial Trophy is supposed to be for: "defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position".

Three defensemen who have been better all-around defensemen this season but aren't top-10 in scoring so overlooked by voters:

Anaheim's Francois Beauchemin
St. Louis' Alex Pietrangelo
Chicago's Duncan Keith


Last edited by VanIslander: 05-07-2013 at 07:42 PM.
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Old
05-07-2013, 06:29 PM
  #205
Rob Scuderi
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Meh Letang deserved it. He's more of an offensive catalyst than people realize. After Crosby and Malkin, he's hands down the best offensive player on the team. He's prone to crappy decisions, but he's far from Mike Green. Plus Mike Green is as soft as they come, Letang's surprisingly nasty for being small.

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Old
05-07-2013, 07:02 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Indeed. It's the Karlsson effect.

They should introduce the Paul Coffey Award for highest scoring defenseman and let Karlsson, Green, Letang, etcetera compete for that.

The James Norris Memorial Trophy is supposed to be for: "defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position".

Three defensemen who have been better all-around defensemen this season but aren't top-10 in scoring so overlooked by voters:

Anaheim's Francois Beauchemin
St. Louis' Alex Pietrangelo
Detroit's Duncan Keith
I'll assume you mean Chicago's Duncan Keith unless there was something that I missed.

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Old
05-07-2013, 07:43 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
I'll assume you mean Chicago's Duncan Keith...
Haha. Multitasking error. I'm watching the Sens-Habs game, surfing the 'net and cooking at the same time.

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05-07-2013, 08:02 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Indeed. It's the Karlsson effect.

They should introduce the Paul Coffey Award for highest scoring defenseman and let Karlsson, Green, Letang, etcetera compete for that.

The James Norris Memorial Trophy is supposed to be for: "defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position".

Three defensemen who have been better all-around defensemen this season but aren't top-10 in scoring so overlooked by voters:

Anaheim's Francois Beauchemin
St. Louis' Alex Pietrangelo
Chicago's Duncan Keith
Yeah you're drunk if you think that Pietrangelo was better than Letang this year. Letang had more ES points than Pietrangelo did total points in 12 less games, plus was equally as good defensively. I understand the longevity question, but to say that Letang is part of the "highest scoring defenseman" thing is ridiculous to me

EDIT: I'll actually go as far as to day that it's stupid, and say that you don't watch the Pens enough if you think Letang is an offense only guy. I honestly don't think I emphasized it enough the first time.


Last edited by vecens24: 05-07-2013 at 08:12 PM.
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Old
05-07-2013, 08:17 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Yeah you're drunk if you think that Pietrangelo was better than Letang this year.

EDIT: I'll actually go as far as to day that it's stupid, ...
I'm drunk and stupid? I'm neither. But I am your biggest fan. You know what you are talking about.

Should a mod be making character assassinations?

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Old
05-07-2013, 08:23 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
I'm drunk and stupid? I'm neither. But I am your biggest fan. You know what you are talking about.

Should a mod be making character assassinations?
It's not a character assassination, i meant it as an opinion assassination. To say that Letang isn't a two way player is silly. He's every bit as good as Pietrangelo defensively, plus he's clearly far better offensively. Do you have an argument? It's not a "Pietrangelo is a bad defensive player" thing, because he's good. But I've already explained why Letang is good earlier. And Pietrangelo doesn't do anything better than Letang does in that end. Do you have an argument there?

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Old
05-07-2013, 10:59 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Indeed. It's the Karlsson effect.

They should introduce the Paul Coffey Award for highest scoring defenseman and let Karlsson, Green, Letang, etcetera compete for that.

The James Norris Memorial Trophy is supposed to be for: "defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position".

Three defensemen who have been better all-around defensemen this season but aren't top-10 in scoring so overlooked by voters:

Anaheim's Francois Beauchemin
St. Louis' Alex Pietrangelo
Chicago's Duncan Keith
Before Karlsson got injured this season, he was demonstrating far and away the greatest all-around ability at the position in the NHL. You can give him a Paul Coffey award if you like but his game is fully deserving of the Norris.

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Old
05-08-2013, 12:44 AM
  #212
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Before Karlsson got injured this season, he was demonstrating far and away the greatest all-around ability at the position in the NHL. You can give him a Paul Coffey award if you like but his game is fully deserving of the Norris.
Agree there.

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Old
05-08-2013, 08:15 AM
  #213
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2012-2013 SEASON STATISTICS

GP W L OT GA SA SV SV% GAA SO PIM MIN
REGULAR SEASON 20 13 4 0 42 519 477 .919 2.45 3 2 1,029
LEAGUE RANK 34TH 26TH 49TH 58TH 42ND 37TH 36TH 18TH 19TH 11TH
http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...vid=nhl-search Tomas Vokoun

The Sharks (SWEEP!) , Hawks, Sens, and Islanders are looking good. I like the defense, effort, and work ethic. The Pens look like they think they're entitled to show up, play offense, score goals, and win. I hope they keep it up and don't start Vokoun, because if they ever decide to play defense and start Vokoun they may win and I don't want to see them in the Finals if the Hawks make it.

Yesterday vecens was talking about games played for ATD players. Personally I like 650 for starters and 450 for spares.

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Old
05-08-2013, 10:43 AM
  #214
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Isles deserves to win but NHL cheers for the Pens. Still no news about suspensions on Letang (crosschecking a ref) and Morrow (trying drive a players head through the ice).

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Old
05-08-2013, 02:24 PM
  #215
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Isles deserves to win but NHL cheers for the Pens. Still no news about suspensions on Letang (crosschecking a ref) and Morrow (trying drive a players head through the ice).
From what I gather, the linesman Letang "crosschecked" didn't care enough to complain to the NHL, so the NHL doesn't care.

The only video I've seen of the incident is that looped gif that doesn't show anything that came before or after, so it's really hard to figure out the context of how hard he touched him.

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05-08-2013, 02:32 PM
  #216
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I really like the three finalists for the Vezina. Some posters on the main board are complaining that Rask didn't get a nod, but he falls behind the finalists in games played. Also, i think the fact that Tim Thomas put up significantly better numbers playing behind more or less the same team a few years ago may have weighed on the minds of the GMS.

Crazy to see Niemi as a Vezina finalist considering "Niemi'ing your way to the Cup" wasn't a compliment a few years ago.

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Old
05-08-2013, 03:58 PM
  #217
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Niemi has been awesome this season, and won't be, but would be a deserving Hart finalist. Letting Nabokov go and signing this guy on the cheap was one of the best moves the SJ front-office has ever made. It's a shame that the Sharks always seem to eat **** in the playoffs, because Doug Wilson is a good GM. The guy we fired before Wilson is a pretty good GM, as well.

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05-08-2013, 05:07 PM
  #218
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Bobrovsky is a surprise to me, not because he was bad (he was great) but because hes on a non-playoff team.

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05-08-2013, 06:54 PM
  #219
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Bobrovsky is a surprise to me, not because he was bad (he was great) but because he's on a non-playoff team.
That's often seen as an important consideration for the MVP of the league a la the Hart Trophy, but the best goaltender of the NHL could very well be on one of the worst teams: it doesn't take much to convince the hockey world that the Bluejackets pretty much suck and that Bobrovsky is the team's top star and a goalie that made the entire team competitive.

All three Vezina finalists are worthy winners. They've had a great year.

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05-08-2013, 07:13 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
That's often seen as an important consideration for the MVP of the league a la the Hart Trophy, but the best goaltender of the NHL could very well be on one of the worst teams: it doesn't take much to convince the hockey world that the Bluejackets pretty much suck and that Bobrovsky is the team's top star and a goalie that made the entire team competitive.

All three Vezina finalists are worthy winners. They've had a great year.
Yea Im not complaining I as just surprised. I think he deserves it no doubt

Edit: has a non-playoff teams goalie ever won it?

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05-08-2013, 07:34 PM
  #221
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Yea Im not complaining I as just surprised. I think he deserves it no doubt

Edit: has a non-playoff teams goalie ever won it?
I've seen it written that Roy Worters is the last goalie to get the Vezina on a non-playoff team, which obviously means that no goalie has ever won it since it's been voted on.

In a shortened season, maybe things will change.

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05-08-2013, 07:54 PM
  #222
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I've seen it written that Roy Worters is the last goalie to get the Vezina on a non-playoff team, which obviously means that no goalie has ever won it since it's been voted on.

In a shortened season, maybe things will change.
Columbus improved from 15th to 9th in the conference standings (30th to 17th league-wide) and from 28th to 11th in GA...that should help his cause.

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Old
05-09-2013, 05:12 PM
  #223
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Okay, HT18 just totally destroyed me in a 2 man draft. I'm the top team and my checking line is the Clarke/Clapper one.

Lindsay - Lemieux - Lafleur
Kharlamov - Mikita - Bossy
Firsov - Clarke - Clapper
Denneny - Trottier - Cook

Orr - Harvey
Shore - Bourque
Potvin - Robinson

Hasek
Sawchuk

Spares: Esposito, Taylor, Sakic, Pierre Pilote

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Messier - Gretzky - Howe
Hull - Beliveau - Jagr
Moore - Morenz - M. Richard
Mahovlich - Nighbor - Kurri

Lidstrom - Kelly
Fetisov - Chelios
Park - MacInnis

Roy
Plante

Spares: Coffey, Seibert, Yzerman, H. Richard

PP1
Beliveau - Gretzky - Howe
MacInnis - Hull

PP2
M. Richard - Morenz - Jagr
Fetisov - Kelly

PK1
Nighbor - Kurri
Lidstrom - Chelios

PK2
Moore - Kelly
Fetisov - Park

Extra PK: Messier (if Dman in box Kelly moves back)

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Old
05-09-2013, 05:24 PM
  #224
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Destroyed you? You have the four best defenceman of All-Time and the best goaltender. His forwards are much better, but I don't see it lopsided.

In a 2 team drafts like that, I definitely choose my goaltenders at the very end.

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05-09-2013, 05:29 PM
  #225
Hawkey Town 18
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Destroyed you? You have the four best defenceman of All-Time and the best goaltender. His forwards are much better, but I don't see it lopsided.

In a 2 team drafts like that, I definitely choose my goaltenders at the very end.
Yeah gmm, I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit. I like my team better, but it's definitely close.


EB, we went the same route as you suggested...our goaltenders were either the very last or second to last starters chosen by both of us.

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