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"NHL maintains their single-track approach."

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Old
04-20-2005, 08:26 AM
  #1
ULF_55
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"NHL maintains their single-track approach."

http://www.canada.com/calgary/calgar...f-f951bdf07e71

"While we discussed many of the issues related to the concept that we introduced at our last meeting, we were unable to make any progress today," said NHLPA senior director Ted Saskin.

"I remain concerned that the NHL is not serious about developing new concepts together and remains fixated on measuring all of our proposed concepts against a linked hard-cap system,'' Saskin said. ''I fail to see how we can make any progress if the NHL maintains their single-track approach."


NHL has never negotiated during these talks, they just keep putting their pre-packaged 6 proposals on the table at each meeting.

NHL has no intention of coming to a settlement. They want either complete surrender, no union, or replacement players.

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04-20-2005, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
NHL...want...no union.
Summed up quite nicely.

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04-20-2005, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
http://www.canada.com/calgary/calgar...f-f951bdf07e71

"While we discussed many of the issues related to the concept that we introduced at our last meeting, we were unable to make any progress today," said NHLPA senior director Ted Saskin.

"I remain concerned that the NHL is not serious about developing new concepts together and remains fixated on measuring all of our proposed concepts against a linked hard-cap system,'' Saskin said. ''I fail to see how we can make any progress if the NHL maintains their single-track approach."


NHL has never negotiated during these talks, they just keep putting their pre-packaged 6 proposals on the table at each meeting.

NHL has no intention of coming to a settlement. They want either complete surrender, no union, or replacement players.
someone has to show some balls and stand up to Bettman. Until that happens why would he negotiate?

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04-20-2005, 09:10 AM
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04-20-2005, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
NHL has never negotiated during these talks, they just keep putting their pre-packaged 6 proposals on the table at each meeting.
Funny, to read the Business board, you'd think that the NHL has just tirelessly put forth creative proposals this whole time, and it's only the evil and ignorant Bob Goodenow, who only wants to ruin the game, that has sabotaged the process again and again...because of his ego.

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04-20-2005, 09:29 AM
  #6
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I say good for the NHL.

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04-20-2005, 09:48 AM
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Bettman and the NHL is not the problem i hard cap is what the NHL needs the NHL cant negotiate with the NHLPA b/c the union wants systems that will not change the way the NHL has previously been run which clearly doesnt work with so many teams losing money. The players had it their way for long enough now they have to surrender and accept that in order for the NHL to work things need to be radically different than they were before. The players just dont want to lose the old system where they had everything their way.

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04-20-2005, 09:53 AM
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The NHLPA's strategy has always been to wait and wait and wait until the NHL panics and does something stupid. I can see the union's frustration that the league isn't doing that this time.

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04-20-2005, 10:31 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanwychen27
Bettman and the NHL is not the problem i hard cap is what the NHL needs the NHL cant negotiate with the NHLPA b/c the union wants systems that will not change the way the NHL has previously been run which clearly doesnt work with so many teams losing money.
NHL doesn't want a deal or they would have taken the 24% rollback with the hard cap less than 50 million.

They were both huge concessions from the players.

Personally, I hope it stays out another year and franchises fold.

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04-20-2005, 11:03 AM
  #10
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Note to Saskin.

Get on the train or get run over.

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04-20-2005, 11:34 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
The NHLPA's strategy has always been to wait and wait and wait until the NHL panics and does something stupid. I can see the union's frustration that the league isn't doing that this time.
Where can you see it?

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04-20-2005, 11:49 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
Where can you see it?
You can see it in their quotes in these articles after every so-called bargaining session. You can see it in the huge number of NHLPA players who didn't want a cap yet went to play in leagues where they played for about 20% of their current NHL salaries. You can see it in the NHLPA's threats to NHLPA players who might think of playing as scabs next year, as well as to any agents who might represent replacement players. You can see it every time a player vents his frustration with the current lockout situation in the media and then recants his statement the next day because his meaning was "misinterpreted." Like someone said before, the NHL caved in the last time. During the lockout in 95, do you know what the NHL wanted in the new CBA? That's right, a salary cap. And I even think they thought about revenue sharing. They've waited 10 years, which is ridiculous. So I don't know why the NHLPA agreeing to some half-assed cap is such a major concession when the NHL has wanted a hard cap for the last decade.

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04-20-2005, 11:52 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR94
During the lockout in 95, do you know what the NHL wanted in the new CBA? That's right, a salary cap. And I even think they thought about revenue sharing. They've waited 10 years, which is ridiculous. So I don't know why the NHLPA agreeing to some half-assed cap is such a major concession when the NHL has wanted a hard cap for the last decade.
NHLPA has agreed to a hard cap, and was the first to offer major concessions.

NHL has not negotiated.

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04-20-2005, 12:13 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
NHLPA has agreed to a hard cap, and was the first to offer major concessions.

NHL has not negotiated.
A hard cap that is 9 million more than the average league team payroll and that most of the teams would actually have to spend more money to reach, in some cases double their payrolls.

But it did sucker some people into thinking that it was actually a "concession".

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04-20-2005, 12:16 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
NHLPA has agreed to a hard cap, and was the first to offer major concessions.

NHL has not negotiated.
Smart lawyers working for the NHLPA side will be able to make that exact case when the NHL moves towards IMPASSE and this moves to the courts.

The NHLPA has attempted numerous approaches a rollback , a Luxury tax, even accepting a Hard Cap just with a larger range, and now this latest approach to bridge the Gap with a floating scale per team..

What does the NHL do bring in the biggest hardline Owners Jabobs etc to attack the NHLPA and accuse them that their proposals are not the NHL ones.

The NHL simple offers the same old stuff and all they do is change the binder colour in which they present it each time . Even triggers or anything they come up with is all to MEASURE THEIR CBA and Hard Cap against it, or make the NHLPA proposal to fit their own agenda ..

A CBA is compromise and the NHL has done very little of that .. In fact the Current offer on the table to the NHLPA is not a whole lot different then the one they offered in September with the $35 mil Hard Cap ...

The way the NHL negotiates and lowering their offers each time, then the next NHL CBA offer should be equal to their very first one ..

In the Summer Leaf fans here looked at a Leaf team with a NHL proposed 35 mil Hard Cap and the latest NHL offer was 37.5 mil .. Not a whole lot different IMO ..

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04-20-2005, 01:18 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
A hard cap that is 9 million more than the average league team payroll and that most of the teams would actually have to spend more money to reach, in some cases double their payrolls.

But it did sucker some people into thinking that it was actually a "concession".
Some people aren't aware that there were 10 teams with payrolls over 49 million, and 7 above 60 million, and 2 above 70.

And contrary to Bettman's magnet theory, the NFL teams payroll goes from 53 million at the low end to 95 million at the high end, but some suckers believe anything Bettman spouts.

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04-20-2005, 02:35 PM
  #17
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THAT ONE TRACK ULF - JUST GOT SERIOUSLY DERAILED TODAY.

BOG Meetings have just ended and Fan50 is reporting that

Quote:
Quote:
Howard Berger from Toronto's Team 590 Radio station is reporting NHL, Bettman came out of todays meeting saying " Replacement players was not really talked about and We will NOT start the season on time if we do not have a new CBA with the NHLPA in place come October."
Wow ... Just yesterday in all the reports Bettman said 100% the season will start on time ...


Either way, Bettman remains adamant that the NHL season will begin next October regardless of what transpires.
"My stance on starting the season hasn't changed," he told reporters after Tuesday's labour talks. "What I have said is that we are planning to start the season on time and that is a plan that will continue to be in place. But I do have a board meeting tomorrow and we have a number of issues and options and matters to discuss with the board so I can talk more about that tomorrow."

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/article.jsp?content=20050419_182927_8092


Today he must be suffering from SERIOUS whiplash with that 180 degree reversal and backtracking ..

I guess the Replacement player threat Gary just didn't get the desired response from either side EH ????? and IMPASSE posturing is not working very well either .. !!

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04-20-2005, 02:41 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
Some people aren't aware that there were 10 teams with payrolls over 49 million, and 7 above 60 million, and 2 above 70.

And contrary to Bettman's magnet theory, the NFL teams payroll goes from 53 million at the low end to 95 million at the high end, but some suckers believe anything Bettman spouts.
Here's a link for everyone to NHL team payrolls so that you don't need to keep repeating that first sentence:


NHL Team Payrolls

I already know who the $53 million is, the perennially cheap Cardinals but what is more significant is: how many teams are close to the $80 million cap?

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04-20-2005, 02:46 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
THAT ONE TRACK ULF - JUST GOT SERIOUSLY DERAILED TODAY.

BOG Meetings have just ended and Fan50 is reporting that

Wow ... Just yesterday in all the reports Bettman said 100% the season will start on time ...
This doesn't surprise me at all if replacement players never happens for two reasons.

1. It's becoming increasingly clear that the owners are not united behind Bettman. You know this when you've got Bettman to come to Toronto and try and persuade them to accepet revenue sharing and at the same time they're telling him that they won't support replacement players. I'm sure there were other teams with this stance.

2. I never understood why the NHL was pushing replacement players anyway. There's a chance that replacement players would give the players some leverage. The worst thing for the players would be if the owners just told them that nothing's changing and the next season won't start on time either if they don't come to an agreement.

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04-20-2005, 03:01 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Here's a link for everyone to NHL team payrolls so that you don't need to keep repeating that first sentence:


NHL Team Payrolls

I already know who the $53 million is, the perennially cheap Cardinals but what is more significant is: how many teams are close to the $80 million cap?

2003 gap: 53 to 95
2002 gap: 43 to 85
2001 gap: 47 to 102
2000 gap: 42 to 58


2003:

New Orleans Saints $ 95,103,350
Tampa Bay Buccaneers $ 88,084,700
Minnesota Vikings $ 85,719,851
Cincinnati Bengals $ 85,457,225
Atlanta Falcons $ 84,861,253
Washington Redskins $ 84,826,189
Seattle Seahawks $ 84,227,732
Chicago Bears $ 82,803,517
New England Patriots $ 82,128,250
Dallas Cowboys $ 81,042,307
Arizona Cardinals $ 81,034,928
St. Louis Rams $ 80,224,050
Jacksonville Jaguars $ 78,735,117
New York Giants $ 78,125,309
Detroit Lions $ 77,662,097
Houston Texans $ 77,591,518
Philadelphia Eagles $ 77,436,900
Kansas City Chiefs $ 77,394,073
Green Bay Packers $ 77,230,121
Baltimore Ravens $ 76,154,450
Tennessee Titans $ 75,575,947
Carolina Panthers $ 75,004,350
Indianapolis Colts $ 74,998,224
Oakland Raiders $ 74,904,848
Buffalo Bills $ 73,299,382
San Diego Chargers $ 73,230,536
New York Jets $ 69,209,828
Miami Dolphins $ 67,439,147
Denver Broncos $ 64,826,919
Pittsburgh Steelers $ 63,571,735
San Francisco 49ers $ 60,519,309
Cleveland Browns $ 53,849,750

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04-20-2005, 03:05 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
2003 gap: 53 to 95
2002 gap: 43 to 85
2001 gap: 47 to 102
2000 gap: 42 to 58


2003:

New Orleans Saints $ 95,103,350
Tampa Bay Buccaneers $ 88,084,700
Minnesota Vikings $ 85,719,851
Cincinnati Bengals $ 85,457,225
Atlanta Falcons $ 84,861,253
Washington Redskins $ 84,826,189
Seattle Seahawks $ 84,227,732
Chicago Bears $ 82,803,517
New England Patriots $ 82,128,250
Dallas Cowboys $ 81,042,307
Arizona Cardinals $ 81,034,928
St. Louis Rams $ 80,224,050
Jacksonville Jaguars $ 78,735,117
New York Giants $ 78,125,309
Detroit Lions $ 77,662,097
Houston Texans $ 77,591,518
Philadelphia Eagles $ 77,436,900
Kansas City Chiefs $ 77,394,073
Green Bay Packers $ 77,230,121
Baltimore Ravens $ 76,154,450
Tennessee Titans $ 75,575,947
Carolina Panthers $ 75,004,350
Indianapolis Colts $ 74,998,224
Oakland Raiders $ 74,904,848
Buffalo Bills $ 73,299,382
San Diego Chargers $ 73,230,536
New York Jets $ 69,209,828
Miami Dolphins $ 67,439,147
Denver Broncos $ 64,826,919
Pittsburgh Steelers $ 63,571,735
San Francisco 49ers $ 60,519,309
Cleveland Browns $ 53,849,750
So, 26 out of 32 team within 10% of the $80 million cap. That, to me, looks like the result of a magnet effect.

Look at it realistically, whatever the cap ends up being the NHLPA will be marshalling their troops to get every team as close as possible to it.

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04-20-2005, 03:10 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
This doesn't surprise me at all if replacement players never happens for two reasons.

1. It's becoming increasingly clear that the owners are not united behind Bettman. You know this when you've got Bettman to come to Toronto and try and persuade them to accepet revenue sharing and at the same time they're telling him that they won't support replacement players. I'm sure there were other teams with this stance.

2. I never understood why the NHL was pushing replacement players anyway. There's a chance that replacement players would give the players some leverage. The worst thing for the players would be if the owners just told them that nothing's changing and the next season won't start on time either if they don't come to an agreement.
I agree on both points ..

The threat of more of the same and a continued Lockout is the safest approach for the NHL and test player solidarity more then failed Replacement players which completely gives all the leverage to the NHLPA ..

Yesterday on TSN ..Its in the Video section if you are interested under :

Hockey INSIDERS
The panel talks about the progress, or lack thereof, at Tuesday's meeting.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/

Brian Burke and the panel talks about 2 splits both GM's and Owners level and as much as 2/3 rds of GM's are against replacement players ..

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04-20-2005, 03:20 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
Brian Burke and the panel talks about 2 splits both GM's and Owners level and as much as 2/3 rds of GM's are against replacement players ..
Funny, I mentioned an article to tmlfans.ca about the resistance by some owners on replacement players and was told to show them a link. I showed them the link and they said it was just some players schill because it was Dowbiggin.

So I guess Burke is now a players schill ... well according to the pro-owners group.

Anyone that reports anything other than owners are perfect and players are stupid, greedy, uneducated twerps are NHLPA schills.

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04-20-2005, 03:31 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
The threat of more of the same and a continued Lockout is the safest approach for the NHL and test player solidarity more then failed Replacement players which completely gives all the leverage to the NHLPA
Bingo. And here's where the owners have leverage. If they just threaten an indefinite lockout until the players agree to their demands then there's really nothing the players can do. Unless they happen know another 30 billionaires who are interested in starting up a hockey league somewhere. What are they going to do? Hopefully what they do is come to their senses and realize that no matter how bad they think the offer is they're getting from the owners, it's still far far better than what they'd make anywhere else. The players want a free market, well that's a free market for ya: Here's what we're willing to pay you, if you dont like it you're perfectly free to go work somewhere else.

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04-20-2005, 04:00 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loveshack2
Bingo. And here's where the owners have leverage. If they just threaten an indefinite lockout until the players agree to their demands then there's really nothing the players can do. Unless they happen know another 30 billionaires who are interested in starting up a hockey league somewhere. What are they going to do? Hopefully what they do is come to their senses and realize that no matter how bad they think the offer is they're getting from the owners, it's still far far better than what they'd make anywhere else. The players want a free market, well that's a free market for ya: Here's what we're willing to pay you, if you dont like it you're perfectly free to go work somewhere else.
The downfall is that Bettman and the owners group patience and solidarity will also be tested by this option .. Big market owners like Our leafs lost a lot of money last season by not playing .. Do you believe that the longer this goes particularly if it goes into next year that the pressure from within the Owners group is going to get near unbearable as well .. Some of these teams made money under the old system .. The 24% would have put most in a favourable financial position and any of these other NHLPA proposals would allow the majority of owners to make a profit if them became good businessmen .. So some point will come when not playing will make less sense for most .. IMO ..

and vice versa .. Some of the small market owners are robbing the War Chest already to pay the bills.. All owners put in 10 mil to draw from, what happens as that dries up for some .. pressure to accept any CBA to get season ticket money may become a matter of survival ..

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