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Old
06-07-2013, 04:16 PM
  #276
Sinurgy
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So...anyone have any thoughts on PRISM? I can't say I'm surprised but still it's pretty disheartening. Post 9/11 U.S. is becoming more and more frightening and not because of the terrorist threat.

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06-07-2013, 04:42 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Sinurgy View Post
So...anyone have any thoughts on PRISM? I can't say I'm surprised but still it's pretty disheartening. Post 9/11 U.S. is becoming more and more frightening and not because of the terrorist threat.
I just finished Christopher Hitchens' book about the Clintons--No One Left To Lie To. Surveillance is not addressed specifically in the book, but Hitchens does talk about the Clinton administration's relationship with the military-industrial complex, which was intimate indeed, by any standard. And that was pre-9/11, pre-axis of evil, in a period when the US had no major rivals for the first time since 1945. I can only imagine what's transpired since then. One wonders how much, in dollars, the contracts for programs like PRISM are worth.

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06-07-2013, 05:04 PM
  #278
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The military/industrial part scares me less because the rich (churches, industrialists) have always had undue influence.

"You can't have 100% security, and also then have 100% privacy and zero inconvenience," Mr Obama said.

Nobody wants 100% security, and government is too incompetent / complacent to provide it anyway. We're not being infringed upon ... we're becoming lazy, terrified, complacent p*****s. There were worse bodycounts than Sandy Hook / Boston the same week elsewhere in the world, but we're too short-sighted to even realize how outrageously safe we are. This is a $100 wrong solution to a 25 cent problem ...

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06-07-2013, 05:29 PM
  #279
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Nobody wants 100% security, and government is too incompetent / complacent to provide it anyway.
That, unfortunately for us, is the point; you draw a distinction where none exists. "100% security" is impossible. The White House understands this, as do Congress, DHS, the CIA, and on down the list. But they can insist that total security is the goal nonetheless and justify their expenditures accordingly. It's a very old game.

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06-07-2013, 06:14 PM
  #280
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Thanks guys.

My dad doesn't know yet. I think that's going to be the hardest one. My hockey teammates don't know yet either but one of them is a poster here and she'll find out soon enough if she reads this thread. I'm okay with that though.
No worries and I'm the kind of person who has taken a big part of MLK's dream a took it to another level it. MLK said that he had a dream that one day his 4 little children will one day live in a nation where they are not judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I don't judge people by race, sex, color, sexual orientation, creed, etc but based on their character only across the board. You're a cool person in my eyes I have no reason to hate you. Live live to the fullest and make the best of your life one day at a time.


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06-07-2013, 06:34 PM
  #281
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Eh, as annoying as the whole government spying thing is, I think the privacy issue on the interwebs is overrated. Seriously, anyone thinking for a second that information transmitted on the internet won't ever be seen by inadvertent eyes, be them hackers, google/amazon/facebook/yahoo/microsoft employees or NSA spooks is delusional.

Communication has become just as transparent and forever archived as bank transaction records, with far less security. That's just how it is. I pretty much assume that given enough time and motivation, a lot of people in this world would be able to tie my various internet accounts together, my porn watching habits, every time I've gotten in an embarrassing argument on these boards, whether or not I ever cheated on my wife, my tax records etc etc etc...

Whatever. Secrets are meant to be found eventually. As long as your secrets don't involve killing, torturing or ****** people, I don't think anyone really gives a ****. And if you do, well, I'd rather you get caught.

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06-07-2013, 07:15 PM
  #282
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Eh, as annoying as the whole government spying thing is, I think the privacy issue on the interwebs is overrated. Seriously, anyone thinking for a second that information transmitted on the internet won't ever be seen by inadvertent eyes, be them hackers, google/amazon/facebook/yahoo/microsoft employees or NSA spooks is delusional.

Communication has become just as transparent and forever archived as bank transaction records, with far less security. That's just how it is. I pretty much assume that given enough time and motivation, a lot of people in this world would be able to tie my various internet accounts together, my porn watching habits, every time I've gotten in an embarrassing argument on these boards, whether or not I ever cheated on my wife, my tax records etc etc etc...

Whatever. Secrets are meant to be found eventually. As long as your secrets don't involve killing, torturing or ****** people, I don't think anyone really gives a ****. And if you do, well, I'd rather you get caught.
I understand why you're being apathetic but I think you're trivializing it. Sure posting some silly **** on your facebook is one thing but having a 2 way conversation on your phone is quite another. I'm not ok with having no control over my own information, that I should have no reasonable expectation of privacy and worst of all that I should be looked at as being shady for having such an expectation.

Reminds me of that quote from Troops (Star Wars fan film)...
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All suspects are guilty, period. Otherwise they wouldn't be suspect now would they.
haha I found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bocmVZXXY8w#t=57 s

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06-07-2013, 10:29 PM
  #283
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Granted I have a few beers in me but tomorrow I am going to make a sign for the Dbacks game that says "I only came for Doan".

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06-08-2013, 12:08 AM
  #284
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Whatever. Secrets are meant to be found eventually. As long as your secrets don't involve killing, torturing or ****** people, I don't think anyone really gives a ****. And if you do, well, I'd rather you get caught.
Okay. I'm going to come around Sunday to install CCTV cameras in your house, your car and the like. Your life will be broadcasted to a bunch of people over the internet. Every single moment of it. I'm going to also disclose your shopping habits, your search history and any intimate other details that might be embarrassing. You obviously have nothing to hide, so I'm sure you have no problem with this. This will continue on forever, until you die. This program will also cover your immediate and extended family, just to be safe. You may have nothing to hide, but you may also value your constitutional rights. Resisting this sort of crap is less about hiding guilt and more about protecting those rights and the principles of the nation. If reports are to be believed, many of these programs existed pre-9/11 and did little to help us. I'm really not sure how someone can be serious when they say they don't have a problem with these programs.

It's like looking the other way while the police beat a man to death. "Well, guess he was guilty or they wouldn't have been chasing him." It wasn't you, the authorities wanted him, and him not getting due process or any of the treatment expected of an American citizen we will chalk up to him being some sort of criminal. So it's okay to just look away and not care. You don't see your rights being eroded away, or the entire foundation of the justice system with each baton strike, because it doesn't involve you. You are blind to it. Your neighbor and his family are killed when, in the middle of the night, a heavily militarized SWAT team raids the wrong house using a no knock warrant. "Oh, wow, that's terrible. What a mistake" you'll mutter, never once stopping to ask why police officers look more like soldiers, and why a traditional arrest looks more like a military assault. You don't see the foundation eroding away, because it doesn't involve you. These are things that have happened and will continue to happen in our country in the name of security. Would you feel safe or secure in either scenario?

You are rationalizing away something disturbing by transferring the guilt of it to other parties. Your rights are being torn up, and you simply accept it as much because it doesn't personally involve you. You can't possibly imagine something like that ever happening to you. You have no secrets, after all. But that's the beauty of this situation. You don't need to have secrets. In a world where there is no privacy or due process, you can be whisked away without any fuss for any reason. Maybe it's your religion, or your hair color. Who knows? We can come up with something.

I don't need to tell you how that has worked out in history for those that made such a bargain. If you aren't going to stand up for yourself, do it for your friends, your family, your kids or whatever it takes for you to throw away the apathy. There must be something you care about worth defending.

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I live in a country generally assumed to be a dictatorship. One of the Arab spring countries. I have lived through curfews and have seen the outcomes of the sort of surveillance now being revealed in the US. People here talking about curfews aren't realizing what that actually FEELS like. It isn't about having to go inside, and the practicality of that. It's about creating the feeling that everyone, everything is watching.

A few points:
1) the purpose of this surveillance from the governments point of view is to control enemies of the state. Not terrorists. People who are coalescing around ideas that would destabilize the status quo. These could be religious ideas. These could be groups like anon who are too good with tech for the governments liking. It makes it very easy to know who these people are. It also makes it very simple to control these people.

Lets say you are a college student and you get in with some people who want to stop farming practices that hurt animals. So you make a plan and go to protest these practices. You get there, and wow, the protest is huge. You never expected this, you were just goofing off. Well now everyone who was there is suspect. Even though you technically had the right to protest, you're now considered a dangerous person.

With this tech in place, the government doesn't have to put you in jail. They can do something more sinister. They can just email you a sexy picture you took with a girlfriend. Or they can email you a note saying that they can prove your dad is cheating on his taxes. Or they can threaten to get your dad fired. All you have to do, the email says, is help them catch your friends in the group. You have to report back every week, or you dad might lose his job. So you do. You turn in your friends and even though they try to keep meetings off grid, you're reporting on them to protect your dad.

2) Let's say number one goes on. The country is a weird place now. Really weird. Pretty soon, a movement springs up like occupy, except its bigger this time. People are really serious, and they are saying they want a government without this power. I guess people are realizing that it is a serious deal. You see on the news that tear gas was fired. Your friend calls you, frantic. They're shooting people. Oh my god. you never signed up for this. You say, **** it. My dad might lose his job but I won't be responsible for anyone dying. That's going too far. You refuse to report anymore. You just stop going to meetings. You stay at home, and try not to watch the news. Three days later, police come to your door and arrest you. They confiscate your computer and phones, and they beat you up a bit. No one can help you so they all just sit quietly. They know if they say anything they're next. This happened in the country I live in. It is not a joke.

3) Its hard to say how long you were in there. What you saw was horrible. Most of the time, you only heard screams. People begging to be killed. Noises you've never heard before. You, you were lucky. You got kicked every day when they threw your moldy food at you, but no one shocked you. No one used sexual violence on you, at least that you remember. There were some times they gave you pills, and you can't say for sure what happened then. To be honest, sometimes the pills were the best part of your day, because at least then you didn't feel anything. You have scars on you from the way you were treated. You learn in prison that torture is now common. But everyone who uploads videos or pictures of this torture is labeled a leaker. Its considered a threat to national security. Pretty soon, a cut you got on your leg is looking really bad. You think it's infected. There were no doctors in prison, and it was so overcrowded, who knows what got in the cut. You go to the doctor, but he refuses to see you. He knows if he does the government can see the records that he treated you. Even you calling his office prompts a visit from the local police.

You decide to go home and see your parents. Maybe they can help. This leg is getting really bad. You get to their house. They aren't home. You can't reach them no matter how hard you try. A neighbor pulls you aside, and he quickly tells you they were arrested three weeks ago and haven't been seen since. You vaguely remember mentioning to them on the phone you were going to that protest. Even your little brother isn't there.

4) Is this even really happening? You look at the news. Sports scores. Celebrity news. It's like nothing is wrong. What the hell is going on? A stranger smirks at you reading the paper. You lose it. You shout at him "**** you dude what are you laughing at can't you see I've got a ****ing wound on my leg?"

"Sorry," he says. "I just didn't know anyone read the news anymore." There haven't been any real journalists for months. They're all in jail.

Everyone walking around is scared. They can't talk to anyone else because they don't know who is reporting for the government. Hell, at one time YOU were reporting for the government. Maybe they just want their kid to get through school. Maybe they want to keep their job. Maybe they're sick and want to be able to visit the doctor. It's always a simple reason. Good people always do bad things for simple reasons.

You want to protest. You want your family back. You need help for your leg. This is way beyond anything you ever wanted. It started because you just wanted to see fair treatment in farms. Now you're basically considered a terrorist, and everyone around you might be reporting on you. You definitely can't use a phone or email. You can't get a job. You can't even trust people face to face anymore. On every corner, there are people with guns. They are as scared as you are. They just don't want to lose their jobs. They don't want to be labeled as traitors.

This all happened in the country where I live.

You want to know why revolutions happen? Because little by little by little things get worse and worse. But this thing that is happening now is big. This is the key ingredient. This allows them to know everything they need to know to accomplish the above. The fact that they are doing it is proof that they are the sort of people who might use it in the way I described. In the country I live in, they also claimed it was for the safety of the people. Same in Soviet Russia. Same in East Germany. In fact, that is always the excuse that is used to surveil everyone. But it has never ONCE proven to be the reality.

Maybe Obama won't do it. Maybe the next guy won't, or the one after him. Maybe this story isn't about you. Maybe it happens 10 or 20 years from now, when a big war is happening, or after another big attack. Maybe it's about your daughter or your son. We just don't know yet. But what we do know is that right now, in this moment we have a choice. Are we okay with this, or not? Do we want this power to exist, or not?

You know for me, the reason I'm upset is that I grew up in school saying the pledge of allegiance. I was taught that the United States meant "liberty and justice for all." You get older, you learn that in this country we define that phrase based on the constitution. That's what tells us what liberty is and what justice is. Well, the government just violated that ideal. So if they aren't standing for liberty and justice anymore, what are they standing for? Safety?

Ask yourself a question. In the story I told above, does anyone sound safe?
I didn't make anything up. These things happened to people I know. We used to think it couldn't happen in America. But guess what? It's starting to happen.

I actually get really upset when people say "I don't have anything to hide. Let them read everything." People saying that have no idea what they are bringing down on their own heads. They are naive, and we need to listen to people in other countries who are clearly telling us that this is a horrible horrible sign and it is time to stand up and say no.

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06-08-2013, 07:00 AM
  #285
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So...anyone have any thoughts on PRISM? I can't say I'm surprised but still it's pretty disheartening. Post 9/11 U.S. is becoming more and more frightening and not because of the terrorist threat.
Yeah. And I fear it will only get worse and worse! The spying on its citizens just shows how crazy and unsafe our country has become. And it is tyranny like this as to why we have the 2nd amendment in the first place. To protect ourselves and to be safe in our own person.

All I can say is bring it on!

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06-08-2013, 06:49 PM
  #286
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One thing I hope can come out of this is that people will stop with the asinine lefty/righty attacks on each other. It's been insanely hostile over the past decade and it really needs to stop. We're ALL citizens and need to respect each other even when we don't agree. If PRISM isn't a bi-partisan issue, I sure as hell don't know what is!!!


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First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

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06-08-2013, 06:57 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by doaner View Post
Yeah. And I fear it will only get worse and worse! The spying on its citizens just shows how crazy and unsafe our country has become. And it is tyranny like this as to why we have the 2nd amendment in the first place. To protect ourselves and to be safe in our own person.

All I can say is bring it on!
I do wonder if this new information will cause some people to look at gun control a bit differently now. Suddenly a well-armed populace seems fairly prudent.

I'm happy to hear where you stand though I worry your fellow officers may not be in the same camp. I mean in history all these crackdowns are done by military and/or police which is something I've never understood, how could you turn on your fellow citizens like that?! I have a couple of friends who are cops here in Phoenix and while I hate to admit it, I worry they could be persuaded to act against the general population. Indoctrination is a powerful thing!

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06-08-2013, 07:08 PM
  #288
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I do wonder if this new information will cause some people to look at gun control a bit differently now. Suddenly a well-armed populace seems fairly prudent.

I'm happy to hear where you stand though I worry your fellow officers may not be in the same camp. I mean in history all these crackdowns are done by military and/or police which is something I've never understood, how could you turn on your fellow citizens like that?! I have a couple of friends who are cops here in Phoenix and while I hate to admit it, I worry they could be persuaded to act against the general population. Indoctrination is a powerful thing!
Yeah. I'm not gonna lie. A year ago, I would have been mad as sin, since I was "born" a Rep. But as I have pulled my head from the sand and put on my Lib thinking cap, I have seen the world for the first time with a new perspective.

Indoctrination is HUGE! And I fear all the min getting going on as of late is a precursor to what's to come! Everyone I know that I work with is fed up with where we are and directions we are going. I can only speak for myself and my family, but it's pretty interesting to see what is falling into place.

My family is ready...

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06-09-2013, 12:52 PM
  #289
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If you have selfish ignorant citizens, you're going to have selfish ignorant leaders -- George Carlin
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If everything is the fault of the politicans, then where are all the bright people of conscious to step in? Save the nation? And lead the way? We don't have people like that is this country! Everyone is out at the mall. -- George Carlin
Or more focused with what famous people are doing with their lives and it is not needed unless they are getting in trouble with the law or they have passed on. Or go around living life with the entitlement mentality.

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06-09-2013, 01:08 PM
  #290
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Yeah. I'm not gonna lie. A year ago, I would have been mad as sin, since I was "born" a Rep. But as I have pulled my head from the sand and put on my Lib thinking cap, I have seen the world for the first time with a new perspective.
How did your fellow officers feel about the Dorner situation? "Hell yeah, the cop killer is dead!" or "He didn't get due process, damn shame" ? Genuinely curious.

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06-09-2013, 01:22 PM
  #291
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How did your fellow officers feel about the Dorner situation? "Hell yeah, the cop killer is dead!" or "He didn't get due process, damn shame" ? Genuinely curious.
I'm not really sure. I think I was on vacation when all that happened. I'm still a bit suspicious about The circumstances behind it all. Just seems a bit strange to me. Why he would fly off the handle like that. I wasn't surprised by the turnout, though.

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06-09-2013, 04:38 PM
  #292
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How did your fellow officers feel about the Dorner situation? "Hell yeah, the cop killer is dead!" or "He didn't get due process, damn shame" ? Genuinely curious.
It's sad but I just can't imagine police officers (not all but definitely the majority) caring about due process.

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06-10-2013, 06:10 PM
  #293
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Un****ing real!!!!!

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?se...rld&id=9133744

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06-10-2013, 07:14 PM
  #294
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I couldn't be less surprised (no pun intended) by this story, AZ hands out DUI's like they're candy. Our government doesn't really care about safety, they just want the money and they only get away with it because people still believe that a few drinks and a car equals death. That very notion is absolutely ridiculous. I'm certainly not advocating that it's ok to get drunk (.08 is not "drunk") and get behind the wheel but we really need to stop being so prude. Yes it is important to keep drunk drivers off our roads but it's also time to realize that currently AZ casts a net that is 10x wider than it should be.

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06-10-2013, 07:48 PM
  #295
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Shame is that the $500,000 (or less, I hope he settles) doesn't come our of the over zealous cop's pocket or the governor's pocket or Sheriff Joe's pocket ... it'll be $20 from every taxpayer in Surprise. No punishment for the cop (remember, they're all heroes) or the city ... less money for roads and schools and lowering property taxes ... punishment for us.

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06-10-2013, 08:07 PM
  #296
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Shame is that the $500,000 (or less, I hope he settles) doesn't come our of the over zealous cop's pocket or the governor's pocket or Sheriff Joe's pocket ... it'll be $20 from every taxpayer in Surprise. No punishment for the cop (remember, they're all heroes) or the city ... less money for roads and schools and lowering property taxes ... punishment for us.
Tell us how you really feel ck!

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06-10-2013, 08:42 PM
  #297
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Shame is that the $500,000 (or less, I hope he settles) doesn't come our of the over zealous cop's pocket or the governor's pocket or Sheriff Joe's pocket ... it'll be $20 from every taxpayer in Surprise. No punishment for the cop (remember, they're all heroes) or the city ... less money for roads and schools and lowering property taxes ... punishment for us
Some are heroes, some are pieces of **** and most are neither. What really annoys me about people addressing all police (same with firefighters and military) like they are heroes is they completely diminish those who really are. There are cops that have performed some truly courageous and selfless acts and deserve to have them labeled as heroic. We do them a disservice by lumping them in with those who have yet to do anything or far worse with those are who are just dirtbags with a badge.

Sorry that was a tangent...anyway, I agree that it sucks it's going to be paid for by the people of Surprise but maybe this will cause people to start to re-evaluate these draconian DUI laws. There is a lot of room for moderation but right now AZ is far too harsh on drinking and driving.


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06-10-2013, 09:44 PM
  #298
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Oddly enough, I was on his side until this:

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"This is a case of D-W-B, driving while black," said Thornton's attorney Marc Victor.

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06-11-2013, 12:21 AM
  #299
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Tell us how you really feel ck!
Get me started, playa. Get me started. I'm drinking and jogging (hashing) tonight, so all bets are off.

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06-11-2013, 12:25 AM
  #300
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To bring it in here regarding Mark, I am all for people getting what they deserve but Tent City hit around 25 degrees this year and will hit 120 this summer. That's an extreme environment in my opinion.

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