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Old
06-12-2013, 03:29 PM
  #351
Sinurgy
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Originally Posted by pacerhimself View Post
I agree with the general consensus that the PS4 looks better overall, but people are dumping on the Xbox One way more than I can possibly understand (IE, declaring it dead 5 months before it's even released).
It's just heard mentality, it'll die down and eventually people will apply critical thought to both consoles.

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06-12-2013, 03:31 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Sinurgy View Post
It's just heard mentality, it'll die down and eventually people will apply critical thought to both consoles.
What are the positives of the Xbox One over the PS4? I'd love to hear it. Only catch is you can't mention Kinect or exclusive titles.

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06-12-2013, 03:41 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
The Wii is/was several magnitudes behind the other two, which is why there were so few crossover titles. Games are absolutely made for the lowest common denominator. You're more intelligent than that, come on.
Yet there were crossover titles and those titles look awesome on 360/PS3 but did not on Wii. The Wii is clearly the lowest common denominator so why did the 360/PS3 versions look good? I'll tell you why, because the games were not coded to the lowest common denominator.

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The PS3 brings more power to the party. You'd have to be technologically illiterate to argue otherwise. The same is true for the PS4 vs Xbone.
And you'd have to be just plain illiterate to continue to argue against people that YOU originally quoted who said, and I repeat...

Quote:
Realistically, we wouldn’t be surprised if games on the Xbox 720 and PS4, just like the current generation, look very similar.
I'm not sure what you don't understand there but you can throw out as many specs as you want, most people in the know will agree that the difference will likely be negligible.

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06-12-2013, 03:45 PM
  #354
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What are the positives of the Xbox One over the PS4? I'd love to hear it. Only catch is you can't mention Kinect or exclusive titles.
Now that makes no sense, why would you compare the 2 but not mention Kinect and especially exclusive titles?

If you want to have a REAL discussion about both consoles I'd love to because I'm genuinely curious how this will all play out but you have to agree to drop the pissing contest attitude.

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06-12-2013, 03:57 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Sinurgy View Post
Yet there were crossover titles and those titles look awesome on 360/PS3 but did not on Wii. The Wii is clearly the lowest common denominator so why did the 360/PS3 versions look good? I'll tell you why, because the games were not coded to the lowest common denominator. I.e. you'll never admit it but you're wrong
I'm not 'wrong'. The Wii hardware is so far off where the PS3 and 360 are that it's not worth mentioning in the same breath. You got a bunch of token crossover titles that did nothing but look terrible. For most developers, the Wii wasn't even a consideration. For others, it was a cash grab. You really going to buy Call of Duty on Wii? The 360 and PS3 share the most commonality when it comes to specs, with the 360 being the lesser of the two. Games were built with the 360's specs in mind and then ported over to the PS3 architecture. Whether or not they bothered to take advantage of the extra power was up to the developer.

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I'm not sure what you don't understand there but you can throw out as many specs as you want, most people in the know will agree that the difference will likely be negligible.
I should know better than to argue over graphics with someone who buys consoles. The PS4 is bringing a lot more throughput to the table. Whether or not devs bother to take advantage of that is up to them. The extra 2 gigs of faster RAM can be used to cut down on loading times or to run higher res textures. There's all sorts of options there that aren't available on the Xbone. Seeing as how both are x86 now, the differences will actually be more pronounced. It will be apples to apples for the first time.

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Now that makes no sense, why would you compare the 2 but not mention Kinect and especially exclusive titles?
Games are a personal preference. Leave out the Eye and Kinect, so you can have an apples to apples comparison. Sell me and the others here on it. What's the upside? The Kinect does absolutely nothing for most games, and Devs have been openly trashing it. Sony decided that it wasn't worth it to force the Eye on PS4 users, hence the cheaper price. They're gimmicky addons that are not worth talking about, unless you're the type of person who is fascinated by Siri on iPhones. That the damn thing can't be turned off and is required for the Xbox to function is going to go down as one of the dumbest decisions in gaming history.

People can like the PS4 without having a 'heard mentality' or 'marching orders.' You keep trying to label me a fanboy when I've told you I'm a PC user first and foremost. Sony is bringing the noise with a cheaper, more powerful box. I may buy a total of five games for the entire systems lifetime, with most of those being exclusives. The rest of the time it will sit there and do Netflix or Blurays. Why the **** would I buy the lesser, more expensive system and support Microsoft's ******** policies?

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06-12-2013, 04:38 PM
  #356
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I'm not 'wrong'. The Wii hardware is so far off where the PS3 and 360 are that it's not worth mentioning in the same breath. You got a bunch of token crossover titles that did nothing but look terrible. For most developers, the Wii wasn't even a consideration. For others, it was a cash grab. You really going to buy Call of Duty on Wii? The 360 and PS3 share the most commonality when it comes to specs, with the 360 being the lesser of the two. Games were built with the 360's specs in mind and then ported over to the PS3 architecture. Whether or not they bothered to take advantage of the extra power was up to the developer.
haha yes, you are wrong and blatantly. You're just back tracking now and attempting to re-frame the argument. You said games are developed for the lowest common denominator, well when a game is built for Wii/360/PS3 the LCD is definitely the Wii. Yet the games on the PS3 and 360 look nothing like the Wii. You can't and won't admit it but your original assertion is flat out wrong.

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I should know better than to argue over graphics with someone who buys consoles.
aaaahahaha ok now this is getting hilarious. I know the PC master race plays well with the kiddies and technology challenged adults but you're talking to someone who has developed, tested and automated software for 15 years. I've built several PC's and that includes my most recent one that would almost certainly mop the floor with most people's "gaming PC". In short, get the hell out of here with that silly statement.

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Originally Posted by XX View Post
The PS4 is bringing a lot more throughput to the table. Whether or not devs bother to take advantage of that is up to them. The extra 2 gigs of faster RAM can be used to cut down on loading times or to run higher res textures. There's all sorts of options there that aren't available on the Xbone. Seeing as how both are x86 now, the differences will actually be more pronounced. It will be apples to apples for the first time.
lol...you just can't stand this can you. Your own source totally debunking you!! Here I'm going to post it again just because I get a kick out watching you attempt to squirm out of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by XX's source on console graphics
Realistically, we wouldn’t be surprised if games on the Xbox 720 and PS4, just like the current generation, look very similar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by XX View Post
Games are a personal preference. Leave out the Eye and Kinect, so you can have an apples to apples comparison. Sell me and the others here on it. What's the upside? The Kinect does absolutely nothing for most games, and Devs have been openly trashing it. Sony decided that it wasn't worth it to force the Eye on PS4 users, hence the cheaper price. They're gimmicky addons that are not worth talking about, unless you're the type of person who is fascinated by Siri on iPhones. That the damn thing can't be turned off and is required for the Xbox to function is going to go down as one of the dumbest decisions in gaming history.
It makes absolutely no sense to leave out the Kinect 2 when talking about the Xbox One. It COMES with it, therefor it is very relevant. I would agree that thus far the Kinect hasn't produced much that is noteworthy unless you're really into dance games but that does not mean Kinect 2, which is far more advanced, won't be different. At this point who knows, that's why I'm taking a wait and see approach instead of going the knee-jerk route.

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Originally Posted by XX View Post
People can like the PS4 without having a 'heard mentality' or 'marching orders.' You keep trying to label me a fanboy when I've told you I'm a PC user first and foremost. Sony is bringing the noise with a cheaper, more powerful box. I may buy a total of five games for the entire systems lifetime, with most of those being exclusives. The rest of the time it will sit there and do Netflix or Blurays. Why the **** would I buy the lesser, more expensive system and support Microsoft's ******** policies?
Of course they can but you know as well as I do the recent Sony cheerleading is very much herd mentality. It's all in response to E3 which is why this discussion is even occurring. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Sony is garnering praise for what they're not doing instead of what they are doing. And I'm labeling you a fanboy because of your comments about how PS3 is now outselling 360 (who cares?), calling Xbox One "XBone" and accusing me being ******** because people are dogging on Xbox. You say you're not a fanboy but you sure do talk like one.

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06-12-2013, 04:40 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
That the damn thing can't be turned off and is required for the Xbox to function is going to go down as one of the dumbest decisions in gaming history.
New patents filed my MSFT seem to explain that move. The new Kinect has the ability to know how many people are watching the screen, and the approximate age of each viewer. The patents cover things like pay-per-viewer, and movie rating enforcement.

If MSFT can tell movie studios they are able to bring movie-theater type revenue by selling tickets for theater releases based on how many people watch content, they are now a direct competitor to traditional movie theaters. They are offering millions of additional seats for identical revenue, with very little cost.

Looking at it that way, the Kinect requirement makes a lot of sense. I could very well imagine X Box One as being the first device to offer ALL theater releases with no delay, at $ 5 to $ 10 per viewer.


Last edited by zz: 06-12-2013 at 05:09 PM.
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06-12-2013, 04:52 PM
  #358
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Sooo...while I keep arguing with XX (that's what we do), anyone interested in a real discussion on the two consoles?

From a software industry standpoint, here is what I'm curious about. The DRM "features" that are in Xbox One are most certainly developer/publisher driven. These are not Microsoft's ideas, this is their attempt to appease big name developers and publishers in hopes of gaining favor amongst them. Sony is taking the opposite approach, they're hoping that by leaving out DRM they will sell far more consoles than Microsoft thus forcing developers and publishers to come to them because they have the install base. It's two very different approaches and I'm not sure which one is going to work.

I think it's going to come down to how serious developers/publishers are about DRM. If they're very serious, they're going to implement it no matter which console you choose. After all, what Sony has said is that THEY are not going to enforce DRM but if the makers of the game want to, they certainly can. Well, it's the makers of the games that want DRM, no one else. So will they (devs/pubs) purposely cripple the PS4 experience or will they listen to the people? That's the million dollar question. Microsoft is basically saying devs/pubs are going to enforce DRM one way or the other, we might as well make it as elegant (in theory) as possible.

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06-12-2013, 05:01 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Sinurgy View Post
haha yes, you are wrong and blatantly. You're just back tracking now and attempting to re-frame the argument. You said games are developed for the lowest common denominator, well when a game is built for Wii/360/PS3 the LCD is definitely the Wii. Yet the games on the PS3 and 360 look nothing like the Wii. You can't and won't admit it but your original assertion is flat out wrong.
I'm not backtracking. I think you are misunderstanding or confused about what we are talking about. I don't even think it has sunk in that your argument bolsters mine. If games are not programmed commonly, then Sony's hardware advantage will be a big deal. Or they are, and the games will look similar. You keep trying to make the Wii argument happen. It's not going to happen. It's like arguing that a title that also gets released on the 3DS to cash in on the brand value of the title is somehow part of the lowest common denominator equation.

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I've built several PC's and that includes my most recent one that would almost certainly mop the floor with most people's "gaming PC". In short, get the hell out of here with that silly statement.
You sure don't act the part. In fact, you're being quite childish and petty about this whole thing. More "lols" and "hahas" than a middle schooler on AIM circa ten years ago. It's not flattering nor is it helping your point get across.

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lol...you just can't stand this can you. Your own source totally debunking you!! Here I'm going to post it again just because I get a kick out watching you attempt to squirm out of it.
How am I squirming? You are insisting that an article's opinion that games will look similar somehow invalidates the fact that the hardware is fundamentally different. Your welcome to that uhm.. viewpoint.

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Originally Posted by Sinurgy View Post
It makes absolutely no sense to leave out the Kinect 2 when talking about the Xbox One. It COMES with it, therefor it is very relevant. I would agree that thus far the Kinect hasn't produced much that is noteworthy unless you're really into dance games but that does not mean Kinect 2, which is far more advanced, won't be different. At this point who knows, that's why I'm taking a wait and see approach instead of going the knee-jerk route.
MS didn't show a single Kinect game at their presser. They've been oddly silent about the whole thing. Which makes their decision to include it even more odd. And no, we can have a fair comparison without bringing in the silly peripherals. That you've agreed to pay $100 extra for something that in all likelihood won't contribute to your experience is between you and Microsoft.

The PS Eye isn't exactly chopped liver. It has two cameras instead of one, which lends itself well to AR. Check out this neat tech demo:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinurgy View Post
Of course they can but you know as well as I do the recent Sony cheerleading is very much herd mentality. It's all in response to E3 which is why this discussion is even occurring. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Sony is garnering praise for what they're not doing instead of what they are doing. And I'm labeling you a fanboy because of your comments about how PS3 is now outselling 360 (who cares?), calling Xbox One "XBone" and accusing me being ******** because people are dogging on Xbox. You say you're not a fanboy but you sure do talk like one.
You're throwing out label after label. Anyone who supports Sony is a cheerleader? Is following the herd? Of course it's in response to E3. That's where both companies announced their pricing and their policies. Microsoft has adopted policies that are decidedly anti-consumer, so of course Sony is getting praise for not following down the same path. If iTunes came out and said that all downloads are now $5, locked to your device and only come with 10 plays, services that didn't follow would rightfully be praised. Sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something, especially if that something causes a visceral reaction in a large part of your consumer base. That the PS3 is outselling the Xbox is an important history lesson. Despite a much weaker launch and higher price, Sony eventually found traction. What can they do when they have all the momentum? Xbone is one word, and feels less awkward than XBO. I don't know if ******** is the right term, but you're certainly unsettled over the fact that a large number of people are digging the PS4 now. If it's not coming from some attempt to be edgy or feel superior to the 'herd' then it's just stupid and petty.

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Originally Posted by Sinurgy View Post
The DRM "features" that are in Xbox One are most certainly developer/publisher driven.
Industry sources say otherwise.

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06-12-2013, 05:07 PM
  #360
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PS4 looks to me like a gamer's console. Impressive specs for sure, on paper its hardware seems significantly superior to X Box One. Whether this translates in better games remains to be seen. This, however, seems to me like a risky strategy. I know it's a big market, but you're competing with the cheap, gimmicky Wii that a lot of families and smaller kids are happy with, and hard-core games who still swear by custom PCs. (Personally, regardless of hardware specs, when it comes to 3D shooters you simply cannot match the aiming accuracy provided by a mouse / keyboard combo).

X Box One is the ultimate do-it-all living room device, plugged into your MSFT ecosystem. Now don't get me wrong, I am NOT a MSFT fan boy. I do use some of their products, but I have ditched my Windows Phone for Android, and haven't been sold on Surface. I'm still running Win 7 on my PC. But I do know users who completely bought in to the Win 8 / Phone 8 / Surface ecosystem and use it for everything - file sync, preference sync, SkyDrive, Zune Music, etc etc... These people have an X-Box 360, and cannot wait for an X Box One. The ability to literally browse the web on your Surface and transfer that to your TV with a simple swipe is quite appealing. By comparison, Sony has zero ecosystem. PS4 is very much of a standalone device.

Who's going to win? I wish I knew. Apple was the ecosystem master for years, but that strategy ended up losing momentum to Android / Amazon / Roku mixed setups. I personally prefer storing my digital content on Amazon and play it on any device rather than be prisoner of one brand for everything. But I do know it's a bit of a geeky approach, and most of my non-geek friends don't want to deal with it.

So... I don't know. Interesting times though. The living room is definitely the next big thing to get disrupted. We've been waiting for this for years, but I think it;s finally coming.

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06-12-2013, 05:14 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by OEL View Post
But I do know users who completely bought in to the Win 8 / Phone 8 / Surface ecosystem and use it for everything - file sync, preference sync, SkyDrive, Zune Music, etc etc... These people have an X-Box 360, and cannot wait for an X Box One. The ability to literally browse the web on your Surface and transfer that to your TV with a simple swipe is quite appealing.
For me and really the problem for MS is that those products represent a series of hoops you must jump through to get to that great experience. Windows 8 isn't a killer product. Phone 8 has competitors that are compelling, so it's struggling. Surface has tons of competitors too. So to get that great ecosystem experience, you'd need to somehow fall in love with all of those products. SmartGlass and all that is great, but the XBO shouldn't count on a small group of MS users to anchor their sales. At the end of the day, it's about games and the gameplay. Microsoft wants to beat Apple and be the next big livingroom thing like you said. It's just a damn shame they adopted the policies they did. I could look past the horrible HTPC kitbash design and the slightly slower specs if they just left the gaming model alone.

Everyone wants to be Steam. Console users are not used to that sort of platform, so Microsoft tried to drag them there. So far, the market is saying no. Maybe XBO is ahead of its time.

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06-12-2013, 05:17 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by Sinurgy View Post
Sooo...while I keep arguing with XX (that's what we do), anyone interested in a real discussion on the two consoles?

From a software industry standpoint, here is what I'm curious about. The DRM "features" that are in Xbox One are most certainly developer/publisher driven. These are not Microsoft's ideas, this is their attempt to appease big name developers and publishers in hopes of gaining favor amongst them. Sony is taking the opposite approach, they're hoping that by leaving out DRM they will sell far more consoles than Microsoft thus forcing developers and publishers to come to them because they have the install base. It's two very different approaches and I'm not sure which one is going to work.

I think it's going to come down to how serious developers/publishers are about DRM. If they're very serious, they're going to implement it no matter which console you choose. After all, what Sony has said is that THEY are not going to enforce DRM but if the makers of the game want to, they certainly can. Well, it's the makers of the games that want DRM, no one else. So will they (devs/pubs) purposely cripple the PS4 experience or will they listen to the people? That's the million dollar question. Microsoft is basically saying devs/pubs are going to enforce DRM one way or the other, we might as well make it as elegant (in theory) as possible.
I own the original Xbox and the 360 and I've got to say, I'm very unhappy about DRM, since I like to rent games and borrow games from my friends.

I'll probably wait 6 months to see how both consoles play out in terms of features and exclusives, and to see if PS4 devs enforce DRM, before I decide which console to buy.

I will say this though, I'm so opposed to DRM that I can't really imagine buying Xbox1, especially if PS4 is DRM free, unless some innovative killer app game is released for XB1 that is a must-have exclusive, similar to how the original Halo was for the first Xbox in 2001. I'm not going to jump down Microsoft's throat and write the system off before it's even released, but as an Xbox owner I must say I'm heavily leaning towards getting a PS4 as of right now.

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06-12-2013, 05:54 PM
  #363
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I'm not backtracking. I think you are misunderstanding or confused about what we are talking about. I don't even think it has sunk in that your argument bolsters mine. If games are not programmed commonly, then Sony's hardware advantage will be a big deal. Or they are, and the games will look similar. You keep trying to make the Wii argument happen. It's not going to happen. It's like arguing that a title that also gets released on the 3DS to cash in on the brand value of the title is somehow part of the lowest common denominator equation.
You keep swinging from that corner you backed yourself into but it's not going to change anything. Your assertion is wrong whether you want to admit it or not (you won't).

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You sure don't act the part. In fact, you're being quite childish and petty about this whole thing. More "lols" and "hahas" than a middle schooler on AIM circa ten years ago. It's not flattering nor is it helping your point get across.
Well that's the difference here isn't it, I'm not attempting to act a part. As for getting my point across, c'mon, do you even know yourself?! There is no way in hell I'll get any point across to you because one thing you've consistently displayed is that you already know everything. So it's really just for lulz and attempting to help others understand your loudness does not equal correctness.

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How am I squirming? You are insisting that an article's opinion that games will look similar somehow invalidates the fact that the hardware is fundamentally different. Your welcome to that uhm.. viewpoint.
You stated the PS4 would boast %50 more graphics power and you used a source to back up that claim. Well that same source you used stated clearly they do not expect there to be much graphical difference between the two machines. So unless your original point was just to tout some spec that has little tangible bearing on the final product, your own source completely undermined your original point.

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Originally Posted by XX View Post
MS didn't show a single Kinect game at their presser. They've been oddly silent about the whole thing. Which makes their decision to include it even more odd. And no, we can have a fair comparison without bringing in the silly peripherals. That you've agreed to pay $100 extra for something that in all likelihood won't contribute to your experience is between you and Microsoft.
I agree that game wise the Kinect 2 is still very much unknown. As an entertainment device, it has a lot of abilities, some of which are very impressive. You may not care about them but a lot of people may. Again it remains to be seen but writing off the Kinect 2 like it's no different than the Kinect 1 is silly. And no you can't leave it out of the discussion because it comes with the Xbox One. That would be like me saying you're not allowed to consider Sony's price point because it doesn't come with the Eye.

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The PS Eye isn't exactly chopped liver. It has two cameras instead of one, which lends itself well to AR. Check out this neat tech demo:
Interesting you would post that. You've railed against those technologies as gimmicky and pointless and how they don't belong in the discussion but now you're suddenly touting the Eye's technical prowess. It really seems like you've got yourself a conclusion and you're busy looking for premises to support it. Anyway, I would agree the PS Eye is no slouch, if they can come up with some cool uses for it that would be awesome.

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Originally Posted by XX View Post
You're throwing out label after label. Anyone who supports Sony is a cheerleader? Is following the herd? Of course it's in response to E3. That's where both companies announced their pricing and their policies. Microsoft has adopted policies that are decidedly anti-consumer, so of course Sony is getting praise for not following down the same path. If iTunes came out and said that all downloads are now $5, locked to your device and only come with 10 plays, services that didn't follow would rightfully be praised. Sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something, especially if that something causes a visceral reaction in a large part of your consumer base. That the PS3 is outselling the Xbox is an important history lesson. Despite a much weaker launch and higher price, Sony eventually found traction. What can they do when they have all the momentum? Xbone is one word, and feels less awkward than XBO. I don't know if ******** is the right term, but you're certainly unsettled over the fact that a large number of people are digging the PS4 now. If it's not coming from some attempt to be edgy or feel superior to the 'herd' then it's just stupid and petty.
I never said anyone who supports Sony is a cheerleader. However, someone who is so vehemently opposed to Xbox and so passionately claims PS4 superiority is most definitely a cheerleader. If you were truly unbiased, you wouldn't be so polarizing. The opposite of love is not hate, it's apathy and you're showing anything but apathy.

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Industry sources say otherwise.
Please elaborate.


Last edited by Sinurgy: 06-12-2013 at 06:03 PM.
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06-12-2013, 06:06 PM
  #364
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For me and really the problem for MS is that those products represent a series of hoops you must jump through to get to that great experience. Windows 8 isn't a killer product. Phone 8 has competitors that are compelling, so it's struggling. Surface has tons of competitors too. So to get that great ecosystem experience, you'd need to somehow fall in love with all of those products. SmartGlass and all that is great, but the XBO shouldn't count on a small group of MS users to anchor their sales. At the end of the day, it's about games and the gameplay. Microsoft wants to beat Apple and be the next big livingroom thing like you said. It's just a damn shame they adopted the policies they did. I could look past the horrible HTPC kitbash design and the slightly slower specs if they just left the gaming model alone.

Everyone wants to be Steam. Console users are not used to that sort of platform, so Microsoft tried to drag them there. So far, the market is saying no. Maybe XBO is ahead of its time.
It's a fair statement. I don't know whether they'll succeed. This is MSFT's last shot at relevance I think. The X Box 360 is their last consumer success. Fail here, and the only thing left is the enterprise market and legacy software support. Oracle, Sun, IBM and SAP are still alive, but I don't know how 'well' they are doing.

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06-12-2013, 06:11 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
Everyone wants to be Steam. Console users are not used to that sort of platform, so Microsoft tried to drag them there. So far, the market is saying no. Maybe XBO is ahead of its time.
That is exactly it only MS isn't being evil or whatever, they're just trying to woo the big devs/publishers. They're saying...hey look at me, if you build amazing games for our system you'll make more money because our built in DRM will protect you more against various forms of piracy and you won't have to manage any of it yourself. When those same devs/pubs have to put out games for Sony, they either have to accept piracy (I'm using the term loosely but I think you know what I mean) or you have to implement your own system (e.g. single use codes) and manage it yourself. What gamers are hoping, is that the devs/pubs won't want to do this so they'll just not implement anything and people can buy/sell/trade games any way they want without restriction. I think those people are in for a big surprise.

As for XBO being ahead of its time, this kind of reminds me of the first Xbox. MS was roasted pretty good for requiring a broadband connection for the original Xbox and not supporting dial-up whatsoever (remember this was 2001). Their decision did result in the much better experience. I remember playing in online 2K hockey leagues back when most people still didn't play online anything and it was only possible because you were guaranteed to be matched against someone with broadband, not some ****** dial-up connection.

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06-12-2013, 06:13 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by CC96 View Post
I own the original Xbox and the 360 and I've got to say, I'm very unhappy about DRM, since I like to rent games and borrow games from my friends.

I'll probably wait 6 months to see how both consoles play out in terms of features and exclusives, and to see if PS4 devs enforce DRM, before I decide which console to buy.

I will say this though, I'm so opposed to DRM that I can't really imagine buying Xbox1, especially if PS4 is DRM free, unless some innovative killer app game is released for XB1 that is a must-have exclusive, similar to how the original Halo was for the first Xbox in 2001. I'm not going to jump down Microsoft's throat and write the system off before it's even released, but as an Xbox owner I must say I'm heavily leaning towards getting a PS4 as of right now.
The game resale/rental/lending business is due for disruption, the same way CD copies & DVD rentals are dying. Online delivery of DRM content for gaming is unavoidable. It will happen. iTunes and Amazon MP3 didn't succeed simply because Napster got shut down - BitTorrent et al are still around and well. Instead, the market found the right balance of price and convenience for most people to spend money rather than deal with the hassle of pirated downloads and disc copies.

Otherwise, how do you explain the amount of revenue generated by Netflix / Hulu / Amazon / iTunes when the same movies / shows are available for free download through other means?

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06-12-2013, 06:20 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by OEL View Post
Otherwise, how do you explain the amount of revenue generated by Netflix / Hulu / Amazon / iTunes when the same movies / shows are available for free download through other means?
Those services offer competitive pricing and great service. There's been zero indication from Microsoft that they intend to discount games heavily to compensate for what they are trying to do. If you remove resale, $30 games actually make a lot of business sense. We have movies that cost $200 million, yet tickets are only ever $15. You can't raise the threshold of what it costs to go see a movie because attendance suffers. Games are the same way. The success of indie titles and places that sell discounted games like Steam shows that, if anything, games are overpriced. Being digital only lets you play around with sales and prices without angering contractual stakeholders. Best Buy won't be calling you up demanding to know why you're selling a SKU they just ordered 200k of for half price on your digital store.

People don't give two ***** about DRM when the product costs $5 or $10. I don't know if MS has that ace up their sleeve. It looks doubtful, given comments by developers. MS paying Spike TV to not show Sony's conference, and then paying developers to not show or talk about PS4 versions of their games is a fearful move.

This doesn't help either:


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06-12-2013, 06:28 PM
  #368
Sinurgy
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Originally Posted by OEL View Post
It's a fair statement. I don't know whether they'll succeed. This is MSFT's last shot at relevance I think. The X Box 360 is their last consumer success. Fail here, and the only thing left is the enterprise market and legacy software support. Oracle, Sun, IBM and SAP are still alive, but I don't know how 'well' they are doing.
If they want to come even close to their 90's relevance you're spot on but they are still relevant beyond just enterprise software. I admittedly don't know the numbers but I venture to guess Windows is still by far the most used OS on the planet. That said, unless the Xbox One is a success, they're at best treading water. I hate using such a marketing term but I think MS's biggest problem is mindshare. The have consistently shown the inability to capture any and the E3 fiasco is just another example of that.

Basically MS badly needs a new marketing department! I mean c'mon, who seriously though this was the perfect commercial for the target market of the Surface Pro?!?!

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06-12-2013, 06:33 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
Those services offer competitive pricing and great service. There's been zero indication from Microsoft that they intend to discount games heavily to compensate for what they are trying to do. If you remove resale, $30 games actually make a lot of business sense. We have movies that cost $200 million, yet tickets are only ever $15. You can't raise the threshold of what it costs to go see a movie because attendance suffers. Games are the same way. The success of indie titles and places that sell discounted games like Steam shows that, if anything, games are overpriced. Being digital only lets you play around with sales and prices without angering contractual stakeholders. Best Buy won't be calling you up demanding to know why you're selling a SKU they just ordered 200k of for half price on your digital store.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XX View Post
People don't give two ***** about DRM when the product costs $5 or $10.
Yes. However, this seems to be a moving target. It started with 99c songs. People got used to that. It moved to $ 3.99 pay-per-view movies. Now there seems to be a market for $ 10 to $ 15 sales of digital content, as illustrated by Amazon's larger sale library than rental, and services like Vudu. Is the idea of $ 25 to $ 30 DRM games delivered online far-fetch? Market trends suggest otherwise.

In the end, it'll be a repeat of a familiar pattern: cut the brick-and-mortar retail outlet, reduce delivery costs, reduce sale price, increase market share, and make the same or more money.

The major difference between music / movie consumption and games is the market size. I don't know how much more it can grow, but it is definitely smaller.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XX View Post
Best Buy won't be calling you up demanding to know why you're selling a SKU they just ordered 200k of for half price on your digital store.
Eh, the same argument could have been said about DVDs. in the end, it didn't matter.

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Originally Posted by XX View Post
This doesn't help either:
Meh, this merely states that disconnected devices are dead. Hard to argue that point.

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06-12-2013, 06:37 PM
  #370
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Originally Posted by Sinurgy View Post
If they want to come even close to their 90's relevance you're spot on but they are still relevant beyond just enterprise software. I admittedly don't know the numbers but I venture to guess Windows is still by far the most used OS on the planet. That said, unless the Xbox One is a success, they're at best treading water. I hate using such a marketing term but I think MS's biggest problem is mindshare. The have consistently shown the inability to capture any and the E3 fiasco is just another example of that.

Basically MS badly needs a new marketing department! I mean c'mon, who seriously though this was the perfect commercial for the target market of the Surface Pro?!?!
No kidding.

The ONLY thing that's sold me on Win 8, big time, are laptops with touch screens (I don't like tablets). At first it seemed gimmicky, but you start developing habits of touching your laptop screen for certain tasks like consuming content. For this type of thing, Win 8 is really, really awesome. Put Win RT on one big touch screen, and Desktop on 2 others, it's a great setup.

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06-12-2013, 06:59 PM
  #371
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Opposite for me, OEL. I bought a Macbook recently and I like it so much better than my Windows desktop.

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06-12-2013, 07:01 PM
  #372
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Originally Posted by Rundblad View Post
Opposite for me, OEL. I bought a Macbook recently and I like it so much better than my Windows desktop.
PLEASE let's not get this into a Mac / Windows fanboy battle. I might throw up. Nobody's talking about Apple here.

EDIT: Despite a very disappointing launch, Win 8 has gained a 4.27 OS market share. That's 60% of the ENTIRE OS X user base in a little over 6 months. OS X doesn't matter, never has. iOS is the only relevant Apple OS outside of an Apple store.


Last edited by zz: 06-12-2013 at 07:09 PM.
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06-12-2013, 09:52 PM
  #373
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Given my video game playing history, I'm certainly no fanboy to any single product as I have played several different consoles in the past and had a long period of time where I didn't own a system. I'm more about what fits my needs in moderation than policies but I'm not 0% about the policies either. I like PS3 more as I explained before but to elaborate more in detail:

1: I don't look to play every single video game made and I'm not a gamer.
2: I play online but not much and I'm not going to pay for it unless I have no other choice.
3: I don't care for exclusives really.
4: I like sports games more with some shooters and some silly games here and there.
5: I like a console that I can get the most out of from a non-video game playing standpoint.

Based on this alone I would say the PS3 is right for me and I won't dare say that XBOX 360 sucks since both systems have good things and bad things about them. Some good things to say about the XBOX 360 are a bigger selection of games, better controler feel, better online game play. But in the end it all boils down to opinion what others like about their system of choice.

Both new systems could give a huge price cut come Christmas time but as long as the PS3 can continue to serve my needs, I won't give in to a new system. Of course someone getting me either system or both as a gift is another story of course.

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06-13-2013, 01:05 PM
  #374
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The death of 3TV?

Gannett to acquire Belo in $2.2 billion deal
Quote:
Gannett Co., the global media company that owns USA Today, The Arizona Republic and Channel 12 (KPNX), said Thursday it will buy Belo Corp. for $2.2 billion...

Belo owns and operates 20 TV stations, including Channel 3 (KTVK) and Channel 61 (KASW) in Phoenix.
http://www.azcentral.com/business/fr...-stations.html

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06-13-2013, 01:19 PM
  #375
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I wouldn't be surprised if 3TV is gone as that station has gone to crap over the past few years. The quality of jouranlists there have sunk faster as well and some from what I heard are very nasty in person.

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