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Old
05-02-2013, 08:57 AM
  #751
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Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
Lindholm is my favorite player after the top 3.
This is my assessment as well. Lindholm seems pretty good. Not sure we get him though. Still, a deeper draft and two picks is better than last years.

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05-02-2013, 09:34 AM
  #752
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I wouldn't say that. The last forward to put up similar numbers to Lindholm as an 18 yr old in the SEL was Nicklas Backstrom. That portends very good things.
is Backstrom the type of player you want to build a franchise around?

regardless, I value big, complete centers far more than flashy skill centers...

I would take Mikko Koivu over Niklas Backstrom
I would take Anze Kopitar over Jason Spezza
I would take Ryan Oreilly over Tyler Ennis

Barkov (to me) is a build your franchise around this guy, type of prospect (something we haven't had at forward in decades).

Lindholm, is an incredible talent, and I'd love to add him to our pipeline, he would be fun to watch, and would make the Sabres a better team...

still... there's a big difference for me...

I have Barkov ahead of Drouin now

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05-02-2013, 09:55 AM
  #753
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We have a very nice international mix among our prospects and young players, but we lack a good Swede. If we can't get into the top 4, we need to get Lindholm.

E: Forgot about Larsson.


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Old
05-02-2013, 10:32 AM
  #754
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
is Backstrom the type of player you want to build a franchise around?
For some reason, there's an assumption that we have to get that franchise player in this draft. From all of Regier's talk about "suffering," it sure sounded like they're aiming for even worse seasons than this one. I have no problem drafting a guy this year that could easily be the second- or third-best player on a Cup winner.

And regardless of what one thinks about Backstrom, he's over a point/game in his career and is a very good second banana on a team that has been a Cup contender at various points during the past five years. I'm not asserting he's better than Barkov--though I doubt either of us has watched enough of either to know definitively--but you said it was "Barkov or bust," suggesting that if we can't get Barkov, we shouldn't bother trading up. I don't agree with that. I think if Carolina is willing to move back from 5, I'd be more than happy with trading up to get Lindholm.

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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
regardless, I value big, complete centers far more than flashy skill centers...

I would take Mikko Koivu over Niklas Backstrom
I would take Anze Kopitar over Jason Spezza
I would take Ryan Oreilly over Tyler Ennis
I don't think Lindholm is the bolded. From what I've seen from him is that he has a high compete level and really hounds the puck when the other team has it. I think if you check out some of his highlight videos, especially his WJC one, you'll see a guy who plays both sides of the puck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Barkov (to me) is a build your franchise around this guy, type of prospect (something we haven't had at forward in decades).

Lindholm, is an incredible talent, and I'd love to add him to our pipeline, he would be fun to watch, and would make the Sabres a better team...

still... there's a big difference for me...

I have Barkov ahead of Drouin now
He just may be. But I was largely replying to your "Barkov or bust" theory. I'd trade up for Lindholm, too.

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05-02-2013, 10:41 AM
  #755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
For some reason, there's an assumption that we have to get that franchise player in this draft. From all of Regier's talk about "suffering," it sure sounded like they're aiming for even worse seasons than this one. I have no problem drafting a guy this year that could easily be the second- or third-best player on a Cup winner.
I completely agree with that perspective. I'd love to get Lindholm. I guess when I said, "Barkov or bust", I simply meant that missing out on that cut off, would mean busting in the "we didn't get the #1, franchise defining player".... (Seth, Mac, Barkov)...

Quote:
And regardless of what one thinks about Backstrom, he's over a point/game in his career and is a very good second banana on a team that has been a Cup contender at various points during the past five years. I'm not asserting he's better than Barkov--though I doubt either of us has watched enough of either to know definitively--
he's soft... the end.

Quote:
but you said it was "Barkov or bust," suggesting that if we can't get Barkov, we shouldn't bother trading up. I don't agree with that. I think if Carolina is willing to move back from 5, I'd be more than happy with trading up to get Lindholm.
Agreed. I conveyed my position poorly.
I would trade up for Barkov, because he's a franchise center prospect.
I would trade up for Lindholm, because he's an elite offensive talent.



Quote:
I don't think Lindholm is the bolded. From what I've seen from him is that he has a high compete level and really hounds the puck when the other team has it. I think if you check out some of his highlight videos, especially his WJC one, you'll see a guy who plays both sides of the puck.
Puck hound? Yes
D-Zone awareness? No

Lindholm definitely has elite level talent...and comparing him to a backstrom or sedin, is fine with me.



Quote:
He just may be. But I was largely replying to your "Barkov or bust" theory. I'd trade up for Lindholm, too.
I would trade insane amounts of assets to get Barkov, I wouldn't "do anything" to get Lindholm.

"Barkov or Bust" was poorly worded.

I would go "All In" on Barkov... I would make a hockey trade to get Lindholm.... better?

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Old
05-02-2013, 10:53 AM
  #756
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Backstrom is closer to Koivu/Kopitar than Spezza or Sedin...

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05-02-2013, 10:55 AM
  #757
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Backstrom is closer to Koivu/Kopitar than Spezza or Sedin...

we are talking about Nicklas Backstrom

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05-02-2013, 11:09 AM
  #758
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we are talking about Nicklas Backstrom
Yeah, the guy who is a significantly better defensive player than both of the other centers in your comparison.

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05-02-2013, 11:11 AM
  #759
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Jame, you seem to have the same sort of passion for Barkov that I held for Huberdeau in his draft year.

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Old
05-02-2013, 11:43 AM
  #760
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What about something built around Sekera to Philly? They seem to be looking for a young, top 4 defenseman and they have a lot of nice assets.

Sekera + 55 for 11

Sekera + 16 for Couturier

I know it opens a hole, but I think a deal like this could benefit in the long run.

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05-02-2013, 11:53 AM
  #761
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I don't think Philly would trade Couturier for Sekera and our 8th.

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Old
05-02-2013, 12:01 PM
  #762
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This is several weeks late, but what's the deal with some people penciling in Mike Weber into the shutdown pairing for next year? He had the lowest Corsi on the team after the black-hole of possession that was Regehr got traded, and he wasn't trusted against opposing top lines, even after the deadline. He didn't get scored on a lot for a change, which is nice, but considering he wasn't controlling play against the likes of the Richards-Zuccarello combination, I don't see him succeeding as relied-upon DFD.

Dependable, physical, PK-ing #5, sure, but anything else is a recipe for disaster if the stats are to be believed.

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05-02-2013, 12:01 PM
  #763
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Jame, you seem to have the same sort of passion for Barkov that I held for Huberdeau in his draft year.
yup, I think we both felt similarly in that draft, "man, Nuge is really talented, probably the most talented... but Couturier and Huberdeau... thats the type of player we I want more"

Skill will only get you so far... we like players that play a certain way.

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05-02-2013, 12:03 PM
  #764
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
This is several weeks late, but what's the deal with some people penciling in Mike Weber into the shutdown pairing for next year? He had the lowest Corsi on the team after the black-hole of possession that was Regehr got traded, and he wasn't trusted against opposing top lines, even after the deadline. He didn't get scored on a lot for a change, which is nice, but considering he wasn't controlling play against the likes of the Richards-Zuccarello combination, I don't see him succeeding as relied-upon DFD.

Dependable, physical, PK-ing #5, sure, but anything else is a recipe for disaster if the stats are to be believed.
I think a Weber-Sekera pairing could get the job done with that role. They certainly will do better than any rookie/sophmore pairing we can put together...

unless we go out and sign someone like Scuderi... what is your suggestion?

Personally, I think it will be very important to define roles early, especially with a young team. We are going to be bad next year... better to have our younger players get some protection, while they learn on the fly.

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05-02-2013, 12:04 PM
  #765
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
This is several weeks late, but what's the deal with some people penciling in Mike Weber into the shutdown pairing for next year? He had the lowest Corsi on the team after the black-hole of possession that was Regehr got traded, and he wasn't trusted against opposing top lines, even after the deadline. He didn't get scored on a lot for a change, which is nice, but considering he wasn't controlling play against the likes of the Richards-Zuccarello combination, I don't see him succeeding as relied-upon DFD.

Dependable, physical, PK-ing #5, sure, but anything else is a recipe for disaster if the stats are to be believed.
I agree. I think he's earned a spot in the regular lineup, but only on the third-pairing. High amount of d-zone starts (which will kill Corsi, obviously), and penalty killer. Asking for more is taunting disaster.

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05-02-2013, 12:05 PM
  #766
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I agree. I think he's earned a spot in the regular lineup, but only on the third-pairing. High amount of d-zone starts (which will kill Corsi, obviously), and penalty killer. Asking for more is taunting disaster.
I think the pairing that takes a high amount of d zone starts and thus faces tougher competition... is not the 3rd pairing.

fans need to get away from the idea of # pairs / # dmen

Their are roles, and certain roles are more important than others

Top Pair = Big Minutes, Provide Offense, while facing whomever the opponent puts out
Shutdown Pair = Def zone, heavy lifting, PK, while facing the opponents best a lot
Bottom pair = PP/PK specialists, pugilists, developing players, players who can step into a specific role above them (first 2 pairs). They get protected minutes (o zone draws, lower level competition)

Based on what we have right now... this is the only logical makeup (imo)
Top Pair = Ehrhoff-Myers
Shutdwon = Weber-Sekera
Bottom = Pysyk/McNabb/Ruhwedel/etc

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Old
05-02-2013, 12:18 PM
  #767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
yup, I think we both felt similarly in that draft, "man, Nuge is really talented, probably the most talented... but Couturier and Huberdeau... thats the type of player we I want more"

Skill will only get you so far... we like players that play a certain way.
Those were the two guys I wanted. Ah well.

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05-02-2013, 12:51 PM
  #768
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I think the pairing that takes a high amount of d zone starts and thus faces tougher competition... is not the 3rd pairing.

fans need to get away from the idea of # pairs / # dmen

Their are roles, and certain roles are more important than others

Top Pair = Big Minutes, Provide Offense, while facing whomever the opponent puts out
Shutdown Pair = Def zone, heavy lifting, PK, while facing the opponents best a lot
Bottom pair = PP/PK specialists, pugilists, developing players, players who can step into a specific role above them (first 2 pairs). They get protected minutes (o zone draws, lower level competition)

Based on what we have right now... this is the only logical makeup (imo)
Top Pair = Ehrhoff-Myers
Shutdwon = Weber-Sekera
Bottom = Pysyk/McNabb/Ruhwedel/etc
I don't think d-zone starts inherently increase quality of competition. Go to leftwinglock and look at who Mikey was playing most frequently against last season, especially after the trade deadline. It wasn't opposing top lines.

Honestly, I'd play Sekera-Ehrhoff as the shutdown pair until Myers gets his **** together or we sign somebody (yes to Scuds). Christian's not the ideal guy for these deployments, but I'd rather the boneheaded mistakes come from the guy who can bring the transition/possession game with consistency.

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05-02-2013, 12:55 PM
  #769
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So, how would everyone feel about the following:

A 'band aid' fix for the next year or two brings in a few veteran players (without giving up futures/picks)

My proposals are as follows:

To Buffalo: Statsny
To Colorado: Ennis

Ennis is younger, has put up similar production, and at a much lower cap hit. Statsny's production has trailed off, but really appears to be in desperate need of a change of scenery. This also gives us the option to extend or move him at the trade deadline depending on how he performs

To San Jose: Miller
To Buffalo: Boyle, Niemi (we buy out Niemi or flip him to a 3rd team for futures)

Buffalo helps SJ with their Cap situation while getting a top d-man ending the downslope of his career.

Extend Vanek to a 6 year, 39 million dollar deal, somewhat frontloaded.

Line up for 2013:

Vanek-Statsny-Stafford
Leino-Hodgson-Foligno
Larrsson-Girgensons-Ott
Kaleta-Porter-Flynn
Scott

Ehrhoff-Boyle
Sekera-Myers
Weber-Pysyk
Sulzer

Enroth
Hackett

Now, that top 6 is still pretty soft, however, I think it's good enough to be a playoff caliber team. It allows us to give Grigerenko and Armia a year in the AHL to learn and adapt to the North American Pro Game. It also takes alot of pressure off Hodgson and let's him escape tough checking while learning both sides of the puck. This also let's Myers get some easier minutes while he sorts out his issues, conditioning and confidence.

We don't take on any long term contracts, we don't sacrifice any picks, and we use some pegula bucks. If Statsny and Boyle both bust and we're out of the playoffs, they are two prime trade deadline pieces we can move. If they work out perhaps we can find a way to keep one or both on short term deals.

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05-02-2013, 01:31 PM
  #770
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I don't understand the benefit of Stastny for Ennis at all. You seem to acknowledge Ennis has more value, but do the trade straight up anyway. You also talk about not giving up futures. Ennis is the same age as Hodgson and will be in his prime when the younger guys start to come flourish. How is that not giving up futures? It doesn't matter, because Regier has said this is exactly how he won't try to build this team. We're not shooting for 8th place and a pat on the back anymore.

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05-02-2013, 01:59 PM
  #771
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--Thomas Vanek to Philadelphia for Matt Read, Nick Cousins, No. 11.
--Ryan Miller to Washington for Caleb Herbert, No. 22 (or a first in 2014 - either way, people will be disappointed in the return Miller gets, I think).
--Re-sign Hodgson to a three-year, $10 million contract.
--Re-sign Weber to a four-year, $10 million contract.
--Re-sign Scott to a two year, $1.5 million contract.
--Extend Ott to a four-year, $11 million contract.
--Waive Gerbe
--Sign Boyd Gordon

Ott (A)-Hodgson-Read
Leino-Porter-Flynn
Ennis-Grigorenko-Stafford (A)
Foligno-Gordon-Kaleta
Tropp
Scott

--This forward group gives you two quality two-way players with some offensive upside to flank Hodgson; a good playmaker in Leino that can also work the boards and generate a cycle with two players good at it while taking on tough defensive responsibilities; an offensive line playing sheltered minutes (this assumes Grigorenko takes some major steps forward); and an energy line.

--Gerbe, McCormick and Ellis all play pivotal veteran roles in Rochester. This setup also allows you to bring Larsson, Girgensons, Armia, Catenacci and Cousins along slowly.

Myers-Ehrhoff
Sekera-Pysyk
Weber (A)-Ruhwedel

--This is a soft defense. But Myers seemed to be getting it late this season. 2013-14 will be a make-or-break year for him. Pysyk and Ruhwedel earn spots because of their simple brand of hockey. This core was undoubtedly better later this year. You know what to expect from Ehrhoff, Sekera and Weber.

Enroth
Hackett

--Split time between the two evenly. Re-sign Leggio if he's willing to continue on in Rochester. If Hackett struggles, give Leggio a shot.

2013 draft (four first-round picks): no. 8, no. 11, no. 16, no. 22

--If these picks, coupled with the plethora of seconds Regier has acquired, can get Buffalo into the top four, do it. If not, stock the pipeline with quality prospects.

--I'm not going to run a mock, but coming away with four of Nurse/Ristolainen/Monahan/Shinkaruk/Horvat/Pulock/Zadorov/Compher/Erne/Lazar/Hartman/Rychel etc. wouldn't be a bad thing.


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05-02-2013, 02:35 PM
  #772
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I don't think d-zone starts inherently increase quality of competition. Go to leftwinglock and look at who Mikey was playing most frequently against last season, especially after the trade deadline. It wasn't opposing top lines.

Honestly, I'd play Sekera-Ehrhoff as the shutdown pair until Myers gets his **** together or we sign somebody (yes to Scuds). Christian's not the ideal guy for these deployments, but I'd rather the boneheaded mistakes come from the guy who can bring the transition/possession game with consistency.
i like this argument

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05-02-2013, 02:37 PM
  #773
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So, how would everyone feel about the following:

A 'band aid' fix for the next year or two brings in a few veteran players (without giving up futures/picks)

My proposals are as follows:

To Buffalo: Statsny
To Colorado: Ennis

Ennis is younger, has put up similar production, and at a much lower cap hit. Statsny's production has trailed off, but really appears to be in desperate need of a change of scenery. This also gives us the option to extend or move him at the trade deadline depending on how he performs

To San Jose: Miller
To Buffalo: Boyle, Niemi (we buy out Niemi or flip him to a 3rd team for futures)

Buffalo helps SJ with their Cap situation while getting a top d-man ending the downslope of his career.

Extend Vanek to a 6 year, 39 million dollar deal, somewhat frontloaded.

Line up for 2013:

Vanek-Statsny-Stafford
Leino-Hodgson-Foligno
Larrsson-Girgensons-Ott
Kaleta-Porter-Flynn
Scott

Ehrhoff-Boyle
Sekera-Myers
Weber-Pysyk
Sulzer

Enroth
Hackett

Now, that top 6 is still pretty soft, however, I think it's good enough to be a playoff caliber team. It allows us to give Grigerenko and Armia a year in the AHL to learn and adapt to the North American Pro Game. It also takes alot of pressure off Hodgson and let's him escape tough checking while learning both sides of the puck. This also let's Myers get some easier minutes while he sorts out his issues, conditioning and confidence.

We don't take on any long term contracts, we don't sacrifice any picks, and we use some pegula bucks. If Statsny and Boyle both bust and we're out of the playoffs, they are two prime trade deadline pieces we can move. If they work out perhaps we can find a way to keep one or both on short term deals.
I hate it with every fiber in my body

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05-02-2013, 02:46 PM
  #774
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Please, only acquire hard working high effort players. If they dont have a history of working hard, stay away from them.

If we draft, sign, and trade for players like that we will have a team we all love.

Plenty of highly skilled players in the draft that also have a history of being hard workers on and off the ice.

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05-02-2013, 03:27 PM
  #775
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Stastny is not even remotely as good as Ennis, and I am not a huge Ennis fan. That guy has regressed into a #2 on a bad team or a #3 on a good team.

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