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Old
04-15-2013, 03:39 PM
  #176
Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Oh please, stop with the condescending "You believe it because the media tells you to believe it" garbage. I thought we were operating on a level of mutual respect at this point, but perhaps I'm mistaken.

Miller has put up consistently above-average numbers on bad defensive teams in recent years. Crawford is a bit more of a wild card having gone from above-average to bad to good in three years behind elite puck possession teams who play good defense. Miller is a safer bet than Crawford on a season-to-season basis.
Was it condescending to ask for the tangible evidence with which you base your opinion on?

Obviously, you don't buy the myth, since you know what Miller is...."consistently above average".

It's impressive that Crawford gets his good performances dismissed, yet Miller's numbers from the playoff/co caps era aren't being diminished because of the dominant team he played on at the time.

And let's not pretend that up until this season, Miller didn't spend 4 years in a defensive minded system that shielded him plenty... he had an excellent blueline protecting him during his vezina year... but we use that year to exhalt his greatness, while Crawford present day vezina year is diminished because of the team around him

it's hogwash.... there would be no appreciable difference between Miller and Crawford behind that team... NONE.

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Old
04-15-2013, 03:47 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
.913 in games in which Buffalo could've been eliminated or could've eliminated their opponent (or both).

Excluding the Philly series you are harping on, it's a shade below .920.
pretty average

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Old
04-15-2013, 03:54 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Sabresfansince1980 View Post
He wants to argue about others forming opinions based only on stats, and then is using stats for this argument without taking the obvious difference in team defenses into account. No point in talking to a (disrespectful) wall.
I want to argue about what it is that makes people believe that Ryan Miller is something special (top 5, elite, whatever other ridiculous label you choose)... something other than an above average NHL Goaltender...

I personally think elite goaltenders are so rare that you could go years without seeing one. Other than that, there are elite Seasons (Miller 09/10) and elite stretches of play (Bobrovsky right now)... but to label a goalie top 5 outside of a specific year, or as elite outside of a specific time frame.... total nonsense...

the play at the position is fickle... and completely dependent on the talent in front of it...

Miller, Crawford, Emery.... makes no difference on a great team like Chicago...

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Old
04-15-2013, 03:57 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I want to argue about what it is that makes people believe that Ryan Miller is something special (top 5, elite, whatever other ridiculous label you choose)... something other than an above average NHL Goaltender...
His paycheck


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Old
04-15-2013, 04:11 PM
  #180
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Some fans will believe what they believe until they are blue in the face. Even when presented with facts that prove them wrong. It's the nature in life when you wear blinders. It holds true in SOOO many aspects.

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Old
04-15-2013, 04:42 PM
  #181
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Oh come on Miller is much better then Corey Crawford. Put Miller behind that defense and he'd already have locked up the Vezina

Something I find funny, last off season a pretty large portion here were salivating over Jordan Staal, saying they would give up anyone for him and that once he left Pitt he would turn into a franchise center?

Hmm, well Carolina is ****ing garbage and he's on pace for 52 points over an 82 game season. His two way play has been much worse and it proved that Staal benefitted playing for the Pens and not suffered from it.-18 is pretty bad for a supposed best shutdown center in the game 1 ppg on the season is telling me he's limited offensively and will not become more then a 60 point center. He is what he is, he came in at an early age and hasn't scored as many goals since. He's turning 25 and is already in his statistical prime. Very overrated, some of the proposals were pretty laughable (Myers and Ennis )

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04-15-2013, 04:59 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
Oh come on Miller is much better then Corey Crawford. Put Miller behind that defense and he'd already have locked up the Vezina

Something I find funny, last off season a pretty large portion here were salivating over Jordan Staal, saying they would give up anyone for him and that once he left Pitt he would turn into a franchise center?

Hmm, well Carolina is ****ing garbage and he's on pace for 52 points over an 82 game season. His two way play has been much worse and it proved that Staal benefitted playing for the Pens and not suffered from it.-18 is pretty bad for a supposed best shutdown center in the game 1 ppg on the season is telling me he's limited offensively and will not become more then a 60 point center. He is what he is, he came in at an early age and hasn't scored as many goals since. He's turning 25 and is already in his statistical prime. Very overrated, some of the proposals were pretty laughable (Myers and Ennis )
yea, all those Sabres had great years

Apparently, only Ryan Miller gets to excuse his ****** stats for playing behind a ****** defense... but not a shutdown center playing in front of a ****** defense and an AHL goalie.

stay consistent freddie...

but thanks for reinforcing the "believers" example...

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Old
04-15-2013, 05:06 PM
  #183
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Ah look, the extremes at war again. Staal isn't Bergeron/Backes good defensively, but he's also immediately our best defensive forward since Peca.

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Old
04-15-2013, 05:08 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
Oh come on Miller is much better then Corey Crawford. Put Miller behind that defense and he'd already have locked up the Vezina
back it up with anything other than your belief... im listening


I know... Miller is awesome, Vanek is awesome, Ennis is awesome, Myers is awesome.... :yawn:

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Old
04-15-2013, 06:23 PM
  #185
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With the statements made by Mactavish today, I'm looking hard at Edmonton as possible landing spots for Vanek and Miller.

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Old
04-15-2013, 06:28 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
With the statements made by Mactavish today, I'm looking hard at Edmonton as possible landing spots for Vanek and Miller.
Personally I think it'd be a mistake for them to add Miller. They need to cut down on shots against, just like our team. Miller might make them better, but he's not going to fix their problems. Vanek would be interesting, though. There's an obvious spot there if they move Hemsky, otherwise it'd keep Yakupov out of the top 6 going forward.

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Old
04-15-2013, 06:54 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
With the statements made by Mactavish today, I'm looking hard at Edmonton as possible landing spots for Vanek and Miller.
I could see them going hard after Myers....they need a D man and I get the sense from Mac T that they are willing to pay the price to get one.

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04-15-2013, 07:03 PM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
back it up with anything other than your belief... im listening


I know... Miller is awesome, Vanek is awesome, Ennis is awesome, Myers is awesome.... :yawn:
Atleast be consistent with vanek. I've seen you praise him at the start of the season and trash him before the season and now trashing him again.

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Old
04-15-2013, 07:06 PM
  #189
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How would people feel about Vanek + 2nd for Musil + 1st from Edmonton? That way they don't give up any of their big names, but still improve by a lot short term.

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04-15-2013, 07:07 PM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
How would people feel about Vanek + 2nd for Musil + 1st from Edmonton?
I'd feel pretty terrible about it

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Old
04-15-2013, 07:11 PM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
I'd feel pretty terrible about it
Why? Musil is exactly the type of d prospect we could use and Edmonton will have a top 10 pick. For one year of Vanek, I don't see us doing much better.

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04-15-2013, 07:59 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Why? Musil is exactly the type of d prospect we could use and Edmonton will have a top 10 pick. For one year of Vanek, I don't see us doing much better.
You don't trade a player of Vanek's caliber for a pair of hopes and dreams. We need to be getting at least one sure-fire NHL player back.
Also, I doubt Vanek is the kind of player Edmonton is looking to add. They don't lack skilled forwards.

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Old
04-15-2013, 08:01 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
Personally I think it'd be a mistake for them to add Miller. They need to cut down on shots against, just like our team. Miller might make them better, but he's not going to fix their problems. Vanek would be interesting, though. There's an obvious spot there if they move Hemsky, otherwise it'd keep Yakupov out of the top 6 going forward.
I don't understand this logic. They shouldn't improve their goaltending because their defense is bad? Are they only allowed to upgrade them both at the same time?

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04-15-2013, 08:12 PM
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
You don't trade a player of Vanek's caliber for a pair of hopes and dreams. We need to be getting at least one sure-fire NHL player back.
Also, I doubt Vanek is the kind of player Edmonton is looking to add. They don't lack skilled forwards.
When you are clearly rebuilding you do. 1 year of Vanek for 14 years of hopes and dreams.

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Old
04-15-2013, 08:12 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
Atleast be consistent with vanek. I've seen you praise him at the start of the season and trash him before the season and now trashing him again.
so you mean I give him credit when he is playing well... and bash him when he's playing bad?

im not a fan boy or a hater... despite popular belief. my opinion is always informed by the present.... nobody on this team has done anything to earn a free pass from the present

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Old
04-15-2013, 08:14 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
When you are clearly rebuilding you do. 1 year of Vanek for 14 years of hopes and dreams.
You need to get back decent veteran pieces to help the kids through the growing pains though. If we pulled off a nash type trade with a team and got back a high pick, a decent prospect, and at least one quality top 6/top 9 forward for vanek, I'd be happy

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04-15-2013, 08:16 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by HockeyH3aven View Post
I don't understand this logic. They shouldn't improve their goaltending because their defense is bad? Are they only allowed to upgrade them both at the same time?
I think the logic is: Spend more on the defense for the long term rather than get a short term band aid in miller's goaltending

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Old
04-15-2013, 09:05 PM
  #198
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You need to get back decent veteran pieces to help the kids through the growing pains though. If we pulled off a nash type trade with a team and got back a high pick, a decent prospect, and at least one quality top 6/top 9 forward for vanek, I'd be happy
I'd rather they fully commit to a rebuild than sell Vanek for a package that includes stopgaps like the Nash package. I like Dubinsky and Anisimov enough, but they are both 3rd liners and quite frankly we have enough of those type of players (although a 3rd line center who can play defense is certainly a need) Columbus would have been better served getting all futures for Nash. They aren't winning anything anytime soon and guys like Dubinsky and Anisimov are players that make their team mediocre and prevent them from bottoming out and getting more difference makers in that organization. The pick they got is nice, but they should have gotten more for Nash IMO

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Old
04-15-2013, 09:07 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i don't see any reason for Miller to be less likely to implode in the playoffs than Crawford. Bowman let a cup winning goalie go, and he has built a president trophy team behind the next guy in line. To think he'll change his beliefs and trade away valuable assets for an old Miller who isn't even as good as the guy he currently has... just completely ridiculous.

the belief that Miller is some sort of special goalie... and Crawford is some scrub that can't be counted is a legitimately stupid belief
Nice straw man. Never said Crawford was a scrub who couldnt be founted on. Never said Miller was "special."

Which "valuable" assets would Bowman trade away? It's a goalie swap that adds McNeill and a pick.

Just completely ridiculous

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Old
04-15-2013, 09:10 PM
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyH3aven View Post
I don't understand this logic. They shouldn't improve their goaltending because their defense is bad? Are they only allowed to upgrade them both at the same time?
Because it only marginally upgrades their goaltending and they'll still let in too many goals a game. It's not worth Miller's salary + assets to marginally upgrade. They need to put the money towards improving the team defense.

They need to continue (start?) to build their team with smart additions. They aren't about to make a cup run.

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