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Proposal: Florida - Edmonton

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Old
04-21-2005, 12:03 AM
  #1
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Proposal: Florida - Edmonton

To Edmonton:

C Stephen Weiss - 22 years old, $1,050,000
D Mike van Ryn - 25 years old, $1,400,000

To Florida:

D Eric Brewer - 26 years old, $2,650,000

Edmonton adds an extremely solid, young, two-way player in Weiss(my close friend!), and an arguably more efficient offensive defenseman than Brewer in van Ryn. His 13 goals surpassed Brewer's 7 goals, as did his 24 assists to Brewer's 18, for a 37 to 25 point comparison between the two. van Ryn is physical at 6'1", 210 and both of these players would benefit highly from a fast, high-paced program in Edmonton.

Florida adds a more polished all-around defenseman, and are able to do so with having Jokinen, Horton, Olesz and Cullen down the middle. Brewer adds stability offensively and defensively to the team and gives Jacques Martin a workhorse, minute cruncher to accompany Jay Bouwmeester.

Thoughts?

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Old
04-21-2005, 12:10 AM
  #2
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i just dont see why edm would want weiss when they got schremp and pouliot as centers in the farm, doubt they do it

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04-21-2005, 12:14 AM
  #3
sunb
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I doubt Florida would make this trade.

Mike Van Ryn isn't that much worse than Brewer and I believe when both hit their primes, they will be similiar in dominance. Brewer as a smooth stay-at-home defenseman with some offense while Van Ryn is a slick two-way defenseman. Brewer will likely be better but one has to realize that Weiss is much more than a mere "throw-in" as he has potential to be a great 2nd line center.

And is that difference really worth Florida throwing in a potential 2nd line center in Stephen Weiss into the deal? Stephen Weiss will likely develop into a solid 55-65 point guy (imagine a faster but smaller version of Radek Bonk) and has potential to be even better.

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Old
04-21-2005, 12:29 AM
  #4
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Bad deal for both teams if you ask me.

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Old
04-21-2005, 12:48 AM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
I doubt Florida would make this trade.

Mike Van Ryn isn't that much worse than Brewer and I believe when both hit their primes, they will be similiar in dominance. Brewer as a smooth stay-at-home defenseman with some offense while Van Ryn is a slick two-way defenseman. Brewer will likely be better but one has to realize that Weiss is much more than a mere "throw-in" as he has potential to be a great 2nd line center.

And is that difference really worth Florida throwing in a potential 2nd line center in Stephen Weiss into the deal? Stephen Weiss will likely develop into a solid 55-65 point guy (imagine a faster but smaller version of Radek Bonk) and has potential to be even better.
Mike Van Ryn isn't much worse than Brewer? I don't think he begins to be in the same league as Brewer.

This trade favors FLA by a considerable margin. I like Weiss a lot, but he is still a completely unproven prospect. Personally, I've always had my doubts about him (not saying he won't be a player - just saying he isn't a sure thing).

If Florida was interested in working a deal around Jason Smith, I might see it. But, an unproven guy like Weiss is a not going to be enough to land Brewer.

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Old
04-21-2005, 01:03 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyIsALegend
To Edmonton:

C Stephen Weiss - 22 years old, $1,050,000
D Mike van Ryn - 25 years old, $1,400,000

To Florida:

D Eric Brewer - 26 years old, $2,650,000

Edmonton adds an extremely solid, young, two-way player in Weiss(my close friend!), and an arguably more efficient offensive defenseman than Brewer in van Ryn. His 13 goals surpassed Brewer's 7 goals, as did his 24 assists to Brewer's 18, for a 37 to 25 point comparison between the two. van Ryn is physical at 6'1", 210 and both of these players would benefit highly from a fast, high-paced program in Edmonton.

Florida adds a more polished all-around defenseman, and are able to do so with having Jokinen, Horton, Olesz and Cullen down the middle. Brewer adds stability offensively and defensively to the team and gives Jacques Martin a workhorse, minute cruncher to accompany Jay Bouwmeester.

Thoughts?

From an Edm Standpoint we would be all over that deal.

We could add a young offensive Centerman to play in our top 6 and Van Ryan plays a style that the oil badly need. Brewer is a very GOOD d-man and he will be missed, but this deal fills our need at center and at Offensive d-man.

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Old
04-21-2005, 01:17 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40
i just dont see why edm would want weiss when they got schremp and pouliot as centers in the farm, doubt they do it
You should always have depth at every position if possible. For one, it benefits your minor league affiliate... for another, if either Schremp or Pouliot don't pan out/get injured/something, then you have the potential of another player stepping in.

It's a decent proposal. Brewer certainly is the most valuable piece of the trade. You might want to try to even it out with a pick or something.

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Old
04-21-2005, 01:21 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Mike Van Ryn isn't much worse than Brewer? I don't think he begins to be in the same league as Brewer.

This trade favors FLA by a considerable margin. I like Weiss a lot, but he is still a completely unproven prospect. Personally, I've always had my doubts about him (not saying he won't be a player - just saying he isn't a sure thing).

If Florida was interested in working a deal around Jason Smith, I might see it. But, an unproven guy like Weiss is a not going to be enough to land Brewer.
At least one Oilers fan doesn't agree.

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Old
04-21-2005, 01:46 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chayos1
From an Edm Standpoint we would be all over that deal.

We could add a young offensive Centerman to play in our top 6 and Van Ryan plays a style that the oil badly need. Brewer is a very GOOD d-man and he will be missed, but this deal fills our need at center and at Offensive d-man.
I highly doubt that. Lowe is focussed on that #1 Center, and would be dealing Brewer for just that, not for some 2nd paring dman and not very highly touted prospect. I have a feeling Wiess becomes an average 2nd liner if that.
With Schremp and Pouliot in the system it would really be a silly trade IMO.

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Old
04-21-2005, 01:47 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40
i just dont see why edm would want weiss when they got schremp and pouliot as centers in the farm, doubt they do it
I doubt both Pouliot and Schremp will pan out as top 2 line centers and even if they do, they won't be ready for a few years.

Also, Brewer can be replaced as almost every single one of Edmonton's defensemen and defensemen prospects are of the defensive stay-at-home ilk while smooth two-way defensemen like Van Ryn are exactly what they need.

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Old
04-21-2005, 01:57 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Mike Van Ryn isn't much worse than Brewer? I don't think he begins to be in the same league as Brewer.

This trade favors FLA by a considerable margin. I like Weiss a lot, but he is still a completely unproven prospect. Personally, I've always had my doubts about him (not saying he won't be a player - just saying he isn't a sure thing).

If Florida was interested in working a deal around Jason Smith, I might see it. But, an unproven guy like Weiss is a not going to be enough to land Brewer.
I think you're selling Van Ryn short Milbury.

Van Ryn scored 13 goals and 37 points as a 24 year old defenseman for Florida last year.
Brewer's career high is 8 goals and 29 points.

Van Ryn may have had a rough development, but he exceeded all expectations and performed well as Florida's #1 defenseman. He is fairly solid defensively and while Brewer is a better defensively, it is offensive-defensemen that the Oilers need. And when you factor in Van Ryn's overall smooth two-way game, he is definitely in Brewer's league. Not to mention Van Ryn earns half as much as Brewer and is one year younger.

I think if you consider the fact that the Oilers already have Smith, Staios, Semenov, Bergeron and Cross and prospects Lynch and Woywitka coming up, and the fact that they are all defensive stay-at-home defenseman, a guy like Van Ryn will be valuable. One reason why Edmonton missed the playoffs was because they didn't have an offensive defenseman to quarterback their powerplay. Van Ryn's slick passing, quality shot and smooth skating could be extremely useful to Edmonton, a team that earns its staple on fast transition plays.

Not only does Edmonton shed salary, get younger and gain an offensive defenseman. They gain a future 2nd line center in Stephen Weiss. The Oilers have lacked quality centers since they days of Weight and Comrie. Having Weiss, Pouliot and Schremp ensures that they will be strong down the middle since it is highly likely that either Pouliot or Schremp or both will bust while Weiss is a safer bet to reach his potential as a 2nd line 55-65 point center (think of a smaller but faster version of Radek Bonk).

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Old
04-21-2005, 02:07 AM
  #12
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As an Oiler fan, I'd love to see this trade. Weiss becomes an immediate upgrade as a skilled second line centre. He benefits with a move to the Western Conference and specifically to team that values speed/skill. Likely also benefits by being removed from tough love by Mr. Keenan. Lots of raw skill and this is a guy who might realize his potential in a new setting like Edmonton.

Van Ryn provides an offense upgrade on defense. Would slip nicely into top power play time quarterback and given big minutes to resurrect a pathetic power play.

In Brewer, Oilers lose a minute muncher and valuable big man. But his loss is absorbed by committee with veterans Smith, Staios, Van Ryn, Semenov, and the pipeline of Greene, Woywitka, and Lynch. Brewer will be best served by focusing his role on being a superior defender and end the power play ambitions. He can be dominant if focused in this capacity and end the experiment to be that full tool uber-defenseman.

Let's make a deal.

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Old
04-21-2005, 02:15 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
I think you're selling Van Ryn short Milbury.

Van Ryn scored 13 goals and 37 points as a 24 year old defenseman for Florida last year.
Brewer's career high is 8 goals and 29 points.

Van Ryn may have had a rough development, but he exceeded all expectations and performed well as Florida's #1 defenseman. He is fairly solid defensively and while Brewer is a better defensively, it is offensive-defensemen that the Oilers need. And when you factor in Van Ryn's overall smooth two-way game, he is definitely in Brewer's league. Not to mention Van Ryn earns half as much as Brewer and is one year younger.

I think if you consider the fact that the Oilers already have Smith, Staios, Semenov, Bergeron and Cross and prospects Lynch and Woywitka coming up, and the fact that they are all defensive stay-at-home defenseman, a guy like Van Ryn will be valuable. One reason why Edmonton missed the playoffs was because they didn't have an offensive defenseman to quarterback their powerplay. Van Ryn's slick passing, quality shot and smooth skating could be extremely useful to Edmonton, a team that earns its staple on fast transition plays.

Not only does Edmonton shed salary, get younger and gain an offensive defenseman. They gain a future 2nd line center in Stephen Weiss. The Oilers have lacked quality centers since they days of Weight and Comrie. Having Weiss, Pouliot and Schremp ensures that they will be strong down the middle since it is highly likely that either Pouliot or Schremp or both will bust while Weiss is a safer bet to reach his potential as a 2nd line 55-65 point center (think of a smaller but faster version of Radek Bonk).
Future 2nd line center great . Thought we had one in York, and in some ways Horcoff. We trade our best chance at the #1 Center the Oilers are desperately in need of, for something that doesn't adress their biggest concern? No chance.

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Old
04-21-2005, 04:29 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chayos1
From an Edm Standpoint we would be all over that deal.

We could add a young offensive Centerman to play in our top 6 and Van Ryan plays a style that the oil badly need. Brewer is a very GOOD d-man and he will be missed, but this deal fills our need at center and at Offensive d-man.
I don't see how it fills the need at centre, personally.

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Old
04-21-2005, 05:41 AM
  #15
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Quite balanced value-wise but I'm not sure if this suits either team.

Weiss has lots and lots of potential and Cats are starving for offensive depth. Van Ryn is a good up and coming d-man who doesn't shy away from physical game and can play in both ends.

Brewer is one of the top young d-men in the league but is he ever going to reach his full potential? I mean he's what 26 already.

Oilers would do this deal, Cats wouldn't.

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Old
04-21-2005, 07:31 AM
  #16
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I am still shocked that Keenen has not hung Weiss up by his ankles yet

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04-21-2005, 07:41 AM
  #17
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How many times do the same proposals get proposed this lockout?

Florida won't do this deal for the single purpose that right now it would leave them with one single center with NHL experience in the entire system. Olli Jokinen. They've gone out and signed Hill, Karpovtsev, Kwiatkowski and Cairns to attempt and fill the holes in Mezei, Bouw, and Van Ryn. Supposedly Keenan is targeting Ryan Parent for when/if the next draft takes place, and there are still a few defensive prospects in the like like Krajicek and Novak. Florida is not in need of a defenseman and are not goin to trade for one after signing four in the offseason. They're especially not goin to trade one of the two centers with NHL experience only to increase their payroll substantially when the couldn't make a profit with a $25 mil payroll. Panthers don't make this trade, cause regardless of value, it ends up bein suicide on numerous levels.

And Darth, you seriously underrate Weiss. Whoever compared him to Radek Bonk is mistaken in my opinion. He'll be somewhere more inbetween a Brendan Morrisson and Steve Yzerman.

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04-21-2005, 09:27 AM
  #18
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CCR - That is just my personal opinion on Weiss. But, to be clear, he is a promising young player and I could certainly be wrong. I'm not going out on a limb here, and making any firm predictions. But, my guess is that he is not going to develop. Something about him kind of reminds me of Tim Connolly (who I was once sure would be a star).

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04-21-2005, 09:45 AM
  #19
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I actually quite like the Florida package. Weiss is talented but stunted in Florida, and that surely does affect his trade value. Yet I just see Edmonton as a perfect environment for him... perhaps that's entirely the wrong way to evaluate a player in a trade proposal, but it's what my gut tells me. Weiss would do well in Edmonton.

I'm also quite high on Mike Van Ryn. Brewer is the superior player, but Van Ryn is no slouch and is coming off a monster year in every respect, really.

I think this is a decent swap, and would even suggest Edmonton doesn't give up enough, crazy as that sounds when dealing a Team Canada stalwart. Maybe add a second rounder to Brewer for Weiss and Van Ryn and I'd call that even.

Now that's just value. In terms of need, I think Edmonton comes out very well, both in adding a young and talented center, as well as adding an offenseman for the back line. What this deal would not do, in my opinion, is meet Florida needs. They are thin at center and dealing one of their top (if inexperienced) centers right now is probably not feasible, not unless the proposal is revisited after Florida hypothetically stocks up down the middle in free agency. Otherwise, they can't realistically deal Weiss.

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04-21-2005, 10:07 AM
  #20
Darth Milbury
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Seems like a few of the more knowledgable posters here disagree with me about Weiss. So, I'm willing to be proven wrong. Something about that kid screams "bust" to me. But, it is not like I have any hard evidence or solid facts. I'm going on gut instinct - without much support for my conclusions. I admit that I've thought the same about a few other highly touted prospects over the years and was incorrect.

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Old
04-21-2005, 10:12 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Something about that kid screams "bust" to me.
That's simple. Mike Keenan is involved. With Keenan in Florida, I could agree that Weiss might end up a bust. But that goes back to an interview that Ray Whitney once gave to the Sun-Sentinel, while in Florida, blaming some organizations for a player not succeeding by not givin them the chance to. In Whitney's case, it was Edmonton or San Jose he was referring to.

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04-21-2005, 10:27 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClashCitiRockr
That's simple. Mike Keenan is involved. With Keenan in Florida, I could agree that Weiss might end up a bust. But that goes back to an interview that Ray Whitney once gave to the Sun-Sentinel, while in Florida, blaming some organizations for a player not succeeding by not givin them the chance to. In Whitney's case, it was Edmonton or San Jose he was referring to.
Actually, I think you are hitting the nail right on the head here. My real concern with Weiss is that he and Keenan are not going to mix and the kid is going to flame out.

I watched the Islanders organization ruin a number of major young talents (Connolly, Pyatt) by destroying their confidence and work ethics early on. I could see the same thing happening with Weiss if FLA is not careful.

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04-21-2005, 10:29 AM
  #23
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I think Weiss would be a great fit in Edmonton. The Oilers could use his passing skills and his talent.

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04-21-2005, 10:37 AM
  #24
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Darth/Clash, I agree wholeheartedly. I think the kid has genuine talent but doubt it will blossom under the tutelage of that management team... though that could be premature if Martin is given free reign. That's just not something you come to expect from Keenan. Put Weiss in a free-wheeling environment and I think he takes off, and therein lies the risk. Everyone knows Weiss has underperformed and developed slowly. The question is whether or not he's ruined or can be salvaged elsewhere. Martin has the rep as a developing coach, but Keenan as a hands-off GM just doesn't sound likely.

Part of the reason I like that package so much is that the players are evidently well tailored to the type of game Edmonton likes to play. In the end, though, Florida probably doesn't get back what it needs and declines.

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04-21-2005, 12:00 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake1588
Everyone knows Weiss has underperformed and developed slowly.
You evidently didn't follow Weiss too closely so far. His first year he dedicated to developing his defensive game to hold up in the NHL. This past season, his scoring was there, and was really starting to put points up when the entire line (Nedorost-Weiss-Horton) went down with numerous injuries. Weiss was well on his way to forty or fifty points after starting the season in the AHL and before gettin hurt (along with the rest of the line) in mid January, thus limiting his season to 50 games.

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