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Proposal: Florida - Edmonton

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Old
04-22-2005, 10:02 PM
  #51
Asiaoil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
CCR - That is just my personal opinion on Weiss. But, to be clear, he is a promising young player and I could certainly be wrong. I'm not going out on a limb here, and making any firm predictions. But, my guess is that he is not going to develop. Something about him kind of reminds me of Tim Connolly (who I was once sure would be a star).
Agree - I see nothing in Weiss' past that suggests he will be even a servicable 2nd line center. His numbers in the AHL this year are are abysmal for a prospect his age:

2004-05 San Antonio Rampage AHL 62gp 15-23-38

I see more Jaret Stoll than Brendan Morrison - and to even mention Stevie Y as a comparable is a riot. People can be as optimistic about Weiss as they want - but there is no real support for his development as a top line player. Pass on this trade without even a second thought.

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04-22-2005, 10:34 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaoil
Agree - I see nothing in Weiss' past that suggests he will be even a servicable 2nd line center. His numbers in the AHL this year are are abysmal for a prospect his age:

2004-05 San Antonio Rampage AHL 62gp 15-23-38

I see more Jaret Stoll than Brendan Morrison - and to even mention Stevie Y as a comparable is a riot. People can be as optimistic about Weiss as they want - but there is no real support for his development as a top line player. Pass on this trade without even a second thought.
The AHL does NOT say everything. The fact is, Weiss has played quiet well for hsi age and produced good on a team that is somewhat lacking direction and organization. The old Senators coach should really help in this matter. On the matter of AHL production, does that mean Jay Boumeester won't amount to much after his bad AHL year? I wouldn't be worried about Weiss AHL at all. The guy has some very ncie skill and doing well.

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04-23-2005, 09:35 AM
  #53
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I agree with you on this one, Patrick. People sometimes underestimate how hard it is for a young player to adjust to the AHL. That is particularly the case this year, with so many players who might be in the NHL assigned to AHL teams. I agree that a so-so year in the AHL does not suggest with should write Weiss off.

On the other hand, I still don't think he is going to develop in Florida.

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04-23-2005, 10:34 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
On the other hand, I still don't think he is going to develop in Florida.
I would have agreed with you UNTIL they hired Martin last year. I really think he is one of the better coaches at developing youth. I think that with him in place (sound youth coaching) Flordia will start comign together. I mean look at the Flames, all they needed was direction because the system was all over the place before Sutter came into the picture. I can see Martin having a similar presence to the team. Many people forget how young Weiss still is at this point, 22 years aold or so. I think he will continue to improve (in small strides) each year and peak around a 60-65 point #2 center. I mean 29 points in 50 games as a 21 year old is not bad at all.

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04-23-2005, 11:24 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaoil
Agree - I see nothing in Weiss' past that suggests he will be even a servicable 2nd line center. His numbers in the AHL this year are are abysmal for a prospect his age:

2004-05 San Antonio Rampage AHL 62gp 15-23-38

I see more Jaret Stoll than Brendan Morrison - and to even mention Stevie Y as a comparable is a riot. People can be as optimistic about Weiss as they want - but there is no real support for his development as a top line player. Pass on this trade without even a second thought.
You should've also included his numbers with Chicago since being loaned to get his complete numbers:

2004-05 Chicago Wolves AHL 18GP 7-9-16

2004-05 Totals AHL 80GP 22-32-54

If he's put in the right system with the right supporting cast, he's proven he can produce plenty of points (this yr with Chicago, last yr when paired with Horton & Nedorost). And for everyone that says he doesn't compare to Morrison. I point to the idea that several have said once he's fully mature and developed to be a 60-65 point player. Morrison had 60 points last season with Vancouver and to me is a player that is typically between 60-70 points. Most people consider him a 1st line center so why can't Weiss be a 1st liner in a few yrs producing around 60 pts as well??

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Old
04-25-2005, 10:16 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
The AHL does NOT say everything. The fact is, Weiss has played quiet well for hsi age and produced good on a team that is somewhat lacking direction and organization. The old Senators coach should really help in this matter. On the matter of AHL production, does that mean Jay Boumeester won't amount to much after his bad AHL year? I wouldn't be worried about Weiss AHL at all. The guy has some very ncie skill and doing well.
Go through the top 60 scoring forwards in the NHL last year, and out of all of them, count how many didn't put up at least a ppg (or reasonably close to it) at the AHL level by the time they were 20.

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04-25-2005, 10:19 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris

Rostislav Klesla had 155 NHL games under his belt when he was 21.
Phaneuf will be 21 soon and has yet registered 1 NHL game.
.
Phaneuf turned 20, 15 days ago. Stop being so liberal with the facts to make your point. Phaneuf turns 21 in a year, not "soon"

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04-25-2005, 11:55 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Go through the top 60 scoring forwards in the NHL last year, and out of all of them, count how many didn't put up at least a ppg (or reasonably close to it) at the AHL level by the time they were 20.
When Weiss was 20 (which wasn't this past season), he did put up close to a ppg pace in the AHL. He played 10 games and notched 9 points (6 goals, 3 assists) last yr before being called up to the NHL. And playing for Chicago this year, he was pretty close to a ppg pace as well (16pts in 18 games). It's obvious if you looked at what was happening in San Antonio that no one could really put up any kind of decent numbers this season. What I find impressive about Weiss' stats this season in San Antonio is his plus/minus. He was just a -1 and he was playing top line minutes against the other teams' best lines (and as a team, the Rampage were -28 if I calculated right). Scoring is only half of the game...the other half is defense and Weiss has proven he's capable of shutting down the opposition's top line while producing solid point totals.

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Old
04-25-2005, 01:09 PM
  #59
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I'm coming in really late to this thread but I have to say that as an Oilers fan I like this deal and would do it in a snap. 'Brewer's potential' is a dying argument IMO as he's not gonna get much better than he is now. He will never put up big numbers as he just can't seem to polish his offensive skills in the NHL. His big shot is a floater wrist shot from the point. He's someone who can eat up a lot of minutes and play a solid defensive bruising game; he's not a PP pointman.

Having said that, it still doesn't address Edmonton's need for a #1C but I've all but abandoned hope of getting one so adding another talented second line centre to the mix (York is already one for us) could do nicely and as mentioned Van Ryn can eat up Brewer's lost minutes. Edmonton's defensive prospects look solid and it only makes sense to deal from this area of strength.

When it's all said and done I don't think the deal would get done as FLA is giving up too much. If they were game tho, I'd do it in a sec.

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Old
04-25-2005, 01:51 PM
  #60
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I think some oiler fans are overlooking Jarret Stoll when trying to trade for Weiss.
He's been kinda type-cast in a checking role but i think he's got offensive potential. Wiess is faster and a better play-maker but Stoll is defensively superiror.
NHL numbers are very comparable taking total ice and pp time into account. Also Stoll was no offensive slouch in junior. As for Van Ryn, don't know what he's like defensively but obviously very good offensively but we should see how Bergeron
turns out (maybe another Van Ryn).
Lastly, about Brewer, sure he might be a little over-rated but he's another miscast player. I see him as a better version of Chris Phillipe and there's nothing with that. Trade some forwards for a defenseman instead of the opposite.

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Old
04-25-2005, 05:30 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Go through the top 60 scoring forwards in the NHL last year, and out of all of them, count how many didn't put up at least a ppg (or reasonably close to it) at the AHL level by the time they were 20.
I saw Ziggy Palffy as a 20-YO in the AHL. He was totally lost and looked like he would never be a pro. On the current Islander team, Trent Hunter had a undistinguished AHL start to his career. And, both of those guys struggled in a lower quality AHL. This year's version of the AHL is chock full of player who would be in the NHL if not for the lockout.

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04-25-2005, 05:48 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
I saw Ziggy Palffy as a 20-YO in the AHL. He was totally lost and looked like he would never be a pro. On the current Islander team, Trent Hunter had a undistinguished AHL start to his career. And, both of those guys struggled in a lower quality AHL. This year's version of the AHL is chock full of player who would be in the NHL if not for the lockout.
Palffy never played a game in the AHL... he played in the IHL in 1993-94 and again in 94-95 where he put up 100 points in 90 career games over those 2 years.

As for Hunter, I don't think anyone's claiming that he will ever be a top line player. I'm not saying you won't find a role in the NHL if you don't score a point per game, but the chances of you being a true impact player aren't very high. Weiss, at best, projects to be a 2nd line player.

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04-25-2005, 05:55 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Palffy never played a game in the AHL... he played in the IHL in 1993-94 and again in 94-95 where he put up 100 points in 90 career games over those 2 years.

As for Hunter, I don't think anyone's claiming that he will ever be a top line player. I'm not saying you won't find a role in the NHL if you don't score a point per game, but the chances of you being a true impact player aren't very high. Weiss, at best, projects to be a 2nd line player.
OK, I follow your point.

I personally don't think Weiss is going to be an impact player - I never did. But, my only point on this was that a shakey start in the AHL doesn't mean a player should be written off - particularly with the AHL as it is today (with guys like Spezza playing down there due to the lockout).

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04-26-2005, 02:34 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
"

I don't consider Morrison a top 10 center in the game but he is a top 15 center imo.
Sakic
Forsberg
Weight
Federov
Lecavalier
Sundin
Thornton
Langkow
Gomez
Richards
Lang
Marleau
Datsyuk
Modano
Koivu
Conroy
Roenick
Jokinen


No.

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04-26-2005, 02:57 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MainFlame
Sakic
Forsberg
Weight
Federov
Lecavalier
Sundin
Thornton
Langkow
Gomez
Richards
Lang
Marleau
Datsyuk
Modano
Koivu
Conroy
Roenick
Jokinen


No.
Conroy over Morrison? Likewise, Langkow, Marleau and Koivu are pushes at best...

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04-26-2005, 09:35 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerebral
Conroy over Morrison? Likewise, Langkow, Marleau and Koivu are pushes at best...
I'd probably rank Morrison above half the guys in that list, not only including the guys you mention but also Weight, Modano (seems to be in decline), Datsyuk (one season does not make a career - let's see him do it again).


I agree with the above Nuck fan. Morrison is easliy a top 15 guy in this league.

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Old
04-26-2005, 09:43 AM
  #67
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I would also put Morrison above Conroy and Weight at this point. However, that list leaves off Zhamnov, who is still right there at #10-15, IMO.

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04-26-2005, 10:00 AM
  #68
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Morrison is without a doubt underrated. As soon as someone brings up the fact he plays between 2 all-stars as a reason - or even the major factor - in his success, means he's being underrated.

Look at this guy's stats when he's not with the top 2!! Okay, I know that many a canuck fans have said this before, but those arguing that Morrison is a product of his line, seem to continually ignore this.

Look at his points when he was playing a 3rd/4th line role in Jersey... or even in Vancouver as a right winger... he has clearly been the more accomplished player - at any age - then Weiss has been to date.

Having said that, I don't dismiss the Weiss - Morrison comparisons... Weiss has upside still unrealized to get to Morrison's level, but his style is similar IMO. He doesn't have the speed Morrison does, but on-ice vision is close as is their defensive/offensive games being similar.

Still he's not the same player, and has a lot to prove to get to where Morrison is today.... it wasn't long ago that Isbister was also being compared to Bertuzzi, until Isbister established himself as a regular NHLer... Weiss hasn't yet done that... wait till he finds his niche in the NHL and then see what kind of player he is. He definitely has the potential IMO to be a better player than Morrison - and could be among the top 10 centers in the game in his prime... but right now the comparison is only good in terms of style IMO, as Weiss has a long way to go to prove himself as good an NHLer as Morrison is right now.

Morrison has been dominant at every level he's played at... even as a young player in a system that didn't use him in a top 6 role, he was successful. How many established players today can get 46 pts in a 3rd line role on a defense first team? let alone doing it in their rookie years as 22 yr olds? After getting 84 pts in the AHL as a 21 YO, he was called up for a late season run with the Devils, where he put up 9 pts in 11 games... came back next season as a rookie still and put up 46 pts in 76 games. Where was Naslund and Bertuzzi then?? the guy didn't even play on the top 2 units there.

When Weiss has proven that, we can start talking about what he'll do when he's in his prime compared to Morrison. As far as style goes, I agree there are similarities, but it takes a lot more than similarities in style to be measured in similarities in NHL production and effectiveness to their respective teams.

Right now Morrison is a top 15 center in the game IMO... Weiss has the potential to be more than that IMO, but right now he's not close to there... whether he gets there or not, remains to be seen. Most players never hit their ceilings in terms of potential... personally I see Weiss develop into a solid 2nd line center, but I think it won't happen until he gets out of Florida... I don't see him reaching his potential as most players don't, but I think he will be a solid NHLer with a bright future, just not a top liner.

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Old
04-26-2005, 10:19 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury
I would also put Morrison above Conroy and Weight at this point. However, that list leaves off Zhamnov, who is still right there at #10-15, IMO.
I'm not a Zhamnov fan, and I'd definitely take all of the players on that list before him as well as a few others. I certainly don't see him as top 15 - not even close to be honest. I wouldn't even put him in the top 20.

In addition to the 15 on the above list and Morrison, centers I'd take before Zhamnov include Spezza, Yashin (even with all his baggage), Legwand, Arnott, Drury, and Brierre. There are probably a few more specialized players that I'd rather have overall than Zhamnov (like Peca, Mccauley, Madden).

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