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04-13-2013, 04:28 PM
  #501
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Originally Posted by Noob616 View Post
Well then we have to take out the yearly outliers (your Brian Eliott/Mike Smith types) that come up every year, because I don't think anyone would rather us have Eliott than Price.
No because we are not arguing who would you rather have, we are arguing whether Price is elite (i.e. posts elite numbers)

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04-13-2013, 04:31 PM
  #502
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Before I begin, I would like to thank you for your obviously well thought out response. It's quite clear we will never agree on the subject. But let's just get a few things straight:

1) It's not simply 9 out of 17. That's not that great. It's the combination of playing 30+ games, being 9th in SV%, 4th in GAA, 4th in wins, AND 5th in shutouts that makes it great. Honestly. Why on Earth does it make any sense to include goalies who don't play that often? If they are supposedly on Price's level, then wouldn't their teams play them more than 9 or 10 games out of 40? This makes no sense whatsoever. You have a guy who has a .915 SV% and has played 3/4 of the schedule, but the guy who has a .920 SV% and played only 10 games is some how better?

2) GAA is not a team stat. Not even close. In my opinion it is the only legitimate stat that you should look at when evaluating a goaltender's performance, with a close second being shutouts. They tell you the goaltenders who a) let in the fewest goals on average, and b) have the largest number of perfect games. SV% is artifically inflated/deflated more often than not.

3) Elite: "A group of people considered to be the best in a particular society or category, esp. because of their power, talent, or wealth."

I consider Price to be in the category of netminders right at the top of the league (although Lundqvist is the unquestioned number 1 right now) The next tier (still elite even though you aren't Lundqvist) has Price, Rinne, Miller, and Rask in it. That's it. I don't think there are any better than these 5.

4) Look at career SV% leaders for active goaltenders in the NHL (min. 250 GP).

http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ct_active.html

Price is 7th. Pretty elite. Now let's take away Hiller, Luongo, and Vokoun because they aren't number 1 starters anymore. Where does Price end up? Wow. 4th among active goalies. Now THAT'S elite.

What's that? He even places in the top 10 when you include ALL goaltenders in NHL history with over 250 games?

http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ct_career.html

How is THAT not elite?

5) Yes, Lundqvist, Miller, Hasek, and Kipper were all late round picks. They never won any individual hardware until later in their careers, with Hasek being the only cup winner, in a backup's role nonetheless. So they couldn't be elite goalies until they won something? Price is at the age now when most of those guys were just getting into the NHL. Price has outperformed them at the same age simply by being in the NHL. Why should we expect that to change in the future? How does that take anything away from Price's elite status?

And how many Martin Brodeur's have there been in NHL history? 1? Price is obviously not that guy, so let's not make unfair comparisons. That does not for a second mean he is not an elite goaltender. He might win 5 Vezina's from here until the time he is 31 for all we know.

6) Yes, wins are all I care about. NOT the number of wins, or winning percentage. Those come and go with the team in front of him. I want the goalie who gives the team the best chance of winning every single game. I believe, and so do most knowledgeable hockey people, that Price is among the best in the league when it comes to that regard.

7) The cap hit is a non issue. Why shouldn't he be paid 10% of the cap? He plays the full 60 minutes for 75% of our games in the entire season! Is Price overpaid? I'm not so sure when you look at his body of work, consistency, and untapped potential. Does it matter to me? Not a chance. I can't change how much he makes and it doesn't have an adverse effect on our ability to field a competitive team so why would I?

Fans like you are the reason I wish the NHL would implement a gag order on salary disclosure. People want to run the guy down because he makes a lot of money, while being completely oblivious to the fact that there are less than a handful of goalies who can do a similar job to him over a long period of time. There are even less who could do a better one. Be careful what you wish for.


8) So when it comes to my checklist for determining elite-ness, I like to go with consistency combined with results. Using the definition above:

Price consistently ranks above the average at his position in:

- Games played? Check.
- GAA? Check.
- SV%? Check.
- Wins? Check.
- Shutouts? Check.

So tell me: How is a goalie who is above average, year in, year out in virtually everything not elite?
It's not true what you are saying:

2012-2013 Price 23rd in Save %, 5th in Wins, 13th in GAA
2011-2012 Price 20th in Save %, 21st in Wins, 18th in GAA
2010-2011 Price 7th in Save %, 1st in Wins, 10th in GAA
2009-2010 Price 21st in Save %, 37th in Wins, 31st in GAA
2008-2009 Price 31st in Save %, 24th in Wins, 31st in GAA

Average: 20.4 in Save%, 17.6 in Wins, 20.6 in GAA,

Your stats are ridiculous. You take away all goalies who haven't played at least 250 games in the league, then you take away KNOWN legit starters like Luongo out just because of his situation in Vancouver .. (don't get it twisted. Luongo is a starter!)

You are picking and choosing stats and removing half the field because of GP and current situation. You have to include goalies who don't always play because they're might be a "hasek" in there, there might be a bobrovsky or halak in there, there might be a bishop in there and lastly, because they FORM with Price, what we call NHL goaltending.

Budaj is 7-1-1 for example. If I was coach, Budaj would have started already 15 games for me. Does that mean Budaj is suddenly better? No but it means I value Budaj more.

Another thing to take into consideration is money because if Price is making 6.5, you bet they will try to get him going by constantly playing him. Wins doesn't mean anything. I ask you again, is Fleury considred Elite? Reason I ask is because Fleury let in 6 goals against us but he got a "W" in his stats because his team scored 7.

Wins is a team stat.
GAA is also a team stat. If my team is always back and defending then guess what, I expect my GAA to be lower compared to if my team is constantly trying to attack and score (Oilers of the 80's).


Last edited by Traitor8: 04-13-2013 at 04:36 PM.
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04-13-2013, 04:33 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by ryanwb View Post
Price consistently ranks above the average at his position in:

- Games played? Check.
- GAA? Check.
- SV%? Check.
- Wins? Check.
- Shutouts? Check.

So tell me: How is a goalie who is above average, year in, year out in virtually everything not elite?
Man, you just don't want to see the facts... If anything Price is below avg stats wise.

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04-13-2013, 04:39 PM
  #504
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Man, you just don't want to see the facts... If anything Price is below avg stats wise.
So, you consider Khubodin an above average goalie ?

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04-13-2013, 04:39 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by Carey Cost View Post
Man, you just don't want to see the facts... If anything Price is below avg stats wise.
Well he removed all goalies who are no longer in the league (like Tim Thomas) then he removes all goalies who haven't played at least 250 Games (so Fasth, Bishop, Rask, etc.) then he removed all goalies who are not starting because some teams have two #1 (Luongo) and he came up with those stats...


Last edited by Traitor8: 04-13-2013 at 04:46 PM.
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04-13-2013, 04:59 PM
  #506
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That's like going to a job and saying "well if you remove the production of all the guys that recently retired and then if you remove the production of all the guys that don't have at least 5 years of experience, and then remove the guys who are not performing at a top level right now (for example, sickness, paternity leave, maternity leave, vacation, personnel distress), I'm a top producer!"

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04-13-2013, 05:03 PM
  #507
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It's not true what you are saying:

2012-2013 Price 23rd in Save %, 5th in Wins, 13th in GAA
2011-2012 Price 20th in Save %, 21st in Wins, 18th in GAA
2010-2011 Price 7th in Save %, 1st in Wins, 10th in GAA
2009-2010 Price 21st in Save %, 37th in Wins, 31st in GAA
2008-2009 Price 31st in Save %, 24th in Wins, 31st in GAA

Average: 20.4 in Save%, 17.6 in Wins, 20.6 in GAA,
You can't just take the average of where he finished each season. As has been previously stated, players like Elliot cannot come into this discussion. It's absurd. You have to look at only number 1 goalies in the NHL. Apples to oranges. It's called sample size, and the larger one you have, the more accurate your result is likely to be.

Quote:
Your stats are ridiculous. You take away all goalies who haven't played at least 250 games in the league, then you take away KNOWN legit starters like Luongo out just because of his situation in Vancouver .. (don't get it twisted. Luongo is a starter!)
Then why are they paying him to sit on the bench while Schneider has started what? 13 of the last 14? But he's a starter? He might have starter ability and talent, but he is NOT a starter.

Quote:
You are picking and choosing stats and removing half the field because of GP and current situation. You have to include goalies who don't always play because they're might be a "hasek" in there, there might be a bobrovsky or halak in there, there might be a bishop in there and lastly, because they FORM with Price, what we call NHL goaltending.
Right. They form NHL goaltending. But because of small sample sizes, we have no idea if they are what they call "statistical anomalies". It's simple really. You don't HAVE to include goalies who don't always play because it makes more sense to not include him, since it is likely they are what we call "outliers". Since when is a guy with .915% over 35 games not as good as a guy with .920 over 10 games? Remember Andrew Raycroft? Won the Calder. Remember Jim Carrey? Won the Vezina. Remember when Bobrovsky couldn't win the job in Philly to save his life, and couldn't even beat out Steve Mason at the beginning of the season? Remember when Ben Bishop hasn't proven anything in the NHL at this point, and just got lit up for 6 goals his last time out? Remember Jonathan Quick? Last year's Conn Smythe winner who now has a .897 SV%?

Sure there might be a Hasek in there somewhere. Maybe even a Halak. But for every one of those there are many, many more who never replicate that success ever again. Price is not one of those. So when I say he is elite, this is what I mean. He is among the leaders in his position every year without fail.

Quote:
Budaj is 7-1-1 for example. If I was coach, Budaj would have started already 15 games for me. Does that mean Budaj is suddenly better? No but it means I value Budaj more.
Budaj? The guy who can't win a number 1 job and was allowed to walk from Colorado so that Semyon Varlamov could have the job? The guy who willingly accepted a 1.4/year deal because he KNOWS that he isn't a number 1 goalie in the NHL? Why would you value a guy like that over one who has proven to be capable of handling a large workload and putting up above average stats, despite only being 25 years of age.

Quote:
Another thing to take into consideration is money because if Price is making 6.5, you bet they will try to get him going by constantly playing him. Wins doesn't mean anything. I ask you again, is Fleury considred Elite? Reason I ask is because Fleury let in 6 goals against us but he got a "W" in his stats because his team scored 7.
No, Fleury is not elite. I really wish you would have read my entire response. Yes, I said wins are the most important thing. NOT the number of wins, or the winning percentage. The guy who gives you the best chance to win should be in the net. Price is that guy.

Quote:
GAA is also a team stat. If my team is always back and defending then guess what, I expect my GAA to be lower compared to if my team is constantly trying to attack and score (Oilers of the 80's).
If your team is always back defending you should probably fire your coach. GAA is not a team stat, not when it applies to individual goaltenders. It is a team influenced stat, yes. But not a team stat. Generally speaking, you want a guy who gives up fewer goals/game than the other guy.

You take the goalie with the lower GAA, because frankly he gives up less goals. Less goals = more wins. More wins = happy fans.

Except in Montreal.

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04-13-2013, 05:07 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by ryanwb View Post
You can't just take the average of where he finished each season. As has been previously stated, players like Elliot cannot come into this discussion. It's absurd. You have to look at only number 1 goalies in the NHL. Apples to oranges. It's called sample size, and the larger one you have, the more accurate your result is likely to be.


Then why are they paying him to sit on the bench while Schneider has started what? 13 of the last 14? But he's a starter? He might have starter ability and talent, but he is NOT a starter.



Right. They form NHL goaltending. But because of small sample sizes, we have no idea if they are what they call "statistical anomalies". It's simple really. You don't HAVE to include goalies who don't always play because it makes more sense to not include him, since it is likely they are what we call "outliers". Since when is a guy with .915% over 35 games not as good as a guy with .920 over 10 games? Remember Andrew Raycroft? Won the Calder. Remember Jim Carrey? Won the Vezina. Remember when Bobrovsky couldn't win the job in Philly to save his life, and couldn't even beat out Steve Mason at the beginning of the season? Remember when Ben Bishop hasn't proven anything in the NHL at this point, and just got lit up for 6 goals his last time out? Remember Jonathan Quick? Last year's Conn Smythe winner who now has a .897 SV%?

Sure there might be a Hasek in there somewhere. Maybe even a Halak. But for every one of those there are many, many more who never replicate that success ever again. Price is not one of those. So when I say he is elite, this is what I mean. He is among the leaders in his position every year without fail.



Budaj? The guy who can't win a number 1 job and was allowed to walk from Colorado so that Semyon Varlamov could have the job? The guy who willingly accepted a 1.4/year deal because he KNOWS that he isn't a number 1 goalie in the NHL? Why would you value a guy like that over one who has proven to be capable of handling a large workload and putting up above average stats, despite only being 25 years of age.

No, Fleury is not elite. I really wish you would have read my entire response. Yes, I said wins are the most important thing. NOT the number of wins, or the winning percentage. The guy who gives you the best chance to win should be in the net. Price is that guy.


If your team is always back defending you should probably fire your coach. GAA is not a team stat, not when it applies to individual goaltenders. It is a team influenced stat, yes. But not a team stat. Generally speaking, you want a guy who gives up fewer goals/game than the other guy.

You take the goalie with the lower GAA, because frankly he gives up less goals. Less goals = more wins. More wins = happy fans.

Except in Montreal.
Budaj is 7-1-1, has lower GAA, higher save % and more winning percentage so he should start more games.

There's no point in arguing because you think Luongo is not a starter. I got an idea from you, if you remove all goalies who's last name doesn't start with "P", Price will be #1! Yes! We found a way!

Statistical anamolies? If anything Price being elite is an anamolie...

Remember when he lost his job to Huet?
Remember when he lost his job to Halak?
Remember when he chocked in the playoffs on 2 different occasions?

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04-13-2013, 05:18 PM
  #509
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Then why are they paying him to sit on the bench while Schneider has started what? 13 of the last 14? But he's a starter? He might have starter ability and talent, but he is NOT a starter.
.
You lost all credibility here

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04-13-2013, 05:23 PM
  #510
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You lost all credibility here
Really? Then answer me this question:

Is the Vancouver Canucks starting goaltender Roberto Luongo?

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04-13-2013, 05:42 PM
  #511
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Really? Then answer me this question:

Is the Vancouver Canucks starting goaltender Roberto Luongo?
By the same logic, Malkin is not a 1st line Center

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04-13-2013, 06:00 PM
  #512
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By the same logic, Malkin is not a 1st line Center
Theres only one goalie. Malikn can be moved to the wing

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04-13-2013, 06:04 PM
  #513
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Theres only one goalie. Malikn can be moved to the wing
I hope you got my point though. It's not sufficient to say "if player X is not starting in team Y then he's not a starting goalie in the league"

This would mean that Luongo is not a starter but Bryzgalov is!

To prove Luongo is not a starter, you would have to give me 30 goalies that are better than him.

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04-13-2013, 06:10 PM
  #514
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Your argument doesn't hold because if we allow 40 shots, it follows that there were more opportunities to score hence Price had to be stellar and save 97.5 % of shots.
Have you read my post? I said scoring chances are not always a fix percentage of the total shots therefore your argument isn't valid.

Carey Price has been a very constant starter since Halak got traded. Any team in the NHL that don't have have that luxury would dream of having 1.

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04-13-2013, 06:19 PM
  #515
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By the same logic, Malkin is not a 1st line Center
That's not the same logic at all. It would be like saying Malkin's production is indicative of 2nd line centers in the NHL. Which it's clearly not. That is what we call a "statistical anomaly". Remember those?

The logic goes like this: we can't use Luongo's stats this season because he has so few games played. That's it. So why should we compare him to a guy who has played twice as many (or more) games?

I want guys who play the majority of games for their team. If you are elite, then you are surely the starter for your team right?

So there are about 25 goalies who are entrenched in the starter's role in the NHL for their respective club. Out of those players (i.e the 30+ club), Price is near the top in all of the stats, and has been from year to year, proving he is not a fluke.

THAT is why Price is elite.

Tough start tonight.

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04-13-2013, 06:20 PM
  #516
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I hope you got my point though. It's not sufficient to say "if player X is not starting in team Y then he's not a starting goalie in the league"

This would mean that Luongo is not a starter but Bryzgalov is!

To prove Luongo is not a starter, you would have to give me 30 goalies that are better than him.
Luongo is not the starter this year. Are you seriously arguing against this?
Doesn't mean he wouldn't be the starter in Toronto, but for this season, yes, he's not a starter.

Corey Schneider is the starter in Vancouver.

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04-13-2013, 06:23 PM
  #517
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What's the difference between Kim Jung Un and a price hater? There's none. They both can't be reasoned with.

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04-13-2013, 06:33 PM
  #518
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That's not the same logic at all. It would be like saying Malkin's production is indicative of 2nd line centers in the NHL. Which it's clearly not. That is what we call a "statistical anomaly". Remember those?

The logic goes like this: we can't use Luongo's stats this season because he has so few games played. That's it. So why should we compare him to a guy who has played twice as many (or more) games?

I want guys who play the majority of games for their team. If you are elite, then you are surely the starter for your team right?

So there are about 25 goalies who are entrenched in the starter's role in the NHL for their respective club. Out of those players (i.e the 30+ club), Price is near the top in all of the stats, and has been from year to year, proving he is not a fluke.

THAT is why Price is elite.

Tough start tonight.
Seems like your suggesting Luongo isn't elite, when he has a resume that is ten fold that of Price's. His contract is why Vancouver wants to move him. Not because he can't play.

BTW: Price just let in a real stinker lol

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04-13-2013, 06:33 PM
  #519
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So...after that 2nd one I take back everything I said....

(kidding obviously but that was bad).

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04-13-2013, 06:37 PM
  #520
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So...after that 2nd one I take back everything I said....

(kidding obviously but that was bad).
Hahahahaha master of choking prelude to playoffs?

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04-13-2013, 06:38 PM
  #521
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Contract looks bad so far.

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04-13-2013, 06:40 PM
  #522
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Trade price for thomas!!!!

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04-13-2013, 06:43 PM
  #523
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The thing with price is when he chockes he chokes hard and you better pull him off quick... i would have pull him after the 2nd

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04-13-2013, 06:50 PM
  #524
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The thing with price is when he chockes he chokes hard and you better pull him off quick... i would have pull him after the 2nd
I agree

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04-13-2013, 06:51 PM
  #525
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Typical of Price to gag in a big game in April.

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