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100 Greatest NHL players

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Old
05-02-2005, 09:42 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by mcphee
John Ferguson was gainfully employed because mgmt. didn't want their best players settling scores the way the Rocket had to. Orr played on one of the toughest teams in NHL history,though he fought his own battles all too often. During the exhibition season of 74-75, Mtl. sent the message against the Flyers that they weren't going to be pushed around. I'm sure a Pens fan can list the tough guys they've had over the years. The most greatly exagerrated stat in hockey was the number of shifts Semenko actually played with #99. Revisionist history. I will concede that the 70's Habs often were matter of fact after goals as they seemed to want to send a message that they could score at will. I can't say that the 80's Isles or Oilers were any different. There were a lot of stories of some of the Oilers guys being pretty arrogant, laughing on the bench,having the trainer contact women in the crowd, the stories didn't usually involve Gretzky though. I guess he was too busy perfecting his female 8th point of the night celebration. Does anyone remember the point we're arguing here ?
Its not about the number of fights you get into or wehther the bodyguard is your linemate. I mean McSorley was included in the Kings trade on the request of 99. But was a defencemen. Thsi guy was willing to club another player over the head if he had to. No wonder 99 wanted hm. The bodyguard just had to be on the team and willing to sacrifice for his meal ticket. Thats all and only 99 had one.

McPhee with your knowledge you have to say that Guy took pounding everytime he played in Boston. Remember the 77 finals where they threatened to kill him in boston? Did Guy hide behind a bodyguard and whoop it up with a big lead against Chicago in a 10-5 playoff game?

ps. How well did Denis Savard do in the East after coming from a run and gun hang at centre conference like the West?

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05-02-2005, 09:52 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by chooch
ps. How well did Denis Savard do in the East after coming from a run and gun hang at centre conference like the West?
Smythe. Norris. Night. Day.

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05-03-2005, 03:29 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by chooch
Its not about the number of fights you get into or wehther the bodyguard is your linemate. I mean McSorley was included in the Kings trade on the request of 99. But was a defencemen. Thsi guy was willing to club another player over the head if he had to. No wonder 99 wanted hm. The bodyguard just had to be on the team and willing to sacrifice for his meal ticket. Thats all and only 99 had one.

McPhee with your knowledge you have to say that Guy took pounding everytime he played in Boston. Remember the 77 finals where they threatened to kill him in boston? Did Guy hide behind a bodyguard and whoop it up with a big lead against Chicago in a 10-5 playoff game?

ps. How well did Denis Savard do in the East after coming from a run and gun hang at centre conference like the West?
How much older was Denis Savard?

This guy is ridiculous...

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05-03-2005, 07:08 AM
  #204
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I'm not sure why a bodyguard for Gretzky is being frowned upon. Ask any Pens fan and they'll tell you that they wish Lemieux had a true heavyweight to protect him. Coming from a BM (before Mario) Pens fan, I've always found it odd that the Pens get a once in a lifetime type of player and fail to get someone better than Jay Caufeild or Richard Zemlak to protect him. I remember stuff like the David Shaw axing, Chris Nilan just going up to him and punching him in the face, and people hacking at him with impunity. It was almost hard to watch goons that could hardly skate and Dan Quinn, Randy Cunnyworth, ect. come to his aid. Until Rick Tocchet came along in 92, the Pens had never had a true enforcer for Lemieux. By that time he had taken way to many cheapshots and the damage was done. I used to be so jealous of teams with Probert, Secord, Semenko, or even a Jay Miller.

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05-03-2005, 03:19 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by chooch
Its not about the number of fights you get into or wehther the bodyguard is your linemate. I mean McSorley was included in the Kings trade on the request of 99. But was a defencemen. Thsi guy was willing to club another player over the head if he had to. No wonder 99 wanted hm. The bodyguard just had to be on the team and willing to sacrifice for his meal ticket. Thats all and only 99 had one.

McPhee with your knowledge you have to say that Guy took pounding everytime he played in Boston. Remember the 77 finals where they threatened to kill him in boston? Did Guy hide behind a bodyguard and whoop it up with a big lead against Chicago in a 10-5 playoff game?

ps. How well did Denis Savard do in the East after coming from a run and gun hang at centre conference like the West?
Chooch, now you're mixing up the meaning of bodyguard. Some frootloop made a death threat against Lafleur and they engaged actual security. You know, Lafleur against Boston was always a highlight. Like a lot of stars, he had his best games against them, which stands to reason, with them being Mtl's chief and most respected rival since about 68. I don't know that he took that much of a beating against them. Bouchard,Robinson, Chartraw,Risebrough, Tremblay, all got involved when needed. Marcotte always had the Lafleur assignment and he was a respected, tough but clean player, a lot like Gainey. There were incidents with other guys, Milbury and Lafleur I guess, but the Wensinks and Jonathans got involved with the Lupiens' and co. With Edmonton, keep in mind that the league evolved in the early to mid 80's and the free wheeling stuff had the old timers griping about who would have been hit in their day. I think the best insurance policy the Oilers had was Messier. He was fearsome and a friggin' nut. He also benefited from Gordie Howe rules, you couldn't penalize every elbow or cross check, he'd never be on the ice. If it was me, I wouldn't be too rambunctious if I knew Messier was playing th enext shift.

Chooch, one thing to keep in mind, Lafleur against Boston in playoffs is the time when legends get made. Sure he'd take shots and get extra attention and the stories are there about how he scored the big goals. 2 fierce rivals keep in mind. When Edmonton faced Calgary, esp. in some of those great playoffs, it was a similar story. The Flames hit everything they could catch. There weren't free rides.

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05-03-2005, 07:54 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by mcphee
Chooch, now you're mixing up the meaning of bodyguard. Some frootloop made a death threat against Lafleur and they engaged actual security. You know, Lafleur against Boston was always a highlight. Like a lot of stars, he had his best games against them, which stands to reason, with them being Mtl's chief and most respected rival since about 68. I don't know that he took that much of a beating against them. Bouchard,Robinson, Chartraw,Risebrough, Tremblay, all got involved when needed. Marcotte always had the Lafleur assignment and he was a respected, tough but clean player, a lot like Gainey. There were incidents with other guys, Milbury and Lafleur I guess, but the Wensinks and Jonathans got involved with the Lupiens' and co. With Edmonton, keep in mind that the league evolved in the early to mid 80's and the free wheeling stuff had the old timers griping about who would have been hit in their day. I think the best insurance policy the Oilers had was Messier. He was fearsome and a friggin' nut. He also benefited from Gordie Howe rules, you couldn't penalize every elbow or cross check, he'd never be on the ice. If it was me, I wouldn't be too rambunctious if I knew Messier was playing th enext shift.

Chooch, one thing to keep in mind, Lafleur against Boston in playoffs is the time when legends get made. Sure he'd take shots and get extra attention and the stories are there about how he scored the big goals. 2 fierce rivals keep in mind. When Edmonton faced Calgary, esp. in some of those great playoffs, it was a similar story. The Flames hit everything they could catch. There weren't free rides.
Your opinion is always given serious weight - I know you saw them play. Did you go to RPI too?.

Did it tick you off that 99 wouldnt back Gordie Howe (making a pension of $800 a month) in the oldtimers battle against the NHL? Or that 99 always backed Bettman like over the Hull goal?

Or that he whooped it up late in the game against the likes of Winterpeg - the Rocket wouldnt have scored his 50th goal in 50 games into an empty net with a big lead and then danced around. And the Rocket would have punched out anyone who did do that.

There was an unwritten code - you didnt run up a big lead and whoop it up; if you did score late in the game with a big lead you kept your head down.

Heck did the Rocket dance around at all after scoring or Jean or Mario or Bobby or Guy or Yzerman?? Did the Rocket have Elmer Lach running shotgun?

Ever see 99 take a slash to the arms - he wasnt that fast to evade this stuff.
Istill believ he was a great offensive player - 2nd best of his generation and 2nd most valuable player on the oilers.

And playing Cowtown wasnt the same as playing Boston in the finals. ps teh frootloop was cherry after guy shot it at milbury in game 2.

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05-03-2005, 08:43 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by chooch
Your opinion is always given serious weight - I know you saw them play. Did you go to RPI too?.

Did it tick you off that 99 wouldnt back Gordie Howe (making a pension of $800 a month) in the oldtimers battle against the NHL? Or that 99 always backed Bettman like over the Hull goal?

Or that he whooped it up late in the game against the likes of Winterpeg - the Rocket wouldnt have scored his 50th goal in 50 games into an empty net with a big lead and then danced around. And the Rocket would have punched out anyone who did do that.

There was an unwritten code - you didnt run up a big lead and whoop it up; if you did score late in the game with a big lead you kept your head down.

Heck did the Rocket dance around at all after scoring or Jean or Mario or Bobby or Guy or Yzerman?? Did the Rocket have Elmer Lach running shotgun?

Ever see 99 take a slash to the arms - he wasnt that fast to evade this stuff.
Istill believ he was a great offensive player - 2nd best of his generation and 2nd most valuable player on the oilers.

And playing Cowtown wasnt the same as playing Boston in the finals. ps teh frootloop was cherry after guy shot it at milbury in game 2.
Gretzky is entitled to do what he wants and back who he wants. That doesn't change the fact that he's the greatest of all-time.

This is ridiculous, you absolve Mario completely for the whole **** scandal even thoguh for all you know he could have participated since he was in the room, you are willing to not hold Guy's smoking and drinking for what is was, his own choice, but you continue to harp on these little things Wayne has done? Give me a break.

Also, he scored his 50th in 39 against Philly, not Winnipeg. Way to watch hockey. Noen the less, you completely ignore the fact that he had already scored for in the game and naturally after you shatter an all-time record, empty net or not, you will celebrate.

Also, what were you watching when Mario whooped it up after scoring, because he did it just as much as Wayne... The Rocket though, no, he didn't have Elmer Lach, he had some of the greatest players of all-time. Maybe in your books Mike Krusheylniski or Blair Mcdonald are just as good as Dickie Moore?

So, he couldn't evade slashes to the arms, but he was a wimp because instead of fighting the guy he scored on them... Nothing better to get back at your opponent than shaking off the dirty play and burying one behind his keeper.

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05-03-2005, 09:27 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by DrMoses
Gretzky is entitled to do what he wants and back who he wants. That doesn't change the fact that he's the greatest of all-time.

This is ridiculous, you absolve Mario completely for the whole **** scandal even thoguh for all you know he could have participated since he was in the room, you are willing to not hold Guy's smoking and drinking for what is was, his own choice, but you continue to harp on these little things Wayne has done? Give me a break.

Also, he scored his 50th in 39 against Philly, not Winnipeg. Way to watch hockey. Noen the less, you completely ignore the fact that he had already scored for in the game and naturally after you shatter an all-time record, empty net or not, you will celebrate.

Also, what were you watching when Mario whooped it up after scoring, because he did it just as much as Wayne... The Rocket though, no, he didn't have Elmer Lach, he had some of the greatest players of all-time. Maybe in your books Mike Krusheylniski or Blair Mcdonald are just as good as Dickie Moore?

So, he couldn't evade slashes to the arms, but he was a wimp because instead of fighting the guy he scored on them... Nothing better to get back at your opponent than shaking off the dirty play and burying one behind his keeper.
The mario thing is totally a rumour - prove it!

I knew teh 50th goal was aginst Philly; what I as saying was that in games v. winnipeg or some team like that hed whoop whooop for nothing. And no mario rarely raised his stick.

what i was sayig about evading slashes was that he neevr got slashed bec he had a bodyguard . he wasnt fast enough to evade it on his own.

whatever...keep playing with your hockey cards.

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05-03-2005, 09:44 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by chooch
The mario thing is totally a rumour - prove it!
Who knows what happened but something did happen. It was in all of the papers back in '93. Dan Quinn was the alleged molester and Lemieux was said to be in the room. Nothing much came of it so I don't think that it was a big deal and anything that did happen must have been consensual. Lemieux did get sued by a model though. He was flipping pucks into the crowd when the model was struck in the face.

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05-03-2005, 10:07 PM
  #210
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Naslund is a top 100 player and Mats Sundin isn't

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05-03-2005, 11:21 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by chooch
The mario thing is totally a rumour - prove it!

I knew teh 50th goal was aginst Philly; what I as saying was that in games v. winnipeg or some team like that hed whoop whooop for nothing. And no mario rarely raised his stick.

what i was sayig about evading slashes was that he neevr got slashed bec he had a bodyguard . he wasnt fast enough to evade it on his own.

whatever...keep playing with your hockey cards.
He was whooping it up?

Prove it...

He wasn't fast enough to evade on his own? Maybe, but he had usually already made the pass anyway. He was always 1 step ahead.

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05-03-2005, 11:25 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by DrMoses
He was whooping it up?

Prove it...

He wasn't fast enough to evade on his own? Maybe, but he had usually already made the pass anyway. He was always 1 step ahead.
Yeah well if he had played in today's league he wouldnt be able to just go behind the nat and stay there as long as he wants. He may still be a step ahead but if he went behind the net everytime his soft ass wouldn't last very long. Someone would just crush him back there. Then again thats only if he didnt have his bodyguards.

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05-04-2005, 02:11 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Yeah well if he had played in today's league he wouldnt be able to just go behind the nat and stay there as long as he wants. He may still be a step ahead but if he went behind the net everytime his soft ass wouldn't last very long. Someone would just crush him back there. Then again thats only if he didnt have his bodyguards.
What makes you think he couldn't play behind the net these days? There's no proof for this at all. Players who aren't even close to Gretzky are effective behind the net in today's game.

Case in point, Mike Ribeiro. He is effective behind the net and he's 100X softer than Gretzky. If Ribeiro can do it, how the hell would Gretzky be too soft to do it? We're both Habs fans, and we probably both saw a lot of Ribs last year. If you deny Ribeiro isn't at least pretty good behind the net, you don't know what you're talking about.

So, we've established that in a "modern" NHL, a weak Mike Ribeiro who doesn't have 1/100th of the skill Gretzky does, can play behind the net. Therefore, Gretzky couldn't do it because........There's a break in logic here somewhere, but I can't seem to find it.

And you still didn't answer the other poster's question.

Also, why do you try to diminish what Wayne did on the ice? If you want to talk about things like backing the NHL in saying Hull's goal was good, I'm sure some people will agree. In fact, I think there are many people who dislike a lot of things he's done off the ice. (Countless ads, whiney speech at the olympics etc...to name a few) But how can you use that to even try to diminish what he did on the ice? That's just beyond absurd.

On the ice, he was clearly better than anyone in his generation. We're not talking about hypotheticals, we're talking pure facts. In this case, no one is close, period. He wasen't the best skater or the best shooter, or the toughest guy, but he was the best, end of story.

And comparing him to Lafleur is nonsensical. Seriously, try to find a Boston fan who compares Esposito to Gretzky and you'll see now ridiculous this is. You simply cannot diminish what Gretzky did on the ice. If you're mad at things he did off the ice, I'm sure there are many people who will feel the same way. But to try to take away what he did on the ice is beyond foolish.

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05-04-2005, 06:03 AM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Yeah well if he had played in today's league he wouldnt be able to just go behind the nat and stay there as long as he wants. He may still be a step ahead but if he went behind the net everytime his soft ass wouldn't last very long. Someone would just crush him back there. Then again thats only if he didnt have his bodyguards.
Half the time you say Gretzky scored a lot because he played with offensively talented players, the other half of the time you claim he always had bodyguards as linemates. Which is it?

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05-04-2005, 12:07 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by reckoning
Half the time you say Gretzky scored a lot because he played with offensively talented players, the other half of the time you claim he always had bodyguards as linemates. Which is it?
See... I tihnk i'm beginning to get it.

Mike Krusheylniski was not only one of the greatest offensive forces to sweep through the NHL, but he was also so insane that he struck bone chilling fear in the hearts of his opponents...

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05-04-2005, 01:30 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by DrMoses
See... I tihnk i'm beginning to get it.

Mike Krusheylniski was not only one of the greatest offensive forces to sweep through the NHL, but he was also so insane that he struck bone chilling fear in the hearts of his opponents...
Hey watch it. A guy I worked with played accordion at Krushelnyski's wedding. Get more of an obscure connection than that.

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05-04-2005, 04:25 PM
  #217
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Anyone trying to discredit Gretzky is a fool.

If his point totals were all inflated because he was in a weak division, how do you explain his dominance in the Canada Cup? Did he play against weak teams only there, as well?

How do you explain his dominance of the Habs in 1981? How do you explain his HUGE performances in 5 Cup Finals and the 1993 semis against Toronto?

The man scored against everybody under any circumstance with any teammates. He was the greatest scorer of all time and would have been no matter when or where he played.

Mario is #3 and would be no matter when or where he played.

Anyone trying to discredit either of them is a fool.

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05-04-2005, 04:40 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Anyone trying to discredit Gretzky is a fool.

If his point totals were all inflated because he was in a weak division, how do you explain his dominance in the Canada Cup? Did he play against weak teams only there, as well?

How do you explain his dominance of the Habs in 1981? How do you explain his HUGE performances in 5 Cup Finals and the 1993 semis against Toronto?

The man scored against everybody under any circumstance with any teammates. He was the greatest scorer of all time and would have been no matter when or where he played.

Mario is #3 and would be no matter when or where he played.

Anyone trying to discredit either of them is a fool.
Wow he dominated the canada cup! Big freaking deal. I could name a lot of players who dominated canada cups, doesnt make them the greatest at all.

His dominance of the habs in 81? He only had one great game where he had a had trick because of that stupid Sevigny who allowed bad goals (five hole, etc) and besides his final goal came with 5 seconds left. Yet another time where Gretzky pads his stats as his final goal didnt mean ****. His dominance of the leafs? How many goals had he scored before game 7? And in that game yeah he was great but he was lucky too. He just cricled the net and shot the puck at a skate and it went in. Talk about fluke. He was great dont get me wrong but your reasons have more holes then red light racicot.

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05-04-2005, 04:46 PM
  #219
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Wow he dominated the canada cup! Big freaking deal. I could name a lot of players who dominated canada cups, doesnt make them the greatest at all.

His dominance of the habs in 81? He only had one great game where he had a had trick because of that stupid Sevigny who allowed bad goals (five hole, etc) and besides his final goal came with 5 seconds left. Yet another time where Gretzky pads his stats as his final goal didnt mean ****. His dominance of the leafs? How many goals had he scored before game 7? And in that game yeah he was great but he was lucky too. He just cricled the net and shot the puck at a skate and it went in. Talk about fluke. He was great dont get me wrong but your reasons have more holes then red light racicot.
LMAO.

With each post your credibility is further soiled. Now I know that you have no idea what you are talking about.

In 1981, Gretzky had 5 assists in game 1 and 3 goals in game 3. I would call that dominant in a 3 game series. Your problem is that you are so biased you ignore facts, reason and common sense.

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05-04-2005, 04:49 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo
LMAO.

With each post your credibility is further soiled. Now I know that you have no idea what you are talking about.

In 1981, Gretzky had 5 assists in game 1 and 3 goals in game 3. I would call that dominant in a 3 game series. Your problem is that you are so biased you ignore facts, reason and common sense.
Did you even watch the montreal series rather then watching clips 25 years later? Better yet were you even 5 when it happened? Without Moog who was standing on is head and our stupid Sevigny allowing bad goal after bad goal, habs would've won. Gretzky even said it.

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05-04-2005, 04:52 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Did you even watch the montreal series rather then watching clips 25 years later? Better yet were you even 5 when it happened? Without Moog who was standing on is head and our stupid Sevigny allowing bad goal after bad goal, habs would've won. Gretzky even said it.
Gretzky is always polite but, the reason Sevigny looked so bad is because Gretzky lit him up like a Christmas tree.

Give credit where it is due and people will take you seriously. Moog won game 2, offense won games 1 and 3.

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05-04-2005, 04:54 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Gretzky is always polite but, the reason Sevigny looked so bad is because Gretzky lit him up like a Christmas tree.

Give credit where it is due and people will take you seriously. Moog won game 2, offense won games 1 and 3.
I'll give credit to him alright but he was great no doubt but he didn't win a game single handedly like Lafleur or Lemieux or Orr or Rocket used to do. And you honestly believe Gretzky would've scored as much vs. a guy like Roy?

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05-04-2005, 05:00 PM
  #223
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I'll give credit to him alright but he was great no doubt but he didn't win a game single handedly like Lafleur or Lemieux or Orr or Rocket used to do. And you honestly believe Gretzky would've scored as much vs. a guy like Roy?
Gretzky scored against every team, every goalie in every situation. He was the greatest scorer to ever play. Period. He would have won scoring titles by a large margin no matter what division he played in.

He won plenty of games single handedly, like any superstar has. You just never got to see it because you live in the East. Order some old games on DVD, you will see what I am talking about.

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05-04-2005, 05:03 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Gretzky scored against every team, every goalie in every situation. He was the greatest scorer to ever play. Period. He would have won scoring titles by a large margin no matter what division he played in.

He won plenty of games single handedly, like any superstar has. You just never got to see it because you live in the East. Order some old games on DVD, you will see what I am talking about.
I've watched Gretzky in the finals in those 80-s. Like the one in 83 where he couldnt even score a single goal. Or in 87 where he only scored 2 goals in 7 games vs. Philly. Gretzky did score vs. every team but you cant deny he was much more effective vs. cheap goalies then great ones. In his whole career Gretzky has only scored 2 goals vs. Roy! And only once vs. Hasek!

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05-04-2005, 05:04 PM
  #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
I've watched Gretzky in the finals in those 80-s. Like the one in 83 where he couldnt even score a single goal. Or in 87 where he only scored 2 goals in 7 games vs. Philly. Gretzky did score vs. every team but you cant deny he was much more effective vs. cheap goalies then great ones. In his whole career Gretzky has only scored 2 goals vs. Roy! And only once vs. Hasek!
LOL. How many assists did he get?

There's more to life than just goals.

BTW, give me the link to those stats.

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