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Who is the most overrated player of all time?

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Old
04-14-2013, 03:37 PM
  #126
DisgruntledGoat
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
One of Datsyuk's 97 point seasons was playing on the left wing for 92-point center and should-have-been Selke winner (and first-team center) Henrik Zetterberg.



So what you're saying is that Datsyuk playing a 40-goal scorer like Hossa (Fedorov never played with a 40-goal scorer, not even once), or a guy like Zetterberg who came close to or matched his production while playing better defense (Selke be damned).
Now the parameters have changed and the typical Fedorov excuses are coming out.

The fact that you are now resorting to the linemates argument to prove he's better than Datsyuk simply proves my point about him being overrated. If you're splitting hairs to prove that you're better offensively than Datsyuk, than you are not a top 20 center of all-time. Therefore: overrated.

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Fedorov was a Selke finalist the year before Gilmour won, and finished fourth the year Gilmour won. He was only in his fourth season when he nabbed his first win and in his sixth when he got his second. In his first six seasons, he had five consecutive seasons of top-four finishes (with three top-twos and two wins) and never did NOT receive at least one vote.
Again, changing the parameters. Gilmour vs Fedorov is the result of the following statement: Fedorov's 1994 is overrated because Gilmour did the exact same thing the year before. Selke finishes three years beforehand do not effect that statement.

Quote:
Fedorov's late-90s Selke slump was driven by the fact that his offense dropped off after his mid-90s peak; he was playing equal if not better defense. Another factor is the "media story" of Yzerman's defense. The media tends not to vote for two guys from one team, and if they'd rather vote for Yzerman when both are playing among the best, Fedorov doesn't get a vote. Even if he's the best or among the best.
You know, I don't disagree that the Selke voting has become ridiculous in the last twenty years. But I do find it hard to agree with the idea that a Red Wing didn't get his fair share when they've been handed out like candy in Detroit.

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Until he was injured in the 1993 playoff series between Toronto and Detroit, Steve Yzerman was the best player; despite the fact that Toronto was doing their best to get Gilmour out against him. Why was Toronto trying to get Gilmour against Yzerman? Two reasons. First, they wanted to shut down Yzerman. Second, they wanted to keep Gilmour AWAY from Fedorov, who was completely shutting down the Gilmour line. Has Yzerman not been injured (Game 3, IIRC), Detroit advances.
Gilmour had six points in the first three games of that series, and Detroit had the last line-change in two of those games. Good job, Sergei.

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Francis was completely legitimate. He was my Selke pick before they even announced the nominees. He should have probably been nominated for more Selkes than he was.
My apologies. I went backed and checked the thread I was thinking of, and I had you confused with someone else.

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Yes, but if Lemieux is REMOVED the voters would have given LaFontaine much more support because of how massive his season was. Again; LaFontaine scored 148 points. The only player to ever do that without the assistance of one of the "big four" was Steve Yzerman four years prior. He won the Pearson ahead of Lemieux (199 points, much better offensive support) and Gretzky (168 points, only beat teammate/PP linemate Bernie Nicholls by 18 points).
That's a huge stretch. Even with Lafontaine's big offensive edge, Gilmour still outpointed him in Hart votes almost 2-1.

At the end of day:
120+ points
Selke win
Hart runner-up

That's a strikingly similar run to Fedorov's mighty 1994 season, no matter how much anyone wants to try and spin it.

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Brind'Amour was very good defensively late in his career. But he was not as good as Lehtinen. Nobody was, save for a few stellar individual years. Jere Lehtinen should have five Selkes from 1998 to 2007, John Madden two, and Craig Conroy and Steve Yzerman one apiece. Lehtinen was so good that just by playing on the same line Mike Modano looked like he deserved to be a Selke finalist.
Off-topic, but I don't disagree. I liked Peca for it in 1999, and IMO, he was the best pure defensive forward of that era. I disagree on Yzerman. If there was a, 'hey, good career, here's a trophy' award during that era, it was his Selke win.

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Fedorov has 31 more goals and five fewer points in 236 fewer games. He has three seasons by adjusted points that beat Brind'Amour's peak offensive season; two of which he won the Selke in. He has another that's one adjusted point behind where he was fourth in Selke voting. Surprisingly, those are the only four seasons that beat Brind'Amour's second Selke season on adjusted points. Their careers almost directly overlap, with Brind'Amour starting a year earlier and retiring (from the NHL) a year later. Fedorov is 19% better in GPG, 14% better in APG, and 18% better in PPG.

And that's just considering the regular season. In 24 more playoff games, Fedorov scored an additional goal and an additional SIXTY-FOUR assists. For 65 more points in 24 playoff games.

Both players played plenty, so it's not like it's a small sample.

Fedorov was also one of the best playoff players of his era, playing elite defense and scoring about PPG (and even playing an entire series as a defenseman). Brind'Amour was... well... average.
Don't get me wrong, Fedorov is clearly better but its closer than some would like to think. Definitely more accurate than putting Fedorov in the conversation with Esposito, Clarke, Sakic, etc.

One thing on the topic of Brind'Amour: he should have won the Conn Smythe in 2006. That was a brilliant run, and it was ridiculous to give it to Cam Ward.

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Old
04-15-2013, 06:33 AM
  #127
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Gretzky, IMO. His Cups, awards, and records were well-earned by his on-ice exploits. However, retiring his number League-wide was an inappropriate act of overrating him as if he somehow deserves a place transcending even the Hall of Fame.


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04-15-2013, 06:41 AM
  #128
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Linden.

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04-15-2013, 07:15 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by NorthStar4Canes View Post
Gretzky, IMO. His Cups, awards, and records were well-earned by his on-ice exploits. However, retiring his number League-wide was an inappropriate act of overrating him as if he somehow deserves a place transcending even even the Hall of Fame.
he has more assists then anyone has in total points, won scoring titles on assists alone, and owns/owned literally half the record book....

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04-15-2013, 07:50 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
he has more assists then anyone has in total points, won scoring titles on assists alone, and owns/owned literally half the record book....
Yes, his accomplishments I'm well aware of having witnessed them taking place as his points accrued and records fell throughout his career. I took his well-known accomplishments into consideration when forming my opinion.

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04-15-2013, 08:06 AM
  #131
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I think Patrick Roy is slightly overrated in this forum.

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04-15-2013, 09:36 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
I think Patrick Roy is slightly overrated in this forum.
Whats your Top 10 in terms of goaltenders Yamaguchi?... I know you like Billy Smith, and thats certainly kosher, cool, arguable in relation to some of the others who do rank higher in terms general consensus here on hf. Personally, I like Sawchuk, he's my #1, then Plante etc however statistically & or in terms of technical play & performance they might rank behind Patrick Roy or Hasek. With me its more a question of preference, consideration of intagibles, character issues, psychological factors, whether or not I even like them as people etc. My own sets of criteria, and I do tend towards favouring the outliers, the insolent, rebels. Cips on their shoulders. Quixotic. Tempestuous. Head cases.

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04-15-2013, 09:38 AM
  #133
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Forsberg and Ovechkin

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04-15-2013, 09:40 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Whats your Top 10 in terms of goaltenders Yamaguchi?... I know you like Billy Smith, and thats certainly kosher, cool, arguable in relation to some of the others who do rank higher in terms general consensus here on hf. Personally, I like Sawchuk, he's my #1, then Plante etc however statistically & or in terms of technical play & performance they might rank behind Patrick Roy or Hasek. With me its more a question of preference, consideration of intagibles, character issues, psychological factors, whether or not I even like them as people etc. My own sets of criteria, and I do tend towards favouring the outliers, the insolent, rebels.


Sawchuk is a good choice too.

I think you saw my top 5. Now i'm thinking about making my new list - top 69 of all time netminders.

I will call my post - The Big 69 Between The Pipes.

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04-15-2013, 10:09 AM
  #135
Morgoth Bauglir
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
I think Patrick Roy is slightly overrated in this forum.
Three Conn Smythes say otherwise

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Old
04-15-2013, 10:20 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
Now the parameters have changed and the typical Fedorov excuses are coming out.
Ok, hand me a convincing case for Doug Harvey over Nicklas Lidstrom then. Harvey has poor offensive numbers compared to Lidstrom, who is the most dominant offensive defenseman of his era. And the most dominant defensive defenseman of his era.

Harvey led defensemen in scoring four times.
Lidstrom led defensemen in scoring five times, often by a fair margin.

Both are argued as "the best defensive defenseman ever". Lidstrom was the leading scorer among defensemen during his career by over 300 points. Harvey was 2nd among defensemen in points during his career.

Why does the HoH board rank Harvey over Lidstrom?

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The fact that you are now resorting to the linemates argument to prove he's better than Datsyuk simply proves my point about him being overrated. If you're splitting hairs to prove that you're better offensively than Datsyuk, than you are not a top 20 center of all-time. Therefore: overrated.
Let's look at a player whose career is not that dissimilar from Fedorov's in many ways.

Mark Messier.

Both players had a high offensive peak well above their career average and their prime numbers. Both players had excellent regular season careers, but move higher up because of their stellar playoff performances.

If the DPE is at early 1990s levels (6.5 instead of 5.5) Fedorov is a regular PPG center, and then has another 100-point outburst in 2002-03. If that happens, he probably wins more Selkes, also; people saw the raw numbers drop and said (and still say) "lazy Russian, doesn't play hard in the regular season" just because he played a defense-first role on a team that rolled four lines and never gave heavy duty to any one line.

Go ahead and take a guess on how many players have scored five goals in one game.

The answer is 44. Want to know some players not on the list?

Pavel Bure. Teemu Selanne. Alexander Mogilny. Pat LaFontaine. Jaromir Jagr. Joe Sakic. Steve Yzerman. Brett Hull. Mike Bossy. Bobby Hull. Gordie Howe.

But Sergei Fedorov did it. And he did it without getting 30 minutes a game the way Lemieux or Gretzky did in the 80s, or 60 minutes like Malone did.

Quote:
Again, changing the parameters. Gilmour vs Fedorov is the result of the following statement: Fedorov's 1994 is overrated because Gilmour did the exact same thing the year before. Selke finishes three years beforehand do not effect that statement.
Fedorov's high Selke finishes going into 1993-94 show that he was already considered a star defensive forward before that season. Gilmour was like early-90s Roenick or Larmer; pretty good offensively and pretty good defensively, and considered among of the best two-way guys, but nobody was going to give them a nod as "best defensive forward".

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You know, I don't disagree that the Selke voting has become ridiculous in the last twenty years. But I do find it hard to agree with the idea that a Red Wing didn't get his fair share when they've been handed out like candy in Detroit.
Part of the reason for that is because Detroit has chosen to build their team around elite two-way centers for the past 30 years.

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Gilmour had six points in the first three games of that series, and Detroit had the last line-change in two of those games. Good job, Sergei.
I didn't say Fedorov kept him off the scoresheet; I said that Fedorov shut down his line when they were on the ice together.

Quote:
That's a huge stretch. Even with Lafontaine's big offensive edge, Gilmour still outpointed him in Hart votes almost 2-1.

At the end of day:
120+ points
Selke win
Hart runner-up
Yes, but with Lemieux out, the voters will flock to LaFontaine in much greater numbers. Selanne and Yzerman would also gain a significant amount of support, though it's unlikely either would push past Gilmour. Gilmour's small contingent of supporters would not increase by nearly as much given his place on the scoring charts.

Quote:
That's a strikingly similar run to Fedorov's mighty 1994 season, no matter how much anyone wants to try and spin it.
I suppose it's similar in the same manner that Steve Chiasson's 47-point season in 1988-89 is basically equivalent to Ryan Suter's from 2011-12.

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Off-topic, but I don't disagree. I liked Peca for it in 1999, and IMO, he was the best pure defensive forward of that era. I disagree on Yzerman. If there was a, 'hey, good career, here's a trophy' award during that era, it was his Selke win.
I'm not one who normally uses "defensive stats", but Yzerman was on the ice for almost exactly the same number of GA/60 as Peca was. And Yzerman was one of the best, if not the best, at taking faceoffs in the NHL at the time. Peca lost more than he won; this was especially true on the PK. Yzerman won about 55% on the PK, 60% at ES, 65% on the PP, and 59% overall. Peca won 43% on the PK, just shy of 50% at ES (49.6% in over 1100 draws), and 52% on the PP.

There's no blocked shot data available on NHL.com until 2002-03 (and not available for 2003-04 either). That said, in 2002-03 Peca beats Yzerman 27 to 8 in blocked shots, but the GP differential is 66 to 16. In 2005-06, Peca wins the blocked shot contest; but that was Yzerman's last season after several years of playing on and off (but still managing at or near PPG) due to his knee and back injuries, and it's not a terribly fair comparison.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong, Fedorov is clearly better but its closer than some would like to think. Definitely more accurate than putting Fedorov in the conversation with Esposito, Clarke, Sakic, etc.

One thing on the topic of Brind'Amour: he should have won the Conn Smythe in 2006. That was a brilliant run, and it was ridiculous to give it to Cam Ward.
Pronger should have won it. Brind'Amour wasn't more important to the team than Ward. As important? Perhaps. Not more important.

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Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
he has more assists then anyone has in total points, won scoring titles on assists alone, and owns/owned literally half the record book....
And yet, he still wasn't better than Gordie Howe. Also, as far as owning the record book... what about Howe and Sawchuk? Why didn't they get their numbers retired league-wide based on your logic? They were both so far ahead of everyone else in career achievement that it seemed unthinkable for the longest time that anyone could ever catch them. Had Howe stayed with the Wings until 1980 instead of retiring and then returning to play in the WHA, and then with Hartford when they were absorbed, he'd still be the all-time goals and points leader. And would be given a heck of a lot more credit than he is now on all-time lists.

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04-15-2013, 10:35 AM
  #137
Morgoth Bauglir
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Ok, hand me a convincing case for Doug Harvey over Nicklas Lidstrom then. Harvey has poor offensive numbers compared to Lidstrom, who is the most dominant offensive defenseman of his era. And the most dominant defensive defenseman of his era.

Harvey led defensemen in scoring four times.
Lidstrom led defensemen in scoring five times, often by a fair margin.

Both are argued as "the best defensive defenseman ever". Lidstrom was the leading scorer among defensemen during his career by over 300 points. Harvey was 2nd among defensemen in points during his career.

Why does the HoH board rank Harvey over Lidstrom?



Let's look at a player whose career is not that dissimilar from Fedorov's in many ways.

Mark Messier.

Both players had a high offensive peak well above their career average and their prime numbers. Both players had excellent regular season careers, but move higher up because of their stellar playoff performances.

If the DPE is at early 1990s levels (6.5 instead of 5.5) Fedorov is a regular PPG center, and then has another 100-point outburst in 2002-03. If that happens, he probably wins more Selkes, also; people saw the raw numbers drop and said (and still say) "lazy Russian, doesn't play hard in the regular season" just because he played a defense-first role on a team that rolled four lines and never gave heavy duty to any one line.

Go ahead and take a guess on how many players have scored five goals in one game.

The answer is 44. Want to know some players not on the list?

Pavel Bure. Teemu Selanne. Alexander Mogilny. Pat LaFontaine. Jaromir Jagr. Joe Sakic. Steve Yzerman. Brett Hull. Mike Bossy. Bobby Hull. Gordie Howe.

But Sergei Fedorov did it. And he did it without getting 30 minutes a game the way Lemieux or Gretzky did in the 80s, or 60 minutes like Malone did.



Fedorov's high Selke finishes going into 1993-94 show that he was already considered a star defensive forward before that season. Gilmour was like early-90s Roenick or Larmer; pretty good offensively and pretty good defensively, and considered among of the best two-way guys, but nobody was going to give them a nod as "best defensive forward".



Part of the reason for that is because Detroit has chosen to build their team around elite two-way centers for the past 30 years.



I didn't say Fedorov kept him off the scoresheet; I said that Fedorov shut down his line when they were on the ice together.



Yes, but with Lemieux out, the voters will flock to LaFontaine in much greater numbers. Selanne and Yzerman would also gain a significant amount of support, though it's unlikely either would push past Gilmour. Gilmour's small contingent of supporters would not increase by nearly as much given his place on the scoring charts.



I suppose it's similar in the same manner that Steve Chiasson's 47-point season in 1988-89 is basically equivalent to Ryan Suter's from 2011-12.



I'm not one who normally uses "defensive stats", but Yzerman was on the ice for almost exactly the same number of GA/60 as Peca was. And Yzerman was one of the best, if not the best, at taking faceoffs in the NHL at the time. Peca lost more than he won; this was especially true on the PK. Yzerman won about 55% on the PK, 60% at ES, 65% on the PP, and 59% overall. Peca won 43% on the PK, just shy of 50% at ES (49.6% in over 1100 draws), and 52% on the PP.

There's no blocked shot data available on NHL.com until 2002-03 (and not available for 2003-04 either). That said, in 2002-03 Peca beats Yzerman 27 to 8 in blocked shots, but the GP differential is 66 to 16. In 2005-06, Peca wins the blocked shot contest; but that was Yzerman's last season after several years of playing on and off (but still managing at or near PPG) due to his knee and back injuries, and it's not a terribly fair comparison.



Pronger should have won it. Brind'Amour wasn't more important to the team than Ward. As important? Perhaps. Not more important.



And yet, he still wasn't better than Gordie Howe. Also, as far as owning the record book... what about Howe and Sawchuk? Why didn't they get their numbers retired league-wide based on your logic? They were both so far ahead of everyone else in career achievement that it seemed unthinkable for the longest time that anyone could ever catch them. Had Howe stayed with the Wings until 1980 instead of retiring and then returning to play in the WHA, and then with Hartford when they were absorbed, he'd still be the all-time goals and points leader. And would be given a heck of a lot more credit than he is now on all-time lists.
I have a hot news flash for you Eva: The first criteria for greatness is NOT "played in Red Wings uniform".....just thought you should know

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04-15-2013, 11:01 AM
  #138
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Three Conn Smythes say otherwise
He only deserved two of them.

But that's a topic for another thread; while it's arguable that Roy is overrated (HoH ranked him #1 and he's given credit by many sources as the best ever, when IMO he's not even the best goalie in his age group) he's still a pretty solid top-three. Any list that puts him outside of the top-five (There aren't many, but I have seen them) is pretty much off their rocker.

I've noticed a lot of guys come up in the thread who could be argued as overrated, but who aren't anywhere NEAR the title of "most overrated". Roy is a great example of this. Especially as his career overlapped with Niedermayer, who was generally considered a #2/3 for the first five years of his career, and then a bottom-tier #1. Then he wins a Norris and suddenly he's "the best defenseman of the era after Lidstrom." or "the best Canadian defenseman of the era." with people ignoring what guys like Pronger, Blake, Zubov, Desjardins, Gonchar, etc. have done not to mention the 80s holdovers like Bourque, Chelios, Leetch, Stevens, and MacInnis. It's like people WANTED Niedermayer to be a star because he had history of winning; they didn't want it to be "he played on good teams his whole career." So when he had a season that came anywhere near being good enough to justify calling him the best they grabbed it, held on, and didn't let go. It's the same as people wanting Bourque or Iginla to win a Cup; people have these ideals they believe should be fulfilled and when they think they can justify it, they say it. Such as in 2004, when Lidstrom had a down year offensively due to the Wings playing tight defense after the loss (and no replacement) of Fedorov. Pronger deserved the Norris that year, but it went to Niedermayer, who was taking over for Stevens as New Jersey's #1. He had actually been the #1 since 2001-02, but the "story" was that it was Stevens' last year. So he was Stevens' successor (never mind that he left for Anaheim after the season) and the Devils maintained their spot at the top in GA, so clearly Niedermayer deserved all of the credit for the incredible defense (as Stevens was retiring, he couldn't still be useful, right? And never mind Brodeur right in his prime. Not a factor.)

Scott Niedermayer is the clear answer to this question. He had five seasons that I would rate him as a top-five defenseman (1997-98, 2003-04, 2005-06, 2006-07, 2008-09) and only one where he falls into the top three (2006-07). Zero as a top-two, though granted his career almost exactly overlaps with Nicklas Lidstrom and Chris Pronger (who between them should have won every Norris from 1998 to 2011, save for Duncan Keith in 2010).

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04-15-2013, 11:05 AM
  #139
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I have a hot news flash for you Eva: The first criteria for greatness is NOT "played in Red Wings uniform".....just thought you should know
I have previously posted the v5% and v10% for Howe's 52-53 and Gretzky's 85-86. The numbers are strikingly similar.

Howe was as offensively dominant as Gretzky at their respective peaks, he was a good defensive player, he was one of the most physical players, and he was arguably the most "feared" player in the league.

And Howe's longevity as an elite player was far superior to Gretzky's.

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04-15-2013, 11:08 AM
  #140
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Mario Lemieux
Pete Forsberg
Martin Brodeur
Chris Pronger

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04-15-2013, 11:18 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Caballo Blanco View Post
Mario Lemieux
Pete Forsberg
Martin Brodeur
Chris Pronger
Ok, Rangers fan or Flyers fan?

Anyway, please state your cases. I'd particularly love to hear the one on Pronger; he's the second-best defenseman of his generation.

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04-15-2013, 03:43 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
In Wayne Gretzky's career-high 215-point season, he was 205% of the #10 scorer; technically #9 as Dale Hawerchuk and Neal Broten tied with 105 points, and was 207% of #11. He was 164% of 4th (Jari Kurri, 131 points) and 175% of 5th (Mike Bossy, 123 points).

In Gordie Howe's career-high 95-point season, he was 215% of the two #10 scorers (Jim McFadden and Fleming MacKell tied with 44) and was 211% of the #9 scorer (Bert Olmstead with 45 points). He was 161% of the #4/5 scorers (Wally Hershegeimer and Alex Delvecchio, 59 points each).

So basically, what you're saying is a player who peaked as dominantly offensively as Gretzky, was a solid two-way player, had the elite longevity of Ray Bourque, and was feared like Probert... is overrated? I'd say calling him less than the best of All-Time is underrating him.
As others have mentioned it's not very honest comparing vs10 between different league sizes.

My argument rests on the feeling that compared to the others in the big 4 his dominance level is seriously behind.

Take away Grezky and Mario led the league in PPG every season he played between ages 20 and 35. Mostly with huge margins.

Take away Mario and Gretzky led the league in PPG between ages 19 and 33 with even bigger margins.

From 1970 and on Bobby finished at worst 3rd in PPG and often Espo was the only person ahead of him.

Between ages 22 and 34 Gordie finished with the best PPG 7 times but also finished in place 4, 2, 5, 6, 5, 3. That is not offensive dominance to the same extent the others managed. That is merely elite.

I understand that Gordie should get extra marks for playing more games but in my eyes the numbers in thi case clearly show a significant difference in offencivev output compared to their peers. If you actually claim that Gordie had a peak that matches Gretzky you must also acknowledge that he had the fastest decline of every top forward ever between ages 24 and 26. I think this is not the case. I think Gordie had the 4th highest offensive peak ever. Slightly above Jagr, Beliveau, Hull, Yzerman and Lafleur but clearly below Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux. He maintained this for a few years and then regressed to an elite level that he held longer than anybody ever did. He also brought a lot more to the table and those thing catapult him up to the discussion amogst the other 3. But I think they peaked significantly higher.

I think these numbers:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...oints_per_game

Compared to these:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...oints_per_game

Support this.

There is basically impossible to find statistical support that Orr Gretzky and Lemiux where not offensively dominant when on the ice through most of their careers. I think I have showed that the same is not true for Gordie.


And in saying that he was as dominant offensively as the others I think you are overrating him in the way I believe he is overrated.

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04-15-2013, 04:02 PM
  #143
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Sundin

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04-15-2013, 04:30 PM
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Honestly, none of those teams were all that good. Keep in mind that by 2005-06, they had lost every member of their blueline from the 2003 Cup win except for Brian Rafalski and Colin White, and replaced them with young players and journeymen.

The 2005-06 to 2007-08 period was basically a mini-rebuilding phase for the Devils, where Martin Brodeur basically kept them in playoffs (especially in 2006-07, which was the heart of the rebuild).

The 2005-06 team was the best, because they got career years from Gomez and Gionta that neither was able to come close to replicating, and Elias played out of his mind after coming back from Hepatitis (until crashing the following season).

By 2007-08, Paul Martin started to emerge as a legit #1 defenseman, something Rafalski had basically failed at becoming.

In 2008-09, Zach Parise exploded and Travis Zajac emerged as a legit top 6 pivot.
Exactly, the Devils from '06-'11 were not very good teams. At all. They were trying to phase out the old core (Gomez, Rafalski, White, etc) and phase in the new core (Parise, Zajac, Martin, etc). Guys like Viktor Kozlov, Mike Mottau, Jay Pandolfo, and Brad Lukowich were getting huge minutes every night.

They were winning the division every year solely because of Brodeur. His best hockey was from the '06 lockout to his injury in '09. Every single game he'd make at least two or three dazzling saves. He had an enormous workload, a jerry-rigged defense of washed-up vets and career journeymen, and little to no goal support. They were living and dying by him, which is why IMO he deserved the 2007 Hart Trophy.

The '09 team under Sutter was very good. The Carolina series was a nightmare match-up and I firmly believe that if New Jersey had avoided them it would have been smooth sailing to a showdown with Pittsburgh in the ECF. But other than that, they were a bubble team at best that kept getting high seed finishes because their insane goaltender stole so many games for them.

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04-15-2013, 04:43 PM
  #145
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Sundin
Really? please elaborate on that..

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04-15-2013, 06:48 PM
  #146
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Exactly, the Devils from '06-'11 were not very good teams. At all. They were trying to phase out the old core (Gomez, Rafalski, White, etc) and phase in the new core (Parise, Zajac, Martin, etc). Guys like Viktor Kozlov, Mike Mottau, Jay Pandolfo, and Brad Lukowich were getting huge minutes every night.

They were winning the division every year solely because of Brodeur. His best hockey was from the '06 lockout to his injury in '09. Every single game he'd make at least two or three dazzling saves. He had an enormous workload, a jerry-rigged defense of washed-up vets and career journeymen, and little to no goal support. They were living and dying by him, which is why IMO he deserved the 2007 Hart Trophy.

The '09 team under Sutter was very good. The Carolina series was a nightmare match-up and I firmly believe that if New Jersey had avoided them it would have been smooth sailing to a showdown with Pittsburgh in the ECF. But other than that, they were a bubble team at best that kept getting high seed finishes because their insane goaltender stole so many games for them.
I think the emergences of Parise, Zajac, and Martin by 2008-09 made them a pretty strong team by that point. Sutter was a great coach for the team as you said, until he basically mailed it in during the playoffs.

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04-15-2013, 06:59 PM
  #147
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There's no consensus on how to compare goalies to forwards in terms of value ... there's no consensus on how to compare one-dimensional snipers like Brett Hull to two-way machines like Jere Lehtinen ... there's no consensus about how eras compare and whether or not Newsy Lalonde was better than Alex Ovechkin ... there's no consensus on what "the rankings" are ... and there's no consensus about how, exactly, "the rankings" are wrong.

This thread is a deck of cards built atop a pile of loose logs resting on a tidal flat that's currently underwater along an active fault line.

Name any random player you'd like because without context and qualification, anything you say is meaningless.

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04-15-2013, 07:05 PM
  #148
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Really? please elaborate on that..
Are you surprised? Sundin can be overrated by Toronto/Swedish fans and can be underrated by everyone else.


Last edited by Evincar: 04-15-2013 at 07:12 PM.
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04-15-2013, 07:10 PM
  #149
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Gretzky, IMO. His Cups, awards, and records were well-earned by his on-ice exploits. However, retiring his number League-wide was an inappropriate act of overrating him as if he somehow deserves a place transcending even the Hall of Fame.
He changed how and what players get paid, he made hockey popular in not only Los Angeles, but the state of California and in some aspects the US.

Oh, then you take into consideration that he is the greatest player to ever play the game and you can't overrate him

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04-15-2013, 07:49 PM
  #150
Long Duk Dong
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He changed how and what players get paid, he made hockey popular in not only Los Angeles, but the state of California and in some aspects the US.

Oh, then you take into consideration that he is the greatest player to ever play the game and you can't overrate him
I think his point is there is no reason for his 99 to be retired by any team that he didnt play for, which is a valid opinion. Not really being overrated. Babe Ruth basically singlehandedly saved baseball after the Black Sox scandal, and changed the game as well. 3 isn't retired league-wide.

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