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Who is the most overrated player of all time?

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Old
04-15-2013, 08:07 PM
  #151
Morgoth Bauglir
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Originally Posted by Long Duk Dong View Post
I think his point is there is no reason for his 99 to be retired by any team that he didnt play for, which is a valid opinion. Not really being overrated. Babe Ruth basically singlehandedly saved baseball after the Black Sox scandal, and changed the game as well. 3 isn't retired league-wide.
As awesome as the Babe was I don't think he transcended the game the way Gretzky did hockey. The only real comparison to Gretzky I can think of is the way Muhammad Ali transcended boxing.

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04-15-2013, 09:06 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
The only real comparison to Gretzky I can think of is the way Muhammad Ali transcended boxing.
Pele? Matt Poskay? Don Bradman? Laffit Pincay? Inaki Osa Goikoetxea?...

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04-15-2013, 09:07 PM
  #153
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Matt Poskay? Don Bradman? Roger Federer? Laffit Pincay? Inaki Osa Goikoetxea? Pele?...
Naw, none of them. Hell, Jimmy Connors was more transcendent than Federer ffs

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04-15-2013, 09:33 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Naw, none of them...
Okay, but can you even pronounce Goikoetxea? I sure cant. So you have permission to call him Goiko (reminds me, car insurance premium) Sainte'P.... Dude had a Jai Alai serve of 180mph, 9X's World Champion... but back to the ice, howabout the half-Spanish Valeri Kharlamov? All 5'8"'s & 165lbs of him? That guy was beyond an incredible hockey player. Had he been born in another age, like in 1958, 68 or 78 instead of 1948 & played in the NHL? Im convinced he could well be rated in the top 5 All Time & would be comparable to Gretzky & Lemieux on several levels. Just based on what little we did see of him in the 70's, an amazingly talented player, and as others have compared, somewhere between a Pavel Bure & Mike Bossy....

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04-15-2013, 09:35 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Naw, none of them. Hell, Jimmy Connors was more transcendent than Federer ffs
Connors has never been in Federer's class. Fyo, even someone like Armstrong transcended cycling more than Gretzky did hockey. Then we have athletes like Karelin, Phelps, Pele, Bolt, Alexeyev. Like it or not Gretzky's relative dominance isn't all that unique.


Last edited by Hanji: 04-15-2013 at 09:41 PM.
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04-15-2013, 09:36 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Hanji View Post
Connors has never been in Federer's class. Fyo, even someone like Armstrong transcended cycling more than Gretzky did hockey.
Nope, the only thing Armstrong transcended was PED tests. Connors and Borg >>>>> Federer.

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04-15-2013, 09:44 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Nope, the only thing Armstrong transcended was PED tests. Connors and Borg >>>>> Federer.
He still transcended cycling. I think Phelps has transcended swimming.

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04-15-2013, 09:45 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post


And yet, he still wasn't better than Gordie Howe. Also, as far as owning the record book... what about Howe and Sawchuk? Why didn't they get their numbers retired league-wide based on your logic? They were both so far ahead of everyone else in career achievement that it seemed unthinkable for the longest time that anyone could ever catch them. Had Howe stayed with the Wings until 1980 instead of retiring and then returning to play in the WHA, and then with Hartford when they were absorbed, he'd still be the all-time goals and points leader. And would be given a heck of a lot more credit than he is now on all-time lists.
Howe only had 508 points in the WHA. Even if we say he would have scored the same amount in the NHL during those seasons, he would have had 2358 points. If we give him the 71 and 72 seasons where he did not play, he still wouldn't have had as many points as Gretzky. So you're claim that he'd have been the all-time points leader is false. And that's asuming that a point in the WHA would have been a point in the NHL. I'm not really qualified to say that's true or not, but I think such a claim would be very debated on these boards to say the least.

Even if he did pass Gretzky, most would say it was because he played so much longer, not because he was more elite when he did play. While six scoring titles is a staggering achievement, ten is even better.

Also, not sure if it would change the numbers you listed in your other post of v5 and v10%, but you used Gretzky's highest season for points, but the 83-84 season was the one where he won the scoring title by his widest margin of victory which was by 79 points. It's even more impressive when we consider Gretzky missed 6 games that season, which would have made his margin even bigger (probably another 15 or 16 points considering he was averaging 2.77 PPG).

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04-15-2013, 09:49 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Hanji View Post
Connors has never been in Federer's class. Fyo, even someone like Armstrong transcended cycling more than Gretzky did hockey. Then we have athletes like Karelin, Phelps, Pele, Bolt, Alexeyev. Like it or not Gretzky's relative dominance isn't all that unique.
Most of those aren't team sports. Also, Gretzky dominated for 10 years, then was still elite for the better part of 10 more. If Bolt can dominate his sport for 10 years and still be top 5/10 for the best part of 10 more, he'll be comparable.

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04-15-2013, 09:52 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
He still transcended cycling. I think Phelps has transcended swimming.
Frauds don't transcend a sport. If you're a doper then you're a fraud.

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04-15-2013, 09:59 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Long Duk Dong View Post
I think his point is there is no reason for his 99 to be retired by any team that he didnt play for, which is a valid opinion. Not really being overrated. Babe Ruth basically singlehandedly saved baseball after the Black Sox scandal, and changed the game as well. 3 isn't retired league-wide.
I agree. It helped that 99 was a very unique jersey number that only two other players wore. If Gretzky wore 4 or 9 it his number wouldnt have been retired league-wide.


Last edited by Evincar: 04-15-2013 at 10:04 PM.
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04-15-2013, 10:06 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Litework View Post
I agree. It helped that 99 was a very unique jersey that only two other players wore. If Gretzky wore 4 or 9 it his number wouldnt have been retired league-wide.
I didnt like that about him actually, that hot dog weeny of a number. I dont like high digits on anyone. Beyond 28, forget it. Your a Forward? You wear anything from 8 to 28. Defencemen 2-8. Goalies, 1, 24, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33 or whatever you want.

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04-15-2013, 10:43 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
Howe only had 508 points in the WHA. Even if we say he would have scored the same amount in the NHL during those seasons, he would have had 2358 points. If we give him the 71 and 72 seasons where he did not play, he still wouldn't have had as many points as Gretzky. So you're claim that he'd have been the all-time points leader is false. And that's asuming that a point in the WHA would have been a point in the NHL. I'm not really qualified to say that's true or not, but I think such a claim would be very debated on these boards to say the least.
You don't think that Howe could have put up better numbers playing alongside Marcel Dionne in Detroit than he did in the WHA?

Quote:
Even if he did pass Gretzky, most would say it was because he played so much longer, not because he was more elite when he did play. While six scoring titles is a staggering achievement, ten is even better.
Howe was still top-five in scoring 20 consecutive times. That counteracts any "he only got a lot of points by playing a long time" argument. Gretzky only played 20 seasons, and missed the top five in several during the 90s.

Quote:
Also, not sure if it would change the numbers you listed in your other post of v5 and v10%, but you used Gretzky's highest season for points, but the 83-84 season was the one where he won the scoring title by his widest margin of victory which was by 79 points. It's even more impressive when we consider Gretzky missed 6 games that season, which would have made his margin even bigger (probably another 15 or 16 points considering he was averaging 2.77 PPG).
I've been thinking about doing a Howe v. Gretzky thread involving that kind of stuff; comparing best v. best season when it comes to those numbers, etc.

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04-15-2013, 10:46 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by pluppe View Post
As others have mentioned it's not very honest comparing vs10 between different league sizes.

My argument rests on the feeling that compared to the others in the big 4 his dominance level is seriously behind.

Take away Grezky and Mario led the league in PPG every season he played between ages 20 and 35. Mostly with huge margins.

Take away Mario and Gretzky led the league in PPG between ages 19 and 33 with even bigger margins.

From 1970 and on Bobby finished at worst 3rd in PPG and often Espo was the only person ahead of him.

Between ages 22 and 34 Gordie finished with the best PPG 7 times but also finished in place 4, 2, 5, 6, 5, 3. That is not offensive dominance to the same extent the others managed. That is merely elite.

I understand that Gordie should get extra marks for playing more games but in my eyes the numbers in thi case clearly show a significant difference in offencivev output compared to their peers. If you actually claim that Gordie had a peak that matches Gretzky you must also acknowledge that he had the fastest decline of every top forward ever between ages 24 and 26. I think this is not the case. I think Gordie had the 4th highest offensive peak ever. Slightly above Jagr, Beliveau, Hull, Yzerman and Lafleur but clearly below Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux. He maintained this for a few years and then regressed to an elite level that he held longer than anybody ever did. He also brought a lot more to the table and those thing catapult him up to the discussion amogst the other 3. But I think they peaked significantly higher.

I think these numbers:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...oints_per_game

Compared to these:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...oints_per_game

Support this.

There is basically impossible to find statistical support that Orr Gretzky and Lemiux where not offensively dominant when on the ice through most of their careers. I think I have showed that the same is not true for Gordie.


And in saying that he was as dominant offensively as the others I think you are overrating him in the way I believe he is overrated.
I agree 100% with this post.

Comparing v10/v5 finishes in 6 team league against 22 team league is very dishonest and gives skewed answers. Howe was a step behind Gretzky and Mario (forwards) in offensive dominance. He also experienced a lot shorter peak.

Now, I can understand someone putting Howe as the #1 all-time but not for the reasons Eva posted. However, Howe in the 1st spot is a minority opinion and to make a good case him in that spot requires all the possible arguments there might be.

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04-15-2013, 11:03 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
You don't think that Howe could have put up better numbers playing alongside Marcel Dionne in Detroit than he did in the WHA?

Howe was still top-five in scoring 20 consecutive times. That counteracts any "he only got a lot of points by playing a long time" argument. Gretzky only played 20 seasons, and missed the top five in several during the 90s.

I've been thinking about doing a Howe v. Gretzky thread involving that kind of stuff; comparing best v. best season when it comes to those numbers, etc.
Using this logic, Mike Gartner had 14 consecutive seasons of 30+ goals, therefore Gartner >>>>> Howe

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04-15-2013, 11:39 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Using this logic, Mike Gartner had 14 consecutive seasons of 30+ goals, therefore Gartner >>>>> Howe
Not the same.

If I had given a point number, then it would be equivalent. Top-five is ranking in the league.

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04-15-2013, 11:58 PM
  #167
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As awesome as the Babe was I don't think he transcended the game the way Gretzky did hockey. The only real comparison to Gretzky I can think of is the way Muhammad Ali transcended boxing.
What????


The guy who hit more home runs than entire teams didn't transcend the game? Not to mention he was among the best pitchers of his time, and his career batting average was .342!!!!

Babe Ruth transcended Baseball far more than Gretzky transcended hockey.

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04-15-2013, 11:59 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Not the same.

If I had given a point number, then it would be equivalent. Top-five is ranking in the league.
Top 5 rankings are not equally worth. I thought it is obvious. Also, top-five shoukd be used as a part of a bigger picture. Like, dominance over 2nd 5th and perhaps 10th. Also, amount of teams is pretty important stat too.

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04-16-2013, 12:02 AM
  #169
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Connors and Borg >>>>> Federer.
Well that's insane.

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04-16-2013, 12:10 AM
  #170
Morgoth Bauglir
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What????


The guy who hit more home runs than entire teams didn't transcend the game? Not to mention he was among the best pitchers of his time, and his career batting average was .342!!!!

Babe Ruth transcended Baseball far more than Gretzky transcended hockey.
Hardly. How many people actually remember he pitched for the Red Sox? Very few. The Babe may have towered over the Roaring 20s but but he was very quickly replaced by Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio as the giants of baseball. So far no one has replaced Gretzky: He still looms over the sport in a way no one has yet to even come close to.

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04-16-2013, 12:11 AM
  #171
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Well that's insane.
Apparently you never watched Connors and Borg.

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04-16-2013, 12:26 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I agree 100% with this post.

Comparing v10/v5 finishes in 6 team league against 22 team league is very dishonest and gives skewed answers. Howe was a step behind Gretzky and Mario (forwards) in offensive dominance. He also experienced a lot shorter peak.

Now, I can understand someone putting Howe as the #1 all-time but not for the reasons Eva posted. However, Howe in the 1st spot is a minority opinion and to make a good case him in that spot requires all the possible arguments there might be.
Using v5/v10 regardless of league size is completely valid when discussing offensive dominance. We are not comparing them to the overall league scoring level, or the 30th-best scorer, or something like that.

When people bring up the increased population base for the modern day, the general response is that the star players were still going to be star players no matter what. So the suggestion that it's invalid between different league sizes is equivalent to saying that adding a bunch of average players affects the results. If anything, that view (larger leagues have few "star level" players per team) would be consistent with the idea that the O6 was the deepest the league has been talent-wise and would favor Howe over Gretzky in a comparison.

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04-16-2013, 12:30 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Top 5 rankings are not equally worth. I thought it is obvious. Also, top-five shoukd be used as a part of a bigger picture. Like, dominance over 2nd 5th and perhaps 10th. Also, amount of teams is pretty important stat too.
Ok. Since apparently comparing a six or 12-team NHL with a 21+ team NHL is not allowed when Gretzky loses the comparison... Gordie Howe played in the All-Star game in every single season he played in the NHL when it had 21+ teams.

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04-16-2013, 01:55 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Ok. Since apparently comparing a six or 12-team NHL with a 21+ team NHL is not allowed when Gretzky loses the comparison... Gordie Howe played in the All-Star game in every single season he played in the NHL when it had 21+ teams.
Yes, Gordie was elite for a long time. Nobody is questioning this. But the others were offensively dominant for a long time. Something you have not addressed.

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04-16-2013, 05:07 AM
  #175
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Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
Howe only had 508 points in the WHA. Even if we say he would have scored the same amount in the NHL during those seasons, he would have had 2358 points. If we give him the 71 and 72 seasons where he did not play, he still wouldn't have had as many points as Gretzky. So you're claim that he'd have been the all-time points leader is false. And that's asuming that a point in the WHA would have been a point in the NHL. I'm not really qualified to say that's true or not, but I think such a claim would be very debated on these boards to say the least.

Even if he did pass Gretzky, most would say it was because he played so much longer, not because he was more elite when he did play. While six scoring titles is a staggering achievement, ten is even better.

Also, not sure if it would change the numbers you listed in your other post of v5 and v10%, but you used Gretzky's highest season for points, but the 83-84 season was the one where he won the scoring title by his widest margin of victory which was by 79 points. It's even more impressive when we consider Gretzky missed 6 games that season, which would have made his margin even bigger (probably another 15 or 16 points considering he was averaging 2.77 PPG).
That's a pretty good career for most players...and all after he turned 45

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