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Top Russian players of the 70s

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Old
04-11-2013, 11:04 AM
  #1
Sentinel
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Top Russian players of the 70s

I'm trying to establish the relative value and overall rating of top Russian players of 70s. Can somebody help me with the stats? IMO there were four top notch forwards: Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Petrov, and Yakushev. I am excluding Maltsev, because he was a total choker. Petrov won five scoring titles (and was pretty good defensively). Kharlamov won one scoring title and was Player of the Year twice. Mikhailov was Player of the Year twice, but no scoring titles. Yakushev had one scoring title.

As far as intangibles go, Kharlamov and Yakushev were far more charismatic and artistic than Petrov and Mikhailov. Leadership goes to Mikhailov (good physical presence too) and Yakushev (who was also a real clutch player).

Thoughts, opinions, stats to back them up?

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04-11-2013, 11:11 AM
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I don't know why you think Maltsev was a choker.

Anyway, these threads probably help:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...953&highlight=
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...152&highlight=
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...626&highlight=

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04-11-2013, 01:58 PM
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Are you forgetting about Balderis or not including him because he wasn't Russian?

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04-11-2013, 04:16 PM
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Balderis was superb, but I don't think he was on the level of the four above. Maltsev often disappeared in important games (only four points centering Kharlamov in eight games in 72 is just one example).

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04-11-2013, 04:25 PM
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I know Petrov had excellent stats when playing against north american professional teams and Team Canada in the two Summit Series, in the Super Series more goals vs. assists as well.

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04-12-2013, 03:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post

As far as intangibles go, Kharlamov and Yakushev were far more charismatic and artistic than Petrov and Mikhailov. Leadership goes to Mikhailov (good physical presence too) and Yakushev (who was also a real clutch player).

Thoughts, opinions, stats to back them up?
IMO Yakushev shouldn't even be in this discussion. He was great in 1972 (in the last 3 games really) and had a very nice career, but I don't think he was as good as any of the other three you mentioned or Maltsev.
Yakushev charismatic and artistic? Oookay. An opinion is an opinion. I think he was a fairly one-dimensional goal-scorer.

And I don't understand why you left Petrov out of the leadership discussion; he was definitely among the 'bosses' in CSKA and ntl team (in his book, Viktor Tikhonov mentions Mikhailov, Petrov and Gennady Tsygankov as the players who were 'in charge' in CSKA); he centered CSKA's/USSR's top line; you have to have leadership qualities to do that. Petrov had some problems with the coaches/authorities and probably thus was never even assistant captain. After his playing career, though, he was e.g. the President of Russian Ice Hockey Federation for a couple of years in the 1990s.

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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Maltsev often disappeared in important games (only four points centering Kharlamov in eight games in 72 is just one example).
The official stats have him scoring five points (all assists) in the eight games. He also might have deflected a couple of shots in which he didn't get credit for (games 5 and 8). However, he indeed was a disappointment in 1972, and I don't remember him ever being a great clutch player - either against Canada or Czechoslovakia. Still, I believe he is widely considered to be a better player than Petrov, for example.

My top 10 forwards would be:

Kharlamov
Mikhailov
Maltsev
Petrov
Yakushev
Balderis

Vikulov
Kapustin
Shadrin
Shalimov

It was getting pretty tough towards the end!


Last edited by VMBM: 04-12-2013 at 03:37 AM.
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04-12-2013, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
IMO Yakushev shouldn't even be in this discussion. He was great in 1972 (in the last 3 games really) and had a very nice career, but I don't think he was as good as any of the other three you mentioned or Maltsev.
Yakushev charismatic and artistic? Oookay. An opinion is an opinion. I think he was a fairly one-dimensional goal-scorer.
This is a pretty wide-spread opinion. As far as on-ice charisma in the court of public opinion in the 70s he was behind only Kharlamov and Maltsev. He was also great in the 1974 series.

Quote:
And I don't understand why you left Petrov out of the leadership discussion; he was definitely among the 'bosses' in CSKA and ntl team (in his book, Viktor Tikhonov mentions Mikhailov, Petrov and Gennady Tsygankov as the players who were 'in charge' in CSKA); he centered CSKA's/USSR's top line; you have to have leadership qualities to do that. Petrov had some problems with the coaches/authorities and probably thus was never even assistant captain. After his playing career, though, he was e.g. the President of Russian Ice Hockey Federation for a couple of years in the 1990s.
So was Sych, big deal. To lead Spartak to the title, like Yakushev did, certainly requires leadership qualities, but to center the top line? Not necessarily. CSKA was Mikhailov's (and to lesser degree -- Tsygankov's) team. Petrov was a respected two way player and an excellent scorer, but did not have the authority of Mikhailov or the charisma of Kharlamov, Maltsev, and Yakushev.

Quote:
I don't remember him ever being a great clutch player - either against Canada or Czechoslovakia. Still, I believe he is widely considered to be a better player than Petrov, for example.
That's the idea: he wasn't a clutch player. You can trust public opinion in the matters of art, charisma, and creativity, but to evaluate a player's net worth you have to look at numbers, especially in dire situations. Maltsev was a total choker, his Dinamo never won a championship (even though Krylia Sovetov and Spartak teams did), but piled up points against Finlands and Germanies of the 70s.

Quote:
My top 10 forwards would be:

Kharlamov
Mikhailov
Maltsev
Petrov
Yakushev
Balderis

Vikulov
Kapustin
Shadrin
Shalimov

It was getting pretty tough towards the end!
You are basically going by the "accepted public opinion." Which is fine (until it starts ranking Kharlamov over Makarov). A more realistic picture would be:

Kharlamov (the highest peak and prime)
Mikhailov (the most stable career)
Yakushev (total clutch in every important game)
Petrov (the longest prime + two way)
Balderis
Shadrin
Maltsev
Kapustin
Vikulov
Shalimov

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04-12-2013, 07:45 AM
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Yakushev as Sentinel wrote above was excellent in the two Summit Series, and usually also very good in the Super Series. Perhaps a case can be made he was better than all forwards but Petrov when it came to play on small ice versus professionals.

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04-12-2013, 08:18 AM
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Summit Series

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Yakushev as Sentinel wrote above was excellent in the two Summit Series, and usually also very good in the Super Series. Perhaps a case can be made he was better than all forwards but Petrov when it came to play on small ice versus professionals.
Last half of the 1972 and 1974 Summit Series was on the large international rink in Moscow. This is where Yakushev stood out especially in 1972.

Yakushev had an NHL style game similar to prime Frank Mahovlich plus he had the stamina and shot.

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04-12-2013, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Last half of the 1972 and 1974 Summit Series was on the large international rink in Moscow. This is where Yakushev stood out especially in 1972.

Yakushev had an NHL style game similar to prime Frank Mahovlich plus he had the stamina and shot.
That is possible. I just remember him showing quite often on the scoresheets from the Super Series. Perhaps not as often as Petrov though, i'll have a look at it. Unfortunate that he did'nt play for CSKA.

Edit: I dont have axcess to all the series but Yakushev seem to have been a really good goal scorer on small ice, even though he may not have been better than the other players the OP mentioned in points.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 04-12-2013 at 09:16 AM.
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04-12-2013, 09:21 AM
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Does anyone know if Society for International Hockey Research have axcess to all the stats from the different Super Series? I think it would be real beneficial to have a look at all of them, not just the ones Chidlovski has.

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04-12-2013, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Last half of the 1972 and 1974 Summit Series was on the large international rink in Moscow. This is where Yakushev stood out especially in 1972.
Precisely. The first half of the series was Kharlamov's, the second half - Yakushev's.

Part of Yakushev's appeal stems from the fact that he played for Spartak. In USSR, CSKA was affiliated with the military and Dinamo with KGB. Sympathies of ordinary people usually laid with Spartak, "the people's team." Yakushev was the symbol of Spartak, and people loved him dearly. And again, he was creative, powerful, and epitome of clutch.


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04-12-2013, 09:56 AM
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Petrov is rarely mentioned in discussions of who is Russia's all-time best Center. I think one can certainly make a case for him.

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04-12-2013, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
This is a pretty wide-spread opinion. As far as on-ice charisma in the court of public opinion in the 70s he was behind only Kharlamov and Maltsev. He was also great in the 1974 series.
Is it? Okay, I'm convinced

1974 Series? That's like saying "he was great against Sweden" or something. So what? How was he versus Czechoslovakia?

I can say for certain that in Finland at least, Yakushev's name really isn't one of the first to come up, when the top USSR forwards of the 1970s are being discussed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
So was Sych, big deal. To lead Spartak to the title, like Yakushev did, certainly requires leadership qualities, but to center the top line? Not necessarily. CSKA was Mikhailov's (and to lesser degree -- Tsygankov's) team. Petrov was a respected two way player and an excellent scorer, but did not have the authority of Mikhailov or the charisma of Kharlamov, Maltsev, and Yakushev.
Okay, I guess I'll have to parrot myself a bit: Viktor Tikhonov says this in his book (a rough translation):
Who do the other players listen and comply to? I've always known that in CSKA where I started as the head coach in 1977, the ones in charge were Boris Mikhailov, Vladimir Petrov and Gennady Tsygankov

A Finnish player Juhani Tamminen, who played against Troika Petrov many many times, once analysed the players and he described Petrov as the leader, not Mikhailov (who he just called "very tough mentally").

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
That's the idea: he wasn't a clutch player. You can trust public opinion in the matters of art, charisma, and creativity, but to evaluate a player's net worth you have to look at numbers, especially in dire situations. Maltsev was a total choker, his Dinamo never won a championship (even though Krylia Sovetov and Spartak teams did), but piled up points against Finlands and Germanies of the 70s.
Total choker? Settle down, settle down...

Even though I think there's a little of the 'style over substance' thing with Maltsev, I don't think you can totally ignore his MVP/All star voting record both in Soviet Union and World Championships (top forward in 1970, 1972 and 1981). He also had to play with weaker players for the most of his career - except in the early seventies and the odd tournament later on.
And since you brought the 1974 Series here, Team Canada coach Billy Harris actually picked Maltsev of all the USSR players, saying "he hurt us" (whatever that means). http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=1374,1893187 <-- in the last paragraph

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
You are basically going by the "accepted public opinion." Which is fine (until it starts ranking Kharlamov over Makarov). A more realistic picture would be:

Kharlamov (the highest peak and prime)
Mikhailov (the most stable career)
Yakushev (total clutch in every important game)
Petrov (the longest prime + two way)
Balderis
Shadrin
Maltsev
Kapustin
Vikulov
Shalimov
Yakushev "total clutch" and "in every important game"? Do you mind somehow proving these so called facts?

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04-12-2013, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Last half of the 1972 and 1974 Summit Series was on the large international rink in Moscow. This is where Yakushev stood out especially in 1972.
Precisely. The first of the series was Kharlamov's, the second half - Yakushev's.

Part of Yakushev's appeal stems from the fact that he played for Spartak. In USSR, CSKA was affiliated with the military and Dinamo with KGB. Sympathies of ordinary people usually laid with Spartak, "the people's team." Yakushev was the symbol of Spartak, and people loved him dearly. And again, he was creative, powerful, and epitome of clutch.

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04-12-2013, 02:24 PM
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70s Soviet Forward Stats

Balderis, Helmuts
-Club Level:
79-80 Super Series (CSKA): 5+2=7 (in 5)
-National Team:
76 Canada Cup: 2+3=5 (in 5)
79 Challenge Cup: 1+1=2 (in 3)
TOTAL: 3+4=7 (in 8)

Golikov, Vladimir
-Club Level:
79-80 Super Series (Dinamo): 2+2=4 (in 4)
-National Team:
79 Challenge Cup: 2+1=3 (in 2)

Kapustin, Sergei
-Club Level:
75-76 Super Series (Krylja Sovietov): 3+2=5 (in 4)
-National Team:
74 Summit Series: 0+1=1 (in 5)
76 Canada Cup: 3+3=6 (in 5)
79 Challenge Cup: 2+1=3 (in 3)
TOTAL: 5+5=10 (in 13)

Kharlamov, Valeri
-Club Level:
75-76 Super Series (CSKA): 4+3=7 (in 4)
79-80 Super Series (CSKA): 2+1=3 (in 5)
TOTAL: 6+4=10 (in 9)
-National Team:
72 Summit Series: 3+4=7 (in 7)
74 Summit Series: 2+6=8 (in 8)
79 Challenge Cup: 0+1=1 (in 1)
TOTAL: 5+11=16 (in 16)

Makarov, Sergei
-Club Level:
79-80 Super Series (CSKA): 1+3=4 (in 5)
-National Team:
79 Challenge Cup: 1+2=3 (in 3)

Maltsev, Alexander
-Club Level:
75-76 Super Series (CSKA): 1+2=3 (in 4)
79-80 Super Series (Dinamo): 3+1=4 (in 4)
TOTAL: 4+3=7 (in 8)
-National Team:
72 Summit Series: 0+5=5 (in 8)
74 Summit Series: 4+0=4 (in 8)
76 Canada Cup: 3+4=7 (in 5)
TOTAL: 7+9=16 (in 21)

Mikhailov, Boris
-Club Level:
75-76 Super Series (CSKA): 2+3=5 (in 4)
79-80 Super Series (CSKA): 2+2=4 (in 5)
TOTAL: 4+5=9 (in 9)
-National Team:
72 Summit Series: 3+2=5 (in 8)
74 Summit Series: 4+2=6 (in 7)
79 Challenge Cup: 3+0=3 (in 3)
TOTAL: 10+4=14 (in 18)

Petrov, Vladimir
-Club Level:
75-76 Super Series (CSKA): 2+3=5 (in 2)
79-80 Super Series (CSKA): 1+2=3 (in 5)
TOTAL: 3+5=8 (in 8)
-National Team:
Petrov, Vladimir
72 Summit Series: 3+4=7 (in 8)
74 Summit Series: 1+6=7 (in 7)
79 Challenge Cup: 0+1=1 (in 3)
TOTAL: 4+11=15 (in 18)

Shadrin, Vladimir
-Club Level:
75-76 Super Series (Krylja Sovietov): 1+3=4 (in 4)
77-78 Super Series (Spartak): 0+3=3 (in 4)
TOTAL: 1+6=7 (in 8)
-National Team:
72 Summit Series: 3+5=8 (in 8)
74 Summit Series: 0+5=5 (in 8)
TOTAL: 3+10=13 (in 16)

Shalimov, Viktor
-Club Level:
75-76 Super Series (Krylja Sovietov): 4+4=8 (in 4)
-National Team:
74 Summit Series: 2+0=2 (in 4)
76 Canada Cup: 0+1=1 (in 1)
TOTAL: 2+1=3 (in 5)

Skvortsov, Alexander
-Club Level:
78-79 Super Series (Krylja Sovietov): 6+4=10 (in 4)
79-80 Super Series (CSKA): 1+1=2 (in 4)
TOTAL: 7+5=12 (in 8)
-National Team:
79 Challenge Cup: 0+2=2 (in 3)

Varnakov, Mikhail
-Club Level:
78-79 Super Series (Krylja Sovietov): 5+6=11 (in 4)
79-80 Super Series (CSKA): 2+0=2 (in 5)
TOTAL: 7+6=13 (in 9)
-National Team:
79 Challenge Cup: 1+1=2 (in 3)

Vikulov, Vladimir
-Club Level:
75-76 Super Series(CSKA): 2+1=3 (in 4)
-National Team:
72 Summit Series: 2+1=3 (in 6)
74 Summit Series: 0+4=4 (in 4)
76 Canada Cup: 4+3=7 (in 4)
TOTAL: 6+8=14 (in 14)

Yakushev, Alexander
-Club Level:
75-76 Super Series (Krylja Sovietov): 1+3=4 (in 4)
77-78 Super Series (Spartak): 1+3=4 (in 5)
TOTAL: 2+6=8 (in 9)
-National Team:
72 Summit Series: 7+4=11 (in 8)
74 Summit Series: 6+2=8 (in 7)
TOTAL: 13+6=19 (in 15)

Zhluktov, Viktor
-Club Level:
75-76 Super Series (CSKA): 0+4=4 (in 3)
79-80 Super Series (CSKA): 1+4=4 (in 5)
TOTAL: 1+8=9 (in 8)
-National Team:
76 Canada Cup: 5+5=10 (in 5)
79 Challenge Cup: 1+1=2 (in 3)
TOTAL: 6+6=12 (in 8)


Last edited by Theokritos: 04-12-2013 at 04:02 PM.
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04-12-2013, 03:04 PM
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Yakushev had 7+1 in 7 games in the 76/77 edition as well says Chidlovski, more from that year here and perhaps more. Not the least Theokritos nice info above lacks all players from that year.

http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1974/world/index.htm

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04-12-2013, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Yakushev had 7+1 in 7 games in the 76/77 edition as well says Chidlovski, more from that year here and perhaps more. Not the least Theokritos nice info above lacks all players from that year.
76/77 edition was against WHA clubs and outside of Chidlovski I have never head anyone refer to it as "Super Series". I left it out on purpose. The best of the WHA (Team Canada 1974) were on NHL level, but as a whole the WHA was inferior, the depht wasn't there.

EDIT:
Chidlovski calls the Series of the Soviet B National Team against WHA teams "Super Series" too, but you don't seriously want me to include them, do you?

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04-12-2013, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
76/77 edition was against WHA clubs and outside of Chidlovski I have never head anyone refer to it as "Super Series". I left it out on purpose. The best of the WHA (Team Canada 1974) were on NHL level, but as a whole the WHA was inferior, the depht wasn't there.

EDIT:
Chidlovski calls the Series of the Soviet B National Team against WHA teams "Super Series" too, but you don't seriously want me to include them, do you?
I believe the WHA games have some value becouse they give us more to go by when evaluating the soviet players.

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04-12-2013, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
I believe the WHA games have some value becouse they give us more to go by when evaluating the soviet players.
I don't claim they have no value, but not the same value as games against NHL level competition. That's the intention behind the overview I have put together.

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04-12-2013, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
I don't claim they have no value, but not the same value as games against NHL level competition. That's the intention behind the overview I have put together.
Yeah, but since there are fewer games against WHA the numbers might just blend in real nice in the total. Well, everyone do as they wish.

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04-12-2013, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Maltsev, Alexander
-Club Level:
75-76 Super Series (CSKA): 1+1=2 (in 4)
79-80 Super Series (Dinamo): 3+1=4 (in 4)
TOTAL: 4+2=6 (in 8)
I think Maltsev scored 3 points (1+2) in the Bruins game.

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04-12-2013, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Yeah, but since there are fewer games against WHA the numbers might just blend in real nice in the total. Well, everyone do as they wish.
I'm in favour of a WHA overview, but I prefer one separate from the NHL level overview.

Quote:
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I think Maltsev scored 3 points (1+2) in the Bruins game.
You are correct, thank you! Going to fix that. Corrections are welcome if anybody finds other inaccuracies.

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04-12-2013, 06:49 PM
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What happened to Makarov's CC81 and 87 and series in 86?

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04-12-2013, 06:53 PM
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What happened to Makarov's CC81 and 87 and series in 86?
1970s only. 79-80 is included because it is on the verge.

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