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Maurice Richard's Speed

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04-11-2013, 05:40 PM
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Canadiens1958
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Maurice Richard's Speed

Interesting read about a 1945 Oldtimers game at the Montreal Forum featuring the old Canadiens vs the old Maroons.

http://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=...3601%2C1109413

Telling blurb about Maurice Richard's speed 14.3 second. This is after two major leg injuries earlier in his career.

Compare to the 1990s to date skill competition numbers quite favourably.

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04-11-2013, 05:46 PM
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At 2:33 is footage, I believe, of him skating from his own blue line to the opposing goal on a breakaway. I'm not sure when the footage was filmed. He does look very fast, though; it's even more impressive considering the skates worn at the time:



CBC began to televise games on October 11, 1952. One would have to wonder how many games featuring Richard are available. It would be neat to analyze his game based on the footage.



Last edited by JetsAlternate: 04-11-2013 at 06:04 PM.
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04-11-2013, 05:51 PM
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Late 1950s

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
At 2:33 is footage, I believe, of him skating from his own blue line to the opposing goal on a breakaway. I'm not sure when the footage was filmed. He does look very fast, though; it's even more impressive considering the skates worn at the time:

Looks like late 1950's post achillies tendon injury.

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04-11-2013, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Looks like late 1950's post achillies tendon injury.
It seems he suffered his injury during the 1957-58 season:

http://www.cbc.ca/archives/categorie...he-rocket.html
Quote:
The Rocket is restless. A month after suffering a partly severed Achilles tendon, his right leg is still in a cast and he's recuperating at home while it heals. Missing multiple games means he'll likely have to give up any hope of capturing the NHL scoring title for the 1957-58 season. But the injury also means he's spending more time at home with his five children, and that's where CBC Radio finds him.
It would definitely be worth seeing if footage from prior to this injury is available.

I can't comment based on having not seen him play prior to his final few seasons. Based on that news clipping, his nickname, and the general consensus that he was indeed a very fast skater, it seems many at the time considered him to be one of the fastest, if not the fastest, of his era. One does have to consider how accurately his time was measured, and the dimensions of the course he skated around.


Last edited by JetsAlternate: 04-11-2013 at 06:18 PM.
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04-11-2013, 06:38 PM
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Hurricane Hec...

Kilrea. Mentioned him in another thread. 1928 the guy does a lap in 16 2/5ths. Brother, Uncle, Great Uncle etc to all the rest of the Kilrea's of course. Former Speedskater, playing in the NHL for like 6 years. Faster than the Stratford Streak Howie Morenz & Fred Cyclone Taylor and described by contemporaries still alive in the 60's as being very much like Bobby Hull, as in "identical" according to Ralph Mellanby who was told such by Newsy Lalonde... Kilrea was also awarded the Distinguished Service Cross, the Purple Heart & the French Croix de guerre during WW2.

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04-11-2013, 07:25 PM
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Comparables

Maurice Richard 14.3 compares very favourably with the NHL Skills competition results from the early 1990s to date:

1992 Sergei Fedorov 14.363
1993 Mike Gartner 13.510
1994 Sergei Fedorov 13.525
1996 Mike Gartner 13.386
1997 Peter Bondra 13.610
1998 Scott Niedermayer 13.560
1999 Peter Bondra 14.640
2000 Sami Kapanen 13.649
2001 Bill Guerin 13.690
2002 Sami Kapanen 14.039
2003 Marian Gaborik 13.713
2004 Scott Niedermayer 13.783
2007 Andy McDonald 14.03
2008 Shawn Horcoff 14.395
2009 Andrew Cogliano 14.31
2011 Michael Grabner 14.238

Also the 15.2 recorded by an amateur player Frank Porteous reflects how the standardization of hockey skates in the second half of the 1920s impacted skating.

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04-11-2013, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
It seems he suffered his injury during the 1957-58 season:

http://www.cbc.ca/archives/categorie...he-rocket.html


It would definitely be worth seeing if footage from prior to this injury is available.

I can't comment based on having not seen him play prior to his final few seasons. Based on that news clipping, his nickname, and the general consensus that he was indeed a very fast skater, it seems many at the time considered him to be one of the fastest, if not the fastest, of his era. One does have to consider how accurately his time was measured, and the dimensions of the course he skated around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Maurice Richard 14.3 compares very favourably with the NHL Skills competition results from the early 1990s to date:

1992 Sergei Fedorov 14.363
1993 Mike Gartner 13.510
1994 Sergei Fedorov 13.525
1996 Mike Gartner 13.386
1997 Peter Bondra 13.610
1998 Scott Niedermayer 13.560
1999 Peter Bondra 14.640
2000 Sami Kapanen 13.649
2001 Bill Guerin 13.690
2002 Sami Kapanen 14.039
2003 Marian Gaborik 13.713
2004 Scott Niedermayer 13.783
2007 Andy McDonald 14.03
2008 Shawn Horcoff 14.395
2009 Andrew Cogliano 14.31
2011 Michael Grabner 14.238

Also the 15.2 recorded by an amateur player Frank Porteous reflects how the standardization of hockey skates in the second half of the 1920s impacted skating.
It's really hard to say how accurate the 14.3 is though, I often see hand timing for the 40 at 4.3 and 4.4 in the Vancouver Province regarding one high school in the Greater Vancouver area in particular when in fact actual published (electronic timing at combines ect...) has the same players in the high 4.6 and above range.

Suffice to say Richard probably had great hockey speed especially from the blue line in.

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04-11-2013, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
It's really hard to say how accurate the 14.3 is though,
Someone years from now, who wasn't born when Gartner accomplished his 13.510, will say the same thing.

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04-11-2013, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
Someone years from now, who wasn't born when Gartner accomplished his 13.510, will say the same thing.
You're leaving out the context of his post. The margin of error is huge with stopwatch timing; his time could have "actually" been 15+ seconds. Consider that number against the posted times from players like Gartner, etc. which were electronically recorded.

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04-11-2013, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
Someone years from now, who wasn't born when Gartner accomplished his 13.510, will say the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
You're leaving out the context of his post. The margin of error is huge with stopwatch timing; his time could have "actually" been 15+ seconds. Consider that number against the posted times from players like Gartner, etc. which were electronically recorded.
Exactly, it doesn't matter when any of the times were taken but the accuracy of hand timing and electronic timing are quite different, one is much more accurate than the other one.

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04-11-2013, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
You're leaving out the context of his post. The margin of error is huge with stopwatch timing; his time could have "actually" been 15+ seconds. Consider that number against the posted times from players like Gartner, etc. which were electronically recorded.
The margin of error couldnt possibly be "huge" eva, as consider with thoroughbred racing you have track records that in some cases go back to the late 19th century when stopwatches (along with photography) were used pre-electronic timing devices. The Kentucky Derby for example at Churchill Downs, youve got Secretariat in 73, Monarchos in 2001, Northern Dancer in 1964 in the top 3. I dont understand why you'd think given that the rink dimensions like a track dont change and with all things being equal, how there could possibly be a "huge" difference. If that were the case, then legendary horses like Man O' War, Seabiscuit & countless others as ranked amongst the top fastest all time based on their clocked numbers alone would've been tossed by the racing fraternity & breeders long long ago. If one were to follow such logic, the stud fee's charged in retirement utterly bogus, a fraud of such a vast & gargantuan scale as to be beyond diabolical. Youd throw the entire bloodstock industry into disarray, panic.... not even Dick Francis would come up with so implausible a premise for his dime novels based on racing.

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04-11-2013, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
The margin of error couldnt possibly be "huge" eva, as consider with thoroughbred racing you have track records that in some cases go back to the late 19th century when stopwatches (along with photography) were used pre-electronic timing devices. The Kentucky Derby for example at Churchill Downs, youve got Secretariat in 73, Monarchos in 2001, Northern Dancer in 1964 in the top 3. I dont understand why you'd think given that the rink dimensions like a track dont change and with all things being equal, how there could possibly be a "huge" difference. If that were the case, then legendary horses like Man O' War, Seabiscuit & countless others as ranked amongst the top fastest all time based on their clocked numbers alone would've been tossed by the racing fraternity & breeders long long ago. If one were to follow such logic, the stud fee's charged in retirement utterly bogus, a fraud of such a vast & gargantuan scale as to be beyond diabolical. Youd throw the entire bloodstock industry into disarray, panic.... not even Dick Francis would come up with so implausible a premise for his dime novels based on racing.
I'm not sure how large the margin for error is but if you read the Province and the high school football report, there are references to a certain teams fast speed guys taking .3 and .4 seconds off of their 40 times (reported versus actual electronic testing later in the year).

Like I said earlier it almost doesn't matter what Richard's top flight speed was, he had real hockey speed with the puck from the blueline in and knew what to do with it, much like his later namesake Bure.

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04-12-2013, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I'm not sure how large the margin for error is but if you read the Province and the high school football report, there are references to a certain teams fast speed guys taking .3 and .4 seconds off of their 40 times (reported versus actual electronic testing later in the year)... Like I said earlier it almost doesn't matter what Richard's top flight speed was, he had real hockey speed with the puck from the blueline in and knew what to do with it, much like his later namesake Bure.
No, I dont actually follow highschool football Hv, though I understand its enormously popular out here and has produced quite the list of guys who have gone on to CIAU, NCAA & pro careers. That drop in times though, shaving almost a 1/2 a second off? Its possible, easily accomplished if previously the kids hadnt had any coaching pursuant to a start, as in launch from a semi prone crouch position absent actual starting blocks.... as for Bure, are there any recorded times for Pavel? Must be. He was without a doubt in my mind the fastest skater Ive ever seen, and that includes Bobby Hull & Frank Mahovlich, Cournoyer, Lafleur, the lot of them. He had to have been at least a 1/2 a step ahead (if not even more) of even Gartner.

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04-12-2013, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
I dont understand why you'd think given that the rink dimensions like a track dont change and with all things being equal, how there could possibly be a "huge" difference..
Here's something you can do.

Get a stopwatch or similar device.

Watch this video, and time the skaters.


And then post your times.

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04-12-2013, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
No, I dont actually follow highschool football Hv, though I understand its enormously popular out here and has produced quite the list of guys who have gone on to CIAU, NCAA & pro careers. That drop in times though, shaving almost a 1/2 a second off? Its possible, easily accomplished if previously the kids hadnt had any coaching pursuant to a start, as in launch from a semi prone crouch position absent actual starting blocks.... as for Bure, are there any recorded times for Pavel? Must be. He was without a doubt in my mind the fastest skater Ive ever seen, and that includes Bobby Hull & Frank Mahovlich, Cournoyer, Lafleur, the lot of them. He had to have been at least a 1/2 a step ahead (if not even more) of even Gartner.
The difficulty in assessing Bure's speed in timed circumstances is that Pavel never switched on his extra gear except in game situations. It also appears he was only ever timed once. He participated in the 1998 Fastest Skater competition against Tony Amonte; there was, in fact, some controversy because the latter had extended his stick as he crossed the line, thus officially beating Bure though Pavel's body crossed first.

The time should be available. Regardless, he didn't look as if he was demonstrating his ability to its fullest, and it was also post-1995 ACL injury. Someone had posted the race on YouTube, but it's since been removed. For whatever reason, he did not participate in the 1994 Fastest Skater competition, instead doing the puck relay, the breakaway relay, and the hardest shot competition. In 2000, again, he wasn't asked to do any of the individual events. Same in 2001. There's nothing in writing available about the events he participated in for the 1993 All-Star Skills Competition, though there is footage of him in the breakaway relay against Patrick Roy and of him participating in the puck relay. He did not participate that year either in the Fastest Skater competition:

Pavel Bure at the 1993 All-Star Skills Competition:

Puck Relay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix_Rtj9J4nw
Breakaway Relay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ATODb7vqYc

---------------------------------
http://www.pbfc.org/oldnews.html

1994 Skills Competition summary:
Quote:
In the Puck Control event of the Super Skills competition, the team of Wayne Gretzky, Teemu Selanne was defeated by Pierre Turgeon, Alex Mogilny and Joe Sakic. Unfortunately Bure and Selanne both lost control of the puck on the first pylon.
In the Hardest Shot category, Bure's 96.7 mph was the early leader but finished fourth behind Al Iafrate 102.7, Al McInnis 95.2 and Chris Chelios 97.2.
In the Breakaway Relay, Pavel's shot was stopped by John VanBriesbrouck.
*McInnis' "95.2" is a typo. It's from a newsletter summary.

Quote:
All-Star skills results
by Mark Miller - - Calgary Sun
Saturday, February 5, 2000

Pavel did not compete in any individual events, but was entered instead in two team shooting competitions.
In 2001, he participated in the "pass-and-score" and the breakaway relay again.

Quote:
Dodge/NHL SuperSkills event descriptions
- - NHL.com
February 03, 2001

PASS AND SCORE (Shooters in parentheses)
...
N.A.
Sean Burke, 1 goal against (Milan Hejduk, Ziggy Palffy, Markus Naslund)
Martin Brodeur, 2 goals against (Peter Forsberg, Radek Bonk, Marian Hossa)
Patrick Roy, 0 goals against (Pavel Bure, Mats Sundin, Alexei Kovalev)

BREAKAWAY RELAY
...
Round 3
Janne Niinimaa (S), Fredrik Modin (S), Teppo Numminen (G), Alexei Kovalev (S), Sergei Samsonov (G), Pavel Bure (G) vs. Patrick Roy (3 goals-3 saves)


An interesting thing to note about the '98 event:
Quote:
Bure ready to defend All-Star MVP honor
by Mike Russo - - Sun-Sentinel
February 03, 2001

...

Bure said the most important thing this weekend is not to get hurt, which is why he'll stick to shooting events in tonight's skills competition and won't take part in the fastest skater competition, an event he could contend for.

He'd rather take care of his knees and groins so it doesn't affect the rest of his season. Bure has played all 54 games.

Plus, Bure still thinks he was robbed in Vancouver in 1998 when Scott Niedermayer won the fastest skater event.

“I thought I clearly won it,” Bure said. “Something happened with the radar.”
I suppose we won't know unless somebody has a copy of the 1998 Skills Competition on tape. The only time he ever raced in a timed event was at the 48th All Star Game in Vancouver in 1998.


Last edited by JetsAlternate: 04-12-2013 at 02:18 AM.
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04-12-2013, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
...And then post your times.
Unfortunately dont have a stopwatch nor the chronograph function on any timepieces eva. What do you come up with?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
The difficulty in assessing Bure's speed in timed circumstances is that Pavel never switched on his extra gear except in game situations.
That makes sense, and sort of what I figured. Thoroughbreds run scared. Fear of losing. Some sprinters, certainly on the field or ice, you see that frequently. Fear of being caught, a 6th gear magically kicking in. Absent that factor, top gear cant be engaged. Then the ACL... but none the less, just based on what I saw live & in-person, on TV, no question in my mind Pavel was the fastest skater I'd ever seen bar none.

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04-12-2013, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
That makes sense, and sort of what I figured. Thoroughbreds run scared. Fear of losing. Some sprinters, certainly on the field or ice, you see that frequently. Fear of being caught, a 6th gear magically kicking in. Absent that factor, top gear cant be engaged.
Excellent point!

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04-12-2013, 07:03 AM
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Kilrea. Mentioned him in another thread. 1928 the guy does a lap in 16 2/5ths. Brother, Uncle, Great Uncle etc to all the rest of the Kilrea's of course. Former Speedskater, playing in the NHL for like 6 years. Faster than the Stratford Streak Howie Morenz & Fred Cyclone Taylor and described by contemporaries still alive in the 60's as being very much like Bobby Hull, as in "identical" according to Ralph Mellanby who was told such by Newsy Lalonde... Kilrea was also awarded the Distinguished Service Cross, the Purple Heart & the French Croix de guerre during WW2.
Keep in mind that they were doing these timed laps with the puck as well.

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04-12-2013, 07:09 AM
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Comparisons

Maurice Richard's time was carrying the puck. Recent times should be used as comparables taking this into account. Skating without the puck produces a faster time.

Hand timed margin of error? Margin of error contains a +/- element which is overlooked by the modern era proponents. In other words Richard's time could just as easily been faster.

Track times. Track conditions, track composition - cinder, dirt, grass, synthetic plus wind factors are always considerations regardless of the timing method.

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04-12-2013, 07:48 AM
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Unfortunately dont have a stopwatch nor the chronograph function on any timepieces eva. What do you come up with?
Do you have a smartphone?

Quote:
That makes sense, and sort of what I figured. Thoroughbreds run scared. Fear of losing. Some sprinters, certainly on the field or ice, you see that frequently. Fear of being caught, a 6th gear magically kicking in. Absent that factor, top gear cant be engaged. Then the ACL... but none the less, just based on what I saw live & in-person, on TV, no question in my mind Pavel was the fastest skater I'd ever seen bar none.
Bure was definitely one of the fastest ones, but what made him look so fast was his ability to get to top speed quickly; Fedorov, among others, had a higher top speed.

Also, while looking at videos recently, I came across this gem showing the 1996 skills competition (Fedorov's fastest All-Star Skills time):



Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Maurice Richard's time was carrying the puck. Recent times should be used as comparables taking this into account. Skating without the puck produces a faster time.

Hand timed margin of error? Margin of error contains a +/- element which is overlooked by the modern era proponents. In other words Richard's time could just as easily been faster.
This is entirely true. But based on sampling we have (such as from high school football players) it falls much more on the side of "too fast" than "too slow". This is because the button is not pressed until the runner/skater starts, but the stopwatch operator is "ready" for the finish, and tries to press it as accurately as possible on the finish line. This ends with the entire lap not having been recorded; in fact the slowest portion (the startup) is missed; meaning that the runner/skater is in or near full stride by the time he is being recorded. That's huge. Especially if he's not recorded for a full lap. What could Fedorov, Gartner, or Bure post for 99% of a lap if it were done by stopwatch? 12.5 seconds?

Track times. Track conditions, track composition - cinder, dirt, grass, synthetic plus wind factors are always considerations regardless of the timing method.[/QUOTE]

Not to mention track quality.

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04-12-2013, 08:21 AM
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Without the Puck

Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post

Also, while looking at videos recently, I came across this gem showing the 1996 skills competition (Fedorov's fastest All-Star Skills time):





This is entirely true. But based on sampling we have (such as from high school football players) it falls much more on the side of "too fast" than "too slow". This is because the button is not pressed until the runner/skater starts, but the stopwatch operator is "ready" for the finish, and tries to press it as accurately as possible on the finish line. This ends with the entire lap not having been recorded; in fact the slowest portion (the startup) is missed; meaning that the runner/skater is in or near full stride by the time he is being recorded. That's huge. Especially if he's not recorded for a full lap. What could Fedorov, Gartner, or Bure post for 99% of a lap if it were done by stopwatch? 12.5 seconds?

Track times. Track conditions, track composition - cinder, dirt, grass, synthetic plus wind factors are always considerations regardless of the timing method.
Not to mention track quality.[/QUOTE]


The Fedorov videos are without the puck which makes a great difference going into the four corners. Without the puck a skater can cut the corners whereas with the puck he cannot. also the skater has to control the puck.So the Fedorov times with the puck would be higher, easily negating any timing bias that is alleged

The high school football player sampling is too vague to be of value.The times alleged are not linemen times. They seem to be ball carrier times running without the ball which are quite useless in the context of how the game is played. Running speed with the ball is what matters when evaluating offensive ball carriers talent.Ball changes the symmetry of weight distribution. Nor would a straight line 40 properly evaluate receiver or defensive back speed. .

Your timing explanation is very weak. Every race, be it hockey, track, car, horse, etc was hand timed until recently so this slow start-up bias you allege would have been present in all instances. Yet this is not the case as demonstrated up thread for horse racing. Likewise for the timing in the 40 for FB evaluations - around since at least 50 years. The major differences in 40 times during FB evaluations is not the method of evaluation hand held or machine. Same holds for hockey.

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04-12-2013, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Not to mention track quality.

The Fedorov videos are without the puck which makes a great difference going into the four corners. Without the puck a skater can cut the corners whereas with the puck he cannot. also the skater has to control the puck.So the Fedorov times with the puck would be higher, easily negating any timing bias that is alleged

The high school football player sampling is too vague to be of value.The times alleged are not linemen times. They seem to be ball carrier times running without the ball which are quite useless in the context of how the game is played. Running speed with the ball is what matters when evaluating offensive ball carriers talent.Ball changes the symmetry of weight distribution. Nor would a straight line 40 properly evaluate receiver or defensive back speed.[/quote]

http://www.sbnation.com/college-foot...ard-dash-times

I'd like you to note something. Mississippi State defensive back Darius Slay's high school 40yd time is 4.37 seconds. By comparison, Usain Bolt's 40-yard dash time is 4.1 seconds. We are expected to believe that a physically immature amateur football player is almost as fast as a physically mature professional athlete, let alone the world record holder in multiple Olympic events and consensus "fastest man on Earth"?

Alternatively, there was a timing error.

Quote:
Your timing explanation is very weak. Every race, be it hockey, track, car, horse, etc was hand timed until recently so this slow start-up bias you allege would have been present in all instances. Yet this is not the case as demonstrated up thread for horse racing. Likewise for the timing in the 40 for FB evaluations - around since at least 50 years. The major differences in 40 times during FB evaluations is not the method of evaluation hand held or machine. Same holds for hockey.
Saying it was done isn't demonstrating ACCURACY.

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04-12-2013, 11:03 AM
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Do you have a smartphone?
Sure. But I still struggle with how to answer it, dial out, beyond complicated. Stupid ****ing touch screen... oh, how I miss my Samsung flip-phone, earlier car battery sized Motorola port-a-packer. Like a WW2 era field phone t'was. Big huge buttons. Never mind it weighed about 127lbs. Worked just fine. Why? You telling me this piece a crap has a stopwatch on it as well?... who knew? I wouldnt trust it as far as I can spit if it does. Odious, suspicious device. Tracking chip in the damn thing. CIA, NSA, FBI, CSIS, RCMP, Interpol... black helicopters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Running speed with the ball is what matters when evaluating offensive ball carriers talent.
Absolutely.... if your a Kidnapper for example, and you snatch a baby from a perambulator and theres a cop nearby, maybe several, they see you, Id be willing to bet you'd give Secretariat a run for his money. Like that movie Shoot em Up starring Clive Owen, Paul Giamatti & Monica Belluci. The stunts they performed with that baby wrapped in swaddling at warp speed, pretty incredible...

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04-12-2013, 11:03 AM
  #24
BraveCanadian
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For the sake of argument, add a full second on to his time for inaccuracy and Richard still is competitive with the fastest skaters now.

While wearing way worse skates.

I think that is the point to take away from this -- not getting sucked into some technicality which is really a red herring to try and change the discussion to another of the "today's players are bionic superheroes" threads.

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04-12-2013, 11:07 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The Fedorov videos are without the puck which makes a great difference going into the four corners. Without the puck a skater can cut the corners whereas with the puck he cannot.
This is only true if a player is turning to the backhand. Even with a straight blade, the puck is fairly easy to contain on the forehand while turning to that side. Especially for a star player.

Richard did shoot from the left, but as he used a straight blade, it would have been easier for him to carry the puck on the backhand than it would for Fedorov, a lefty who used a curved blade.

And finally... if you have trouble cutting the corners on a skating track such as is used for the NHL skills competition while carrying a puck... then you need to work on your puckhandling.

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