HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Maurice Richard's Speed

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-12-2013, 11:10 AM
  #26
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
For the sake of argument, add a full second on to his time for inaccuracy and Richard still is competitive with the fastest skaters now.

While wearing way worse skates.

I think that is the point to take away from this -- not getting sucked into some technicality which is really a red herring to try and change the discussion to another of the "today's players are bionic superheroes" threads.
Andrew Cogliano is competitive with today's fastest players also.

It doesn't mean much if you don't do much with it. Richard did, but his time as posted above shows nothing about how any other skills he has would translate to the modern day.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-12-2013, 11:12 AM
  #27
Habtchum*
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,726
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Maurice Richard's time was carrying the puck. Recent times should be used as comparables taking this into account. Skating without the puck produces a faster time.

Hand timed margin of error? Margin of error contains a +/- element which is overlooked by the modern era proponents. In other words Richard's time could just as easily been faster.

Track times. Track conditions, track composition - cinder, dirt, grass, synthetic plus wind factors are always considerations regardless of the timing method.
And what about the skates? A world of difference between then and now.

Habtchum* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-12-2013, 11:18 AM
  #28
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,284
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Andrew Cogliano is competitive with today's fastest players also.

It doesn't mean much if you don't do much with it. Richard did, but his time as posted above shows nothing about how any other skills he has would translate to the modern day.
Another red herring.

I think it is pretty clear that Richard could do things with the puck as well as skate.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-12-2013, 11:30 AM
  #29
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 24,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maltese View Post
And what about the skates? A world of difference between then and now.
Yes, tube skates were far superior, give you that much.
Your modern players absolutely at a disadvantage.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-12-2013, 11:32 AM
  #30
Habtchum*
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,726
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Yes, tube skates were far superior, give you that much.
Your modern players absolutely at a disadvantage.
The leather boots were less rigid and way faster...

Habtchum* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-12-2013, 12:16 PM
  #31
LeBlondeDemon10
BlindLemon Haystacks
 
LeBlondeDemon10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,171
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Andrew Cogliano is competitive with today's fastest players also.

It doesn't mean much if you don't do much with it. Richard did, but his time as posted above shows nothing about how any other skills he has would translate to the modern day.
What does it matter if Richard's skills do or do not translate to the modern day? He posted a great time carrying the puck for his and any other era.

LeBlondeDemon10 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-12-2013, 12:24 PM
  #32
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,916
vCash: 500
Fairness

The only element of fairness that is missing in the comparison is that regardless of era the test is not run clockwise and counterclockwise with the total result reported.

Other objections as properly described by some are just ways of deflecting from the talent of the older generations of hockey talent.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-12-2013, 12:27 PM
  #33
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,916
vCash: 500
Speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Andrew Cogliano is competitive with today's fastest players also.

It doesn't mean much if you don't do much with it. Richard did, but his time as posted above shows nothing about how any other skills he has would translate to the modern day.
Speed is the only skill being compared and it is a constant comparable throughout the history of hockey.

Illustrate where a lack of speed(today`s PP?) was or is a hockey virtue and we may have something.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-12-2013, 01:29 PM
  #34
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,581
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
I suppose we won't know unless somebody has a copy of the 1998 Skills Competition on tape. The only time he ever raced in a timed event was at the 48th All Star Game in Vancouver in 1998.
Regarding Bure in 1998 I can say that for certainty that Niedermayer didn't win the fastest skater event legitimately. I remember it very clearly because it was a North America vs. the World thing at the time. So I paid attention moreso. But I remember watching with the naked eye live on TV and clearly seeing with my own two eyes that he was not across the finish line first. I don't put a lot of stock into the fastest skater events. Bure rarely took part in it, same as Selanne. Kariya never raced eitherso who knows what could have happened. There are times when Gartner or even Fedorov won and you could easily say they were the fastest skaters in the game either way. But Bill Guerin won it once, so.........

Anyway, back to Richard. Yes he was very fast. An excellent skater with natural speed coupled with the drive to score. Ted Lindsay has claimed that there would never be a player in 1,000 years who was as good as the Rocket from the blueline in. So yes, his contemporaries thought he was very fast too.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-12-2013, 04:43 PM
  #35
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 24,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
And finally... if you have trouble cutting the corners on a skating track such as is used for the NHL skills competition while carrying a puck... then you need to work on your puckhandling.
... yes this is very true. Consider as well though that ice surfacing back in the day was nowhere nearly as beyond excellent as it is today. It was considerably slower, and, you'd encounter bumps, ruts & grooves that would send the disc squirting off your stick that even the most skilled of puckhandlers & carriers cant control. Cant put the toothpaste back in the tube... and you know what? Beyond plausible if not entirely probable that on modern 21st century ice surfaces, a Richard, Hull, Mahovlich, in fact quite a few more woulda cleaned Sergei's, Gartners, take your pick, totally cleaned their clock's eva. Smoked em' all like Peace Pipe's....

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-12-2013, 08:03 PM
  #36
mbhhofr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Las Vegas
Country: United States
Posts: 507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... yes this is very true. Consider as well though that ice surfacing back in the day was nowhere nearly as beyond excellent as it is today. It was considerably slower, and, you'd encounter bumps, ruts & grooves that would send the disc squirting off your stick that even the most skilled of puckhandlers & carriers cant control. Cant put the toothpaste back in the tube... and you know what? Beyond plausible if not entirely probable that on modern 21st century ice surfaces, a Richard, Hull, Mahovlich, in fact quite a few more woulda cleaned Sergei's, Gartners, take your pick, totally cleaned their clock's eva. Smoked em' all like Peace Pipe's....

mbhhofr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-12-2013, 10:29 PM
  #37
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I think it is pretty clear that Richard could do things with the puck as well as skate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
What does it matter if Richard's skills do or do not translate to the modern day? He posted a great time carrying the puck for his and any other era.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Speed is the only skill being compared and it is a constant comparable throughout the history of hockey.
I think it's important to note that I was stating not that Richard was incapable of performing, but rather that it doesn't matter whether his time was 14 seconds or 140 seconds; it says NOTHING about his other skills and especially does not translate across eras. The post I was responding to implied the opposite.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-13-2013, 01:27 AM
  #38
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,377
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
Someone years from now, who wasn't born when Gartner accomplished his 13.510, will say the same thing.
I've already had an argument with someone who claims that loads of players from '95 onwards where faster than Gartner they just don't "try hard" in the skills competition

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-13-2013, 02:31 AM
  #39
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
I've already had an argument with someone who claims that loads of players from '95 onwards where faster than Gartner they just don't "try hard" in the skills competition
There probably were loads of players faster than Gartner from the late 90s onwards; he was old and (for him) slow in the late 90s.

But the fact that Gartner set that time at that age says something. Because nobody disputed him being considered the fastest skater then, and he had slowed down with age.

Just how fast was Mike Gartner in his prime?

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-13-2013, 02:36 AM
  #40
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,377
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
There probably were loads of players faster than Gartner from the late 90s onwards; he was old and (for him) slow in the late 90s.

But the fact that Gartner set that time at that age says something. Because nobody disputed him being considered the fastest skater then, and he had slowed down with age.

Just how fast was Mike Gartner in his prime?
Not the point that was being made. This person was saying that there were loads of players from the '90s onward who were faster than Gartner at his in-prime fastest.

I watched him as a Cap in the '80s and I can honestly say he's the fastest skater I've ever seen in the NHL and that included Pavel Bure.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-13-2013, 02:43 AM
  #41
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Not the point that was being made. This person was saying that there were loads of players from the '90s onward who were faster than Gartner at his in-prime fastest.
Now that's just a silly statement. There might be a handful of guys who could come close to how fast he was as an "old man".

Quote:
I watched him as a Cap in the '80s and I can honestly say he's the fastest skater I've ever seen in the NHL and that included Pavel Bure.
I don't know why Bure's your first go-to... plenty of guys have faster top-end than Bure. Definitely agree on Gartner having the best high-end speed though. Guys like Bure, Coffey, and Fedorov had better agility, though; better ability to maintain speed through traffic.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-13-2013, 02:48 AM
  #42
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,377
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Now that's just a silly statement. There might be a handful of guys who could come close to how fast he was as an "old man".
Obviously he was making the old "today's players are bionic supermen" argument. As opposed to those non-athletic '80s Neanderthals


Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I don't know why Bure's your first go-to... plenty of guys have faster top-end than Bure. Definitely agree on Gartner having the best high-end speed though. Guys like Bure, Coffey, and Fedorov had better agility, though; better ability to maintain speed through traffic.
Probably because when fastest skaters are brought up Bure is usually one of the first three players named.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-13-2013, 02:56 AM
  #43
JetsAlternate
Registered User
 
JetsAlternate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,250
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Probably because when fastest skaters are brought up Bure is usually one of the first three players named.
I honestly believe, for a player to be considered "fast," acceleration must be taken into account as well. I don't think the concepts of "having speed" and "being fast" are necessarily the same at all. In extreme cases of lacking acceleration, it's no use for a player to have higher top-end speed when it takes much longer to reach it. I agree there may be certain skaters with higher top-end speed than Pavel, but when acceleration and explosiveness are factored in, the time it takes to skate a certain distance will be affected. Being able to maintain that top-end speed is also a factor, which would make distance and agility crucial as well. When turning, some players lose a portion of their speed; others maintain it. Certain skaters will perform better in short-distance races than lengthier ones and depending on the track as well.

In a rink-length race against someone with lower acceleration but higher top-end speed, Pavel would be ahead up until a certain point. If a player has marginally better top-end speed than he does and significantly lower acceleration, the distance it would take to pass him in a head-to-head race would increase significantly, perhaps to a point where the other skater would not be able to catch him in a reasonable amount of time.

This explains why few players, if anyone, could catch him on a breakaway or even on an end-to-end rush. How long it would take to catch up depends on each individual skater. I would classify Pavel as one of the fastest skaters in the league for that reason.

Acceleration is as crucial as top-end speed. How fast a person is depends on speed, acceleration, and agility. Though his speed was terrific and only surpassed by a few others in his time as a player, Bure's explosiveness and agility allowed him to shine and pull ahead of nearly everyone else in terms of how fast he could skate.


Last edited by JetsAlternate: 04-13-2013 at 03:06 AM.
JetsAlternate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-13-2013, 02:57 AM
  #44
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Probably because when fastest skaters are brought up Bure is usually one of the first three players named.
Which is, as I've said, because of his a) acceleration from a stop, and b) his agility. Not his actual top speed.

A lot of guys could hit his speed or faster, but couldn't do it as quickly or change directions as abruptly. It's what made Bure, well, Bure. If we want a comparable player; Selanne was faster before his knee injury around 2000, but never had Bure's agility or acceleration.

On the flip side, there's a guy like Steve Yzerman who (pre-1988 knee injury) was one of the best skaters out there, and although he brought speed (not quite Bure-level) his calling card when it came to skating was agility. That injury changed Yzerman greatly; he couldn't be the same player because he was no longer as fast or as agile. Much like Richard's achilles injury. And we will probably see a difference in the game of Erik Karlsson next season.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-13-2013, 03:18 AM
  #45
JetsAlternate
Registered User
 
JetsAlternate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,250
vCash: 500
Here is an example of Bure's explosiveness having a huge effect on how fast he pulls ahead of even the greatest of skaters.

Two factors that might detract from this particular example: 1) Pavel starts to skate at his own blue line. He doesn't turn on the jets until he's at center ice, though, so this might not be as important. 2) Coffey has to turn. When both are parallel, both are arguably facing the same direction. Coffey's potentially caught here, but regardless, some have claimed his top speed to be higher than Pavel's. In a world where acceleration doesn't matter, Coffey should be able to catch Pavel.

Pavel explodes through the neutral zone around the same time Coffey turns. The latter can't catch him, primarily because Pavel has a step on him, but also because Coffey can't accelerate to the same degree as Pavel. Even with his higher top speed, he's left well behind, and it looks like a complete mismatch. As Coffey gains speed, Pavel pulls even further away:

6:57



The combination of acceleration and speed ultimately make Pavel even faster than those with higher top speed alone.


Last edited by JetsAlternate: 04-13-2013 at 03:43 AM.
JetsAlternate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-13-2013, 03:31 AM
  #46
Evincar
Not God, Grodd
 
Evincar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,610
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
6:57

And that was after he tore his ACL.

Evincar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-13-2013, 03:39 AM
  #47
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
The combination of acceleration and speed ultimately make Pavel even faster than those with higher top speed alone.
Something you didn't note, in this particular video, is that Coffey skates to within stick range of Bure and then basically "waterskis". He's not skating anymore after that point; just being pulled along. It's a good example of how Pavel could beat defensemen with his sudden speed (although he had help because the other Flyers defenseman fell down), but it's flawed as a comparison to other "high-level" skaters.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-13-2013, 03:46 AM
  #48
JetsAlternate
Registered User
 
JetsAlternate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,250
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Something you didn't note, in this particular video, is that Coffey skates to within stick range of Bure and then basically "waterskis". He's not skating anymore after that point; just being pulled along. It's a good example of how Pavel could beat defensemen with his sudden speed (although he had help because the other Flyers defenseman fell down), but it's flawed as a comparison to other "high-level" skaters.
It's not exactly the best example, certainly. Ideally, both skaters would have begun to skate at the same time. It is a very good demonstration of Pavel's explosiveness, though. At the red line, he appears to suddenly receive a huge boost forward. It's part of what made Pavel unique as a skater. He would just take off instantly; not only that, he actually seemed faster with the puck than without it. He victimized Coffey many times during his career. For whatever reason, he'd catch the latter flat-footed quite often. I will hopefully have other footage to examine soon.

Notice how he picks up that rebound after his initial chance. Not only were his feet quick, but his hands were too. His hand-eye coordination was excellent. There are instances when he could pick up rebounds quicker than anybody else could spot the puck. He was particularly effective in goal-mouth scrambles because he'd chop at the puck multiple times. That's maybe aside from the topic at hand, but it's neat to mention.


Last edited by JetsAlternate: 04-13-2013 at 04:31 AM.
JetsAlternate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-13-2013, 05:18 AM
  #49
ot92s
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 741
vCash: 500
bure could fly but i don't anybody was faster than coffey. Paul has several equals but if someone was faster consistently, in game, please show me some video. Coffey was like orr, so smooth. As for bure catching him flatfooted... pavel was on the wrong end of getting caught flatfooted many times as well so i don'think that is very significant.

Here's coffeey generating a ton of speed with, like, two crossovers and torching the leafs in coast mode, around 5:50

ot92s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-13-2013, 06:01 AM
  #50
Theokritos
Moderator
 
Theokritos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,629
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
Here is an example of Bure's explosiveness having a huge effect on how fast he pulls ahead of even the greatest of skaters. (...)
You're aware that Coffey was 36 years and 6 months old (emphasis on old) at that time, right?

Theokritos is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:28 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.