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Jagr, victim of revisionist history?

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Old
04-13-2013, 09:38 AM
  #1
livewell68
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Jagr, victim of revisionist history?

There were two threads in the General Hockey Talk section that really got me upset about the way some fans talk about Jagr.

Since the posters in the History section are some of the most knowledgeable and objective posters, I'd like to see your opinions.

One of the arguments I raised was that Jagr in his prime had the skating ability of Kovalchuk, the passing and vision of Crosby, Sedin and Thornton, the lower body strength and puck possession skills of Crosby, the snap/ wrist shooting ability of Kovalchuk, Stamkos and Semin, the flash and reach of Malkin and the stickhandling ability of Datsyuk. I called him the total offensive package and then some claimed they watched him all their lives and that that description is not realistic.

Then some fans claimed that in today's NHL with all the obstruction rules that a healthy, prime Jagr would barely beat Crosby for the Art Ross.

Another element that was raised was how apparently Jagr mailed it in the playoffs and was never any good.

Considering he was a dominant force in most of the non-Lemieux teams in the playoffs with numerous game winning goals, big series, I just don't think that is an accurate assessment.

What do you posters think?

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04-13-2013, 09:47 AM
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Darth Yoda
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Hey Cowboy, people may dismiss some skills of players trying to produce during the DPE, but Jagr hardly possessed all the traits of the players named in your post to 100 percent.

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04-13-2013, 09:50 AM
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livewell68
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Hey Cowboy, people may dismiss some skills of players trying to produce during the DPE, but Jagr hardly possessed all the traits of the players named in your post to 100 percent.
Here is the thing, I'm open to debate and I'd like to know why you think he hardly possessed all the traits of the players named to 100 percent?

He was in his prime the game's best playmaker and if not the best goalscorer, top 2 pretty much every season.

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04-13-2013, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Here is the thing, I'm open to debate and I'd like to know why you think he hardly possessed all the traits of the players named to 100 percent?

He was in his prime the game's best playmaker and if not the best goalscorer, top 2 pretty much every season.
If he had gone for scoring as many goals as possible at the cost of his game in general he might have been as good a goalscorer as Ovechkin was or Stamkos seem to be, but i've never really gotten my head around how to look at such a scenario when the reality was not that way. Lemieux and Gretzky could have easily scored over 100 goals!
But yeah, it's easy to forget just how dominant Jagr was offensively, and i'm a Pittsburgh fan! The game just was so bad and slow back then that i get neusia(Spelling?) just thinking about it.

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04-13-2013, 10:04 AM
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As a lifelong CHI fan I didn't watch Jagr night in and night out... he was absolutely a force on the ice... great shot, skating, puck protection from what I recall, and could certainly stick handle great... but Im not sure about the Datsuyk comparison. To me Datsuyk is shifty and agile in a way the few could ever hope to be... not a knock against Jagr but he's got like 40 or 50 pounds on Dats? I just don't see them having truly comparable agility.

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04-13-2013, 10:13 AM
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livewell68
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
If he had gone for scoring as many goals as possible at the cost of his game in general he might have been as good a goalscorer as Ovechkin was or Stamkos seem to be, but i've never really gotten my head around how to look at such a scenario when the reality was not that way. Lemieux and Gretzky could have easily scored over 100 goals!
But yeah, it's easy to forget just how dominant Jagr was offensively, and i'm a Pittsburgh fan! The game just was so bad and slow back then that i get neusia(Spelling?) just thinking about it.
Here is the thing though, Stamkos and Ovechkin have won Rocket Richard trophies sure, but Jagr was no slouch whatsoever when it came to putting the puck in the net. We are talking about Jagr's prime right? Have a look at this stat. Most will consider 1994-95 to 2000-01 to be Jagr's true prime. In that time span he played 495 games and scored 314 goals, that's a GPG (goals per game) of 0.63 or over 82 games 52 goals a season average. That says to me that he would have been a perennial Rocket Richard trophy candidate or winner if healthy at all times. This is without mentioning that he was the game's best playmaker in the same timeframe where he amassed 446 assists in the same 495 games which is 0.90 APG (assists per game) or 74 assists a season over 82 game schedules. Between 1994-95 and 2000-01 he pretty much averaged 126 Pts a season over 82 games. Looking at it this way, it seems my description of his game was pretty accurate. You tell me.

Bad and slow eh?

There was a thread earlier where the question was raised on how players are really not getting faster, in fact the fastest skating times at All-Star games came during the 90's pretty much.

The game was stifled back during the "Dead Puck Era" but the fact that Jagr did what he did then would tell me that he would have a field day in today's NHL with the way the game is called.

Did Jagr lack speed, strength, size, smarts, toughness, skill? I think not. He would be the game's best player right now and the gap between him and Crosby and the rest of the NHL would be considerable.

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04-13-2013, 10:19 AM
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I would'nt count the seasons with Lemieux on the same power play. Not fair when Ovechkin and Stamkos got Bäckström and St. Louis. No slouches, but no Le Magnifique either. But sure, Jagr might have had Crosbys lower body strenght(Doubt it not the least du to his height vs. output), and Stamkos release and nose, i'm really not qualified to judge that. Liked his outside-inside move though, how did that differ from Ovechkins old classic one?

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04-13-2013, 10:26 AM
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livewell68
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Originally Posted by zytz View Post
As a lifelong CHI fan I didn't watch Jagr night in and night out... he was absolutely a force on the ice... great shot, skating, puck protection from what I recall, and could certainly stick handle great... but Im not sure about the Datsuyk comparison. To me Datsuyk is shifty and agile in a way the few could ever hope to be... not a knock against Jagr but he's got like 40 or 50 pounds on Dats? I just don't see them having truly comparable agility.
The thing is Jagr did have the shiftiness and agility that Datsyuk had even with all that extra weight.

BTW during Jagr's true prime (1994-95 to 2000-01) Jagr was between 215-228 lbs. He wasn't as big as he'd become in New York or now.

Below are examples of just how shifty and agile Jagr really was even with his big frame.












Also, check "Jagr's Top 10 Career Moments" in NHL.com Network, they have some nice goals he scored with New York despite being 245 lbs and lacking the speed he once had.


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04-13-2013, 10:52 AM
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I just had a thought. Why didn't any team ever try to move him to center? Is it his defensive game, his faceoffs? Something else?

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04-13-2013, 10:58 AM
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livewell68
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
I just had a thought. Why didn't any team ever try to move him to center? Is it his defensive game, his faceoffs? Something else?
It was both. Jagr had all the physical tools to be a great center but he wasn't very good at faceoffs and he was below average in his own zone. Back then though players that were wingers were not usually asked to play center. It was easier for a centerman to switch to wing but not vice versa.

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04-13-2013, 11:05 AM
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Jagr had one of the best hands ever in this game and he knew how to use them with his long reach + the great speed, size, shooting, passing. His prime was during dead puck era. Best player from 96-06 by a big margin. If he didn't do that KHL stint, would be 2nd in career points by now. The ultimate forward and all time top 10.

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04-13-2013, 11:28 AM
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Jagr certainly peaked higher than anyone between Lemieux and now, but we need to look at how good Crosby is performing today.

Both players missed lots of time due to injury (though Crosby did miss a lot more. So let's take a look

Season Jagr's PPG Second's PPG Games Missed Point Difference
1997-98 1.32 1.26 5 5
1998-99 1.57 1.43 1 11
1999-00 1.52 1.35 19 14
2000-01 1.49 1.43 1 5

So while he won every year, he really only had two years where he was blowing the competition away. He lead the league in PPG all years, but in 98 and 99 he benefited from playing against injured players. In 00 he was injured, but still lapped the floor. In 01 Lemieux was back and the fed off each other like crazy.

So he was the best, but he was 5-15 points better than his competition.

If we take a look at Crosby
Season Crosby's PPG Second's PPG Games Missed Point Difference
2010-11 1.61 1.27 41 28
2011-12 1.68 1.45 60 19
2012-13 1.60 1.28 5* 26

Yes, Crosby missed a ton of games and there's a huge question mark over whether he could maintain it. But the point remains that he has been on pace to be better than his competition by 20-30 points ever year. Before he went down to injury this year his domination of competition was at an absurd level. He was outpointing Stamkos by 27%, a level only Gretzky and Howe reached.

I maintain that before Crosby went down for injury we were seeing the best season a player has had since Lemieux's 95-96 campaign.


A Prime Jagr would wipe the floor with almost anyone in the NHL today. He would outpoint the Sedins, Stamkos, Giroux, Tavares, etc. by 15 points every year. A Prime Ovi and Malkin are better than a prime Selanne or Forsberg, but Jagr still beats them handily every year. It's against a Crosby that Jagr wouldn't. Jagr might even LOSE to a Prime Crosby.

Jagr was great, but let's not lose sight of the fact that Crosby 2012-13 season was at a level superior to any season Jagr had save maybe 98-99.


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04-13-2013, 11:45 AM
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livewell68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
Jagr certainly peaked higher than anyone between Lemieux and now, but we need to look at how good Crosby is performing today.

Both players missed lots of time due to injury (though Crosby did miss a lot more. So let's take a look

Season Jagr's PPG Second's PPG Games Missed Point Difference
1997-98 1.32 1.26 5 5
1998-99 1.57 1.43 1 11
1999-00 1.52 1.35 19 14
2000-01 1.49 1.43 1 5

So while he won every year, he really only had two years where he was blowing the competition away. He lead the league in PPG all years, but in 98 and 99 he benefited from playing against injured players. In 00 he was injured, but still lapped the floor. In 01 Lemieux was back and the fed off each other like crazy.

So he was the best, but he was 5-15 points better than his competition.

If we take a look at Crosby
Season Crosby's PPG Second's PPG Games Missed Point Difference
2010-11 1.61 1.27 41 28
2011-12 1.68 1.45 60 19
2012-13 1.60 1.28 5* 26

Yes, Crosby missed a ton of games and there's a huge question mark over whether he could maintain it. But the point remains that he has been on pace to be better than his competition by 20-30 points ever year. Before he went down to injury this year his domination of competition was at an absurd level. He was outpointing Stamkos by 27%, a level only Gretzky and Howe reached.

I maintain that before Crosby went down for injury we were seeing the best season a player has had since Lemieux's 95-96 campaign.


A Prime Jagr would wipe the floor with almost anyone in the NHL today. He would outpoint the Sedins, Stamkos, Giroux, Tavares, etc. by 15 points every year. A Prime Ovi and Malkin are better than a prime Selanne or Forsberg, but Jagr still beats them handily every year. It's against a Crosby that Jagr wouldn't. Jagr might even LOSE to a Prime Crosby.

Jagr was great, but let's not lose sight of the fact that Crosby 2012-13 season was at a level superior to any season Jagr had save maybe 98-99.
Since you are the one that brought up injuries and talked about Crosby's lead in scoring this year, let's talk about the 1999-00 season Jagr put together.

Before he got injured, he had 71 Pts in 39 games (1.82 PPG or 150 Pts pace). Injuries really derailed a season where it would have put Jagr on Lemieux and Gretzky's levels in terms of dominating the competition. Unfortunately he got injured, missed 19 games and only scored 25 Pts in his last 24 games after coming back from injury. If anything, Jagr would have won the Art Ross by 30-40 Pts that season if not for injury. In fact between 1998-99 and the first 39 games in 1999-00, Jagr scored 198 Pts in just 120 games which is a PPG of 1.65 or 135 Pts over 82 games.

Take that season and put it in today's NHL, Jagr would have a 17 goal lead (over Crosby) and 15 Pts lead overall in just 3 more games. Crosby has never played on that level.

Jagr also got injured in 2005-06 during the Olympics and it was believed he was playing with a concussion the last month or so. Anyone remember that dirty from behind hit by Ruttuu? Jagr lost out on many dominant seasons due to injury. Jagr also most likely wins the Art Ross in 1996-97 if not for injuries and he would have 6 to Lemieux' 5.

The difference between Crosby and Jagr is that Jagr maintained a PPG pace of 1.50 or better in 6 seasons while still playing 63 games or more.

Crosby has only hit the 1.50 PPG plateau once in over 60 games and that was 2006-07.

A prime Crosby lost an Art Ross and Hart to Sedin, Jagr would have never allowed that to happen. As for prime Ovechkin and Malkin being better than Forsberg and Selanne, that is debatable since both those players lost many major awards due to playing in the same league as Jagr and Lemieux, yet Malkin and Ovechkin have won more awards than Crosby.

You brought up Crosby's last 3 seasons where he got injured and you're only going by projection stats. You are assuming Crosby would play all 82 games and remain healthy in all 82 games and maintain the same pace, it's not very possible.

Crosby has pretty much had half seasons the last 3 years, in the By the Numbers section, Czech Your Match proves that Jagr has had about 5 better half seasons than any of Crosby's last 3 seasons.

By Czech Your Math

Quote:
I compiled some of the best "half seasons" in recent memory from game logs at HR.com. I did these rather quickly in my head, so there are likely mistakes or omissions. Feel free to correct such.

Some of the best 41+ game streaks from 1994-2012:
# Player Year Gms G A Pts PPG
1 Lemieux 1996 41 45 64 109 2.66
2 Jagr 1996 42 36 51 87 2.07
3 Francis 1996 41 20 57 77 1.88
4 Lemieux 1997 41 31 46 77 1.88
5 Gretzky 1994 46 22 64 86 1.87
6 Jagr 2001 45 33 51 84 1.87
7 Crosby 2007 42 23 53 76 1.81
8 Jagr 2000 41 33 40 73 1.78
9 Lemieux 2001 43 35 41 76 1.77
10 Fedorov 1994 42 32 42 74 1.76
11 Lindros 1997 43 29 44 73 1.70
12 Lemieux 2003 43 20 53 73 1.70
13 Ovechkin 2010 52 42 46 88 1.69
14 Thornton 2006 44 17 57 74 1.68
15 Selanne 1999 41 31 37 68 1.66
16 Bure 1994 43 43 28 71 1.65
17 Forsberg 2003 45 20 54 74 1.64
18 Jagr 1997 44 41 31 72 1.64
19 Jagr 1999 52 27 58 85 1.63
20 Lindros 1995 42 28 40 68 1.62
21 Lindros 1996 47 36 40 76 1.62
22 Crosby 2011 41 32 34 66 1.61
23 Ovechkin 2008 41 36 30 66 1.61
24 Lindros 1999 41 25 41 66 1.61
25 Kovalchuk 2006 41 34 32 66 1.61
26 Thornton 2007 51 14 68 82 1.61
27 Alfredsson 2006 44 32 38 70 1.59
28 Neely 1994 44 50 20 70 1.59
29 Jagr 2006 44 30 40 70 1.59
30 Sakic 2001 62 44 54 98 1.58
31 Malkin 2009 42 17 49 66 1.57
32 Selanne 1996 42 22 44 66 1.57
33 Fedorov 1996 41 23 41 64 1.56
34 Kariya 1997 43 28 39 67 1.56
35 Lindros 1994 51 36 43 79 1.55
36 Malkin 2008 42 33 32 65 1.55
37 Jagr 1998 41 22 41 63 1.54
38 Malkin 2012 41 33 31 63 1.54
39 Crosby 2010 55 39 45 84 1.53
40 Alfredsson 2008 42 29 35 64 1.52
41 Selanne 1997 42 32 32 64 1.52
42 Ovechkin 2009 66 53 47 100 1.52
43 Forsberg 1996 41 16 46 62 1.51
44 Sakic 1996 41 23 39 62 1.51
45 SedinH 2010 41 13 49 62 1.51
46 Yzerman 1994 41 19 43 62 1.51
47 LeClair 1997 46 34 35 69 1.50
48 Ovechkin 2006 44 32 34 66 1.50
49 Iginla 2007 47 28 42 70 1.49
50 Oates 1994 43 19 45 64 1.49
51 Forsberg 2006 41 15 46 61 1.49
52 Gretzky 1996 41 12 49 61 1.49
53 Thornton 2003 41 26 35 61 1.49
54 St. Louis 2007 41 28 33 61 1.49
55 Jagr 1995 41 28 33 61 1.49
56 LeClair 1999 42 29 33 62 1.48
57 Forsberg 2001 41 15 45 60 1.46
58 Stamkos 2010 42 30 28 58 1.45
59 Bure 2001 41 38 21 59 1.44
60 Sakic 2000 42 22 38 60 1.43
61 Gretzky 1997 41 16 42 58 1.41
62 Bure 2000 46 40 25 65 1.41
63 Elias 2001 41 24 33 57 1.39
64 Forsberg 1998 41 16 39 55 1.34
65 Forsberg 2004 41 18 37 55 1.34
66 Forsberg 1999 44 15 43 58 1.32
67 Gretzky 1998 41 12 42 54 1.32
68 Forsberg 2001 66 27 59 86 1.30
By Czech Your Math

Quote:
Some of the best adjusted streaks from 1994-2012:

# Player Year Gms PPG
1 Lemieux 1996 41 2.54
2 Jagr 2001 45 2.01
3 Jagr 1996 42 1.98
4 Lemieux 1997 41 1.94
5 Jagr 2000 41 1.94
6 Lemieux 2001 43 1.90
7 Lemieux 2003 43 1.89
8 Selanne 1999 41 1.88
9 Jagr 1999 52 1.85
10 Forsberg 2003 45 1.83
11 Lindros 1999 41 1.82
12 Crosby 2007 42 1.82
13 Ovechkin 2010 52 1.80
14 Francis 1996 41 1.80
15 Lindros 1997 43 1.76
16 Jagr 1998 41 1.76
17 Ovechkin 2008 41 1.75
18 Crosby 2011 41 1.74
19 Gretzky 1994 46 1.74
20 Malkin 2012 41 1.73
21 Sakic 2001 62 1.70
22 Jagr 1997 44 1.69
23 Malkin 2008 42 1.68
24 LeClair 1999 42 1.67
25 Thornton 2003 41 1.66
26 Alfredsson 2008 42 1.65
27 Fedorov 1994 42 1.64
28 Lindros 1995 42 1.63
29 Crosby 2010 55 1.62
30 Thornton 2006 44 1.62
31 Kariya 1997 43 1.61
32 Thornton 2007 51 1.61
33 Malkin 2009 42 1.61
34 SedinH 2010 41 1.59
35 Selanne 1997 42 1.58
36 Forsberg 2001 41 1.57
37 Kovalchuk 2006 41 1.57
38 Ovechkin 2009 66 1.57
39 Bure 2001 41 1.56
40 Sakic 2000 42 1.55
41 LeClair 1997 46 1.55
42 Alfredsson 2006 44 1.55
43 Lindros 1996 47 1.55
44 Forsberg 2004 41 1.55
45 Jagr 2006 44 1.54
46 Bure 2000 46 1.54
47 Forsberg 1998 41 1.54
48 Bure 1994 43 1.53
49 St. Louis 2007 41 1.51
50 Gretzky 1998 41 1.51
51 Iginla 2007 47 1.51
52 Selanne 1996 42 1.50
53 Jagr 1995 41 1.50
54 Elias 2001 41 1.50
55 Fedorov 1996 41 1.49
56 Forsberg 1999 44 1.49
57 Neely 1994 44 1.47
58 Stamkos 2010 42 1.47
59 Gretzky 1997 41 1.47
60 Stamkos 2012 41 1.47
61 Selanne 1998 46 1.46
62 Ovechkin 2006 44 1.46
63 Forsberg 1996 41 1.45
64 Sakic 1996 41 1.45
65 Jagr 2002 41 1.44
66 Lindros 1994 51 1.44
67 Forsberg 2006 41 1.43
68 Gretzky 1996 41 1.42
69 Elias 2000 43 1.42


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Old
04-13-2013, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post

Jagr was great, but let's not lose sight of the fact that Crosby 2012-13 season was at a level superior to any season Jagr had save maybe 98-99.
How about we not lose sight that it was for only 36 games before we start saying it was a superior SEASON to all but one of Jagr's shall we.

Either way, I'll say what I have said before.
Jagr was a great player but he was also built to play in the DPE.
His margin's of dominance during these times were no doubt a product of his own talent but they were also helped by the obstruction.
It had a greater effect on guys like Kariya and Selanne and therefore without obstruction, they, IMO, would have seen a greater increase in production than Jagr would have.

I have no doubt that Jagr still would have beat them by comfortable amount but I think the margins themselves or the % he beat them by would have shrunk a bit.


As far as some of the other things being said....
Jagr was never as quick as Crosby. Jagr could motor, no doubt but Jagr needed some track to really get going.
Jagr's strength and ability to shield the puck made what Crosby does today almost amateur by comparison.
Jagr had quicker hands than Crosby.
Crosby is a better passer.
Jagr had a much better shot selection and better shot in general, Jagr was the better goal scorer.
Jagr was a lot better one on one.
Crosby has a little better vision.
Crosby plays more defensively responsible in general but Jagr was a much better forechecker and when Jagr wanted the puck, he could take it off of anyone.


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04-13-2013, 12:00 PM
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vadim sharifijanov
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3 things

1. jagr absolutely was as shifty and could dangle like datsyuk. hell, i'd say better. in my lifetime, it's (1) mario, (2) jagr. datsyuk, denis savard, bure, and others all line up after those guys.

2. one wonders whether in another era, jagr wouldn't have put on as much mass as he did in the late 90s. that was a DPE body, and sometimes people say he might not have dominated a different era in the same way. but on the other hand, maybe he stays slimmer if he's 25 in 2012, and he keeps the speed he had when he broke into the league.

3. OP: i imagine your life would be a lot happier if you didn't get upset every time someone said something diminishing about your favourite player. that obviously goes for a few other posters who have been vocal about their favourite players recently. people say awful things about my favourite players constantly. hell, if i type their names-- bure, henrik sedin-- you're probably restraining yourself from typing something degrading about at least one of them right now. but you know, there doesn't always need to be an argument about [you guys know the names i'm talking about] sometimes maybe better to let the haters hate than try to avenge every single little perceived slight.

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04-13-2013, 12:06 PM
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livewell68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
How about we not lose sight that it was for only 36 games before we start saying it was a superior SEASON to all but one of Jagr's shall we.

Either way, I'll say what I have said before.
Jagr was a great player but he was also built to play in the DPE.
His margin's of dominance during these times were no doubt a product of his own talent but they were also helped by the obstruction.
It had a greater effect on guys like Kariya and Selanne and therefore without obstruction, they, IMO, would have seen a greater increase in production than Jagr would have.

I have no doubt that Jagr still would have beat them by comfortable amount but I think the margins themselves or the % he beat them by would have shrunk a bit.
One of Jagr's biggest strengths though was the ability to adapt to different types of play. He broke into the league as a trim, fast, one-on-one player, by the mid 90's he had put on some muscle and weighed around 215-220 lbs and was beating people with size, strength and speed and as he got older and as the game got tighter, the bigger and stronger he got, regardless he still had breakaway speed even in his last seasons with the Penguins.

It was this ability to adapt that makes me think Jagr would have dominated any era post 1995 and would have maintained his gap over his peers regardless of the situation. The game opens up, no problem, Jagr trims down and plays with more speed.

In his prime, Jagr could skate with the best of them, be it Bure, Fedorov, Selanne, Karyia... So that argument doesn't really hold any weight I think.

I think 1994-2001 Jagr is a level that no one since Lemieux and Gretzky has reached or come close to reaching.

I personally think that Crosby's 2006-07 season is his best and even then he had just scratched at Jagr's level of dominance.


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04-13-2013, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
One of Jagr's biggest strengths though was the ability to adapt to different types of play. He broke into the league as a trim, fast, one-on-one player, by the mid 90's he had put on some muscle and weighed around 215-220 lbs and was beating people with size, strength and speed and as he got older and as the game got tighter, the bigger and stronger he got, regardless he still had breakaway speed even in his last seasons with the Penguins.

It was this ability to adapt that makes me think Jagr would have dominated any era post 1995 and would have maintained his gap over his peers regardless of the situation. The game opens up, no problem, Jagr trims down and plays with more speed.

In his prime, Jagr could skate with the best of them, be it Bure, Fedorov, Selanne, Karyia... So that argument doesn't really hold any weight I think.

I think 1994-2001 Jagr is a level that no one since Lemieux and Gretzky have reached.
My point there about the obstruction was how the removal of it would have had a greater effect on Kariya and Selanne than it would have on Jagr.
It wasn't a knock on Jagr, it just would have been more beneficial to Kariya and Selanne.
Jagr's production was going to be high regardless. Kariya's and Selanne's not so much.

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04-13-2013, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
My point there about the obstruction was how the removal of it would have had a greater effect on Kariya and Selanne than it would have on Jagr.
It wasn't a knock on Jagr, it just would have been more beneficial to Kariya and Selanne.
Jagr's production was going to be high regardless. Kariya's and Selanne's not so much.
Ok that's a fair assessment.

Just imagine being able to transplant a prime Selanne, Bure, Lindros, Forsberg, Karyia, Sakic and Jagr into the current NHL scenery what kind of impact they would have had?

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04-13-2013, 12:55 PM
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A prime Crosby lost an Art Ross and Hart to Sedin, Jagr would have never allowed that to happen.
Someone mentioned this in a thread about a month or so ago and now it has come up several more times, some perspective is required here.

First of all Crosby was 22 when Hank won the the Hart over Sid by a vote of

Hank 894
AO 834, he surely would have won without that suspension
Sid 729 then 2 goalies and
Stamkos with 28 points

Second, Sid was playing with a 39 year old Bill Guerin on the RW and Kunitz/Dupuis on his left side, AO had Backstrom and Hank has his twin all star brother playing with him. The Malkinists can't come rushing in either as Malkin played , a poor for him, 67 games that year.

We don't know it but pretty sure points outcomes for the big 3 that year would have been different with all of them having equally good line mates and supporting cast.

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How about we not lose sight that it was for only 36 games before we start saying it was a superior SEASON to all but one of Jagr's shall we.
36 games is 75% of this current season and if he comes back most likely he plays in 80% plus of his teams games.

One can debate about health being a players fault or not, pretty hard to blame Sid for his jaw injury though, but the short season is completely out of any players control.

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Either way, I'll say what I have said before.
Jagr was a great player but he was also built to play in the DPE.
His margin's of dominance during these times were no doubt a product of his own talent but they were also helped by the obstruction.
It had a greater effect on guys like Kariya and Selanne and therefore without obstruction, they, IMO, would have seen a greater increase in production than Jagr would have.

I have no doubt that Jagr still would have beat them by comfortable amount but I think the margins themselves or the % he beat them by would have shrunk a bit.
Pretty much agree with this, Jagr with his body type and skill set didn't suffer under the "clutch and grab era"or CBE as much as other players did.

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04-13-2013, 01:19 PM
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I just had a thought. Why didn't any team ever try to move him to center? Is it his defensive game, his faceoffs? Something else?
Jagr pre NHL did not have a sufficient background playing center. With Pittsburgh there was no incentive to try a center project with Jagr since they had the ideal RHS/LHS center situation with Mario Lemieux and Ron Francis. That would have left 3rd center minutes for Jagr, a waste of talent.

Scotty Bowman had tried Guy Lafleur at center with little success and Jagr's skill toolbox was similar. Also he had seen the success teams had moving star junior centers to the wing - Frank Mahovlich and Bobby Hull so he opted for the optimal solution of Jagr playing his natural wing position.

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04-13-2013, 01:47 PM
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livewell68
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Someone mentioned this in a thread about a month or so ago and now it has come up several more times, some perspective is required here.

First of all Crosby was 22 when Hank won the the Hart over Sid by a vote of

Hank 894
AO 834, he surely would have won without that suspension
Sid 729 then 2 goalies and
Stamkos with 28 points

Second, Sid was playing with a 39 year old Bill Guerin on the RW and Kunitz/Dupuis on his left side, AO had Backstrom and Hank has his twin all star brother playing with him. The Malkinists can't come rushing in either as Malkin played , a poor for him, 67 games that year.

We don't know it but pretty sure points outcomes for the big 3 that year would have been different with all of them having equally good line mates and supporting cast.



36 games is 75% of this current season and if he comes back most likely he plays in 80% plus of his teams games.

One can debate about health being a players fault or not, pretty hard to blame Sid for his jaw injury though, but the short season is completely out of any players control.



Pretty much agree with this, Jagr with his body type and skill set didn't suffer under the "clutch and grab era"or CBE as much as other players did.
How many games did Daniel Sedin play that season? He played less games than Malkin did.

As for the whole linemates argument that you always seem to bring up, Jagr won 2 Art Ross trophies playing with a combination of Kip Miller, Hrdina and Beranek as linemates. Great players can put up big numbers regardless of their linemates.

My point still stands, a prime Jagr would have not allowed Sedin to beat him for the Art Ross.

Between 1994 and 2000, a healthy prime Jagr wins 6 consecutive Art Ross trophies with Lemieux out of the picture, this is an era that included Selanne, Karyia, Lindros, Forsberg, Sakic, Bure in it. 2000-01 is debatable because he was playing uninspired before Lemieux came back and even then Jagr outscored Lemieux in the time they both played. Sedin is not a better player than any of those DPE players BTW.

Jagr's knock might have been that he was playing to win Art Ross trophies which many thought made him selfish but this is what lends me to believe that a prime Jagr in today's NHL would have continued to win Art Ross trophies in the same fashion if not a bit more dominantly. Sure Jagr was built for the DPE but he would have been just unstoppable in today's NHL with all the calls being made on obstruction. Players wouldn't have been able to strip him of the puck legally and would have reverted to hooking, slashing, tripping him and then Jagr would have had powerplays called for his team and then Jagr would have just dominated the powerplay. That is what he did in 2005-06 mind you he was 34.

I think Jagr in today's NHL would have been the 2005-06 version but much quicker as a player and so his point totals would have been anywhere from 120-140 Pts with a high end possibility of 150 Pts. I really think he would have chewed the NHL up.

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Quotations and Perspective:


Jon Scher, SI, 1992:

Quote:

Unlike Gretzky, Lemieux will have the opportunity to school his own successor. He has seen the future of hockey, and its first name, Jaromir, is an anagram for Mario Jr. Jagr, a 20-year-old from Czechoslovakia who joined the Penguins in 1990, scored 32 goals this season, but he didn't truly open up his bag of tricks until Lemieux was injured in the second game of the Patrick Division finals against the Rangers. Since then, he has scored fabulous goal after fabulous goal. Just watching him carry the puck can be a thrill. In Game 1 of the finals he faked and juked his way past three Blackhawks before calmly delivering a backhand shot that tied the score 4-4 late in the third period. "Inexcusable," fumed Keenan. "The greatest goal I've ever seen," gushed Lemieux.
E.M. Swift, SI, 1992:
Quote:
Screaming down the right wing, his long dark hair flopping behind his helmet, the lefthanded-shooting Jagr would time and again beat both defensemen like a pair of rented mules.

"He's a different type of player than the league has seen in a long time," says Scotty Bowman, who coached the Penguins last season and is now the team's director of player development and recruitment. "He has a lot of Frank Mahovlich in him. His skating style and strength make him almost impossible to stop one-on-one. A lot of big guys play with their sticks tight to their bodies and don't use that reach to their advantage like Jaromir does."

...

In style, though, Jagr is something much different from Lemieux. "When Mario gets the puck, he's always thinking, Where can I put it?" says Bowman. "He'll pass the puck off and get himself in a better situation to score than he was in. When Jaromir gets the puck, he's always thinking, Where can I go with it? He reminds me of Maurice Richard in that way. They both played the off-wing, and both had so many moves I don't think either knew which moves they were going to do until they did them. Totally unpredictable."

Gerry Callahan, SI, 1995:
Quote:
"They've got different styles, but Jagr does remind you of Mario in a lot of ways," says Penguin wing Kevin Stevens, who is sidelined with a fractured left ankle. "He's got the same kind of presence on the ice."

"When you're sitting on the bench, it's just like it was with Mario," says Cullen. "You watch. You can't help. You know Yaggs can get the puck and just take over the game. You don't want to miss it."

Jagr might be, among other things, the best one-armed player in the game today. The trend in the NHL toward more clutching and grabbing may slow down some slick-skating Europeans, but not Jagr, who is 6'2" and 208 pounds. He actually seems to enjoy the challenge of handling the puck while carrying a couple of passengers. "He should practice with a 100-pound dummy strapped to his back," says Penguin center Shawn McEachern, "because that's the way he has to play in the games."

Johnston has increased Jagr's ice time this season by putting him on the first power-play unit and allowing him to kill penalties. According to the coach, people are missing something when they attribute all of Jagr's success to his size and natural abilities. There is a pretty good mind under all that hair, says Johnston.

"He knows the game better than anyone on the team," says the coach. "He's very smart out there. He knows the little things, things you can't teach. He knows how to play the angles and how to protect the puck. You know where he got that, don't you?"

From his brilliant coaches on the Penguins?

"From Mario."
Michael Farber, SI, 1996:
Quote:
Of course the NHL could invent other categories for Jagr, besides best-tressed. Best one-on-one player: Jagr. There are faster forwards who might embarrass a defenseman with their speed, but no one plays one-on-one in traffic the way he does. Best combination of skill and strength: Jagr again. The 6'2", 215-pound Czech is the first man to combine the traditional European attributes of slickness, nimble feet and goal scorer's hands with lower-body strength, allowing him to fend off checks and protect the puck. "He's a gorilla, strong as a horse," Penguins coach Ed Johnston says, offering his own vision of Jagr as a crossbreed. "I don't know anybody who's stronger on his skates."

Michael Farber, SI, 1999:
Quote:
Last month Chicago Blackhawks assistant coach Denis Savard proclaimed Jagr "the best player in the game by a million miles," as if the subject were as closed as a team meeting.

...

"Jaromir should get a cut of every contract of everyone who plays with him before signing a new deal because half the money they're getting is due to him," Constantine says, despite his occasional differences with his star. "He makes it tricky for this organization. We have to ask ourselves how good the guy is. Is he good because he plays with Jagr? Not taking anything anyway from Marty Straka, who's a helluva player, but none of the guys Jaromir plays with have a time-tested history of being major talents." There is no one riding shotgun for Jagr the way Joe Sakic does for Forsberg, John LeClair does for Lindros or Selanne does for Kariya. Pittsburgh has several forwards with a clue, but it also has more extras than there were in Titanic.

...

"There are probably four ways to play Jagr, all of them wrong," Montreal assistant coach Dave King says. "He's the toughest player in hockey to devise a game plan against."

Michael Farber, SI, 2000:

Quote:
With 32 goals and 39 assists in 39 games through Sunday, Jagr was close to a 150-point pace and was leading the league in both categories, something not achieved outright since Wayne Gretzky did it 13 years ago. Night after night Jagr finds not only open ice but also the inherent joy of his sport. He dances and dazzles, getting seven points against the hapless New York Islanders in one game, derailing the powerful Detroit Red Wings with a goal and an assist in the next, and, in the match after that, twisting New Jersey Devils checker Claude Lemieux into a pretzel by putting the puck through Lemieux's legs at the Penguins' blue line and creating a three-on-two. Jagr, with sturdy haunches that make him all but impossible to bump off the puck, puts on That '80s Show for almost 82 games a season. He's setting hockey back more than 10 years.

"The game in the 1980s was played with the puck," Toronto Maple Leafs goalie Glenn Healy says. "In the '90s it became a game of often willingly losing possession, of dumping the puck in and moving the battle to other areas, such as behind the net and in the corners. Jagr is an '80s player because he holds on to the puck and tries to make plays. He won't give it up until there is absolutely no other play, which isn't often, because he has the ability to make something out of nothing, even a one-on-three. As a goalie you're always aware of Jagr's presence on the ice."

Jagr's scoring rampage in an era of constipated hockey has ended debate about who is the NHL's best player. "With no disrespect to the other guys," says New Jersey defenseman Ken Daneyko, a 15-year veteran, "you've got [Eric] Lindros, [Paul] Kariya, [Teemu] Selanne and [Peter] Forsberg here, and Jagr head and shoulders above them, up there." That assessment was implicitly endorsed by Gretzky last April when he blessed Jagr with a private word during the Great One's retirement ceremony. "Maybe that's why I play good right now," Jagr said last week, his face crinkling in merriment as he sat at his locker. "I don't want to make Wayne a liar."

Kostya Kennedy, SI, 2000:
Quote:
When SI asked NHL coaches in September, "Who is the best all-around player in the world?" 19 of the 26 respondents named Penguins right wing Jaromir Jagr. The other seven coaches fell into one of those hard-to-figure minorities, like the one dentist in five who does not recommend sugarless gum for his patients who chew gum.

Michael Farber, SI, 2006:
Quote:
You can rhapsodize about the casual excellence of the Detroit Red Wings or the explosiveness of the Ottawa Senators, but the ideal jumping-off point for the 2006 NHL playoffs, and there is just no getting around it, figuratively and often literally, is Jaromir Jagr's booty. His derriere is large enough to cause a lunar eclipse, J. Lo-esque in its amplitude and wondrously utilitarian. When he is parked at the right half boards on the power play, Jagr can turn his formidable backside--"You can hang a license plate off it," New York Rangers coach Tom Renney marvels--and protect the puck for five, 15 or however many seconds he chooses until he spots a vacant passing lane or identifies a moment when he can easily wheel to the net. His rhythm. His whim. The game and, to some extent, the playoffs proceed at the discretion of a 6'3", 245-pound right wing with impossibly thick haunches, a player who is the NHL's top scorer since 1990 and whom New Jersey Devils goaltender Martin Brodeur calls the best he has ever faced.



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04-13-2013, 02:18 PM
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My point still stands, a prime Jagr would have not allowed Sedin to beat him for the Art Ross.
Prime, or Peak? Prime Jagr lost in 2005-06 to peak Thornton, scoring was higher that year. Or perhaps it was that concussion Jagr was supposed to have played with, in that case he was prime Jagr some other time and lost. I think it's hard to claim Crosby was peak in 2009-10, considering his 120 point season as a 19-year old. Instead he was reinventing himself that season, probably partly becouse a player must evolve or end up like Ovechkin. He needed to score more and he as the student he is made it so. Obviously not as good as Ovechkin at that time or the years before. Prime Crosby is yet to be seen for a full season, but as i said in an earlier reply Crosby has started slow both in 2010-11 and 2013, dont think it was the case in 2011-12 though but could be wrong. He had his downs and then exploded, more so in 2010-11 obviously with the many goals and i think a twice as long "slump"(1.0 PPG) at the start. He has'nt been "lucky" to perform at his best all the time for the last three seasons. Peak Crosby wont loose no Art Ross to peak Henrik Sedin, or anyone else for that matter.(Not counting former players, against Jagr perhaps they would switch possession of it a little bit. I dont know exactly how good Crosby can be so it's hard to say.)


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04-13-2013, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
My point there about the obstruction was how the removal of it would have had a greater effect on Kariya and Selanne than it would have on Jagr.
It wasn't a knock on Jagr, it just would have been more beneficial to Kariya and Selanne.
Jagr's production was going to be high regardless. Kariya's and Selanne's not so much.
Jagr had strength and size and skill only comparable really to Mario. The DPE was a time when he could excel and other skilled player's were more limited because they were not nearly as big or strong.

Jagr is a good and strong skater, but he was never as fast as Kovalchuk as OP said, nor did he have the pure puck skills of Datsyuk. He did have size and strength and puck skills. He could make plays... like only Mario could (that I could think of) with guys draped on him, holding him.

As to the playoffs. I have no doubt Jagr is a driven guy and he raises his game in the playoffs. He competes hardest at the biggest moments. He is not Doug Gilmour or Wayne Gretzky, but his playoff performance is very, very good. The Bruins made a shrewd move in getting him.

His incredibly peak and now his incredible longevity at a high level puts him right up there with some of the best ever. Ever game his resume gets better. He is certainly not compiling at this point in his career. He could play several more years. He is a much better version of Marc Recchi now. I hope he plays till he is 45!

I loved a quote from a Bruins fan: "He is clearly in much better shape then Lucic or Horton are!"

I get to see him on Monday vs my Sens. I want the Sens to win... but I will enjoy watching Jagr again, hopefully not for the last time.

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04-13-2013, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Prime, or Peak? Prime Jagr lost in 2005-06 to peak Thornton, scoring was higher that year. Or perhaps it was that concussion Jagr was supposed to have played with, in that case he was prime Jagr some other time and lost. I think it's hard to claim Crosby was peak in 2009-10, considering his 120 point season as a 19-year old. Instead he was reinventing himself that season, probably partly becouse a player must evolve or end up like Ovechkin. He needed to score more and he as the student he is made it so. Obviously not as good as Ovechkin at that time or the years before. Prime Crosby is yet to be seen for a full season, but as i said in an earlier reply Crosby has started slow both in 2010-11 and 2013, dont think it was the case in 2011-12 though but could be wrong. He had his downs and then exploded, more so in 2010-11 obviously with the many goals and i think a twice as long "slump"(1.0 PPG) at the start. He has'nt been "lucky" to perform at his best all the time for the last three seasons. Peak Crosby wont loose no Art Ross to peak Henrik Sedin, or anyone else for that matter.(Not counting former players, against Jagr perhaps they would switch possession of it a little bit. I dont know exactly how good Crosby can be so it's hard to say.)
2005-06 was neither his peak or prime, he was 34.

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04-13-2013, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
How many games did Daniel Sedin play that season? He played less games than Malkin did.
Daniel was Henrik line mate not just another guy on the team or PP. Daniel played in 6 less games than Malkin did.

Quote:
As for the whole linemates argument that you always seem to bring up, Jagr won 2 Art Ross trophies playing with a combination of Kip Miller, Hrdina and Beranek as linemates. Great players can put up big numbers regardless of their linemates.

My point still stands, a prime Jagr would have not allowed Sedin to beat him for the Art Ross.
Would a 22 year old Jagr?

How a 22 year old one without Francis? Highly doubt it.

It's great that Jagr was able to dominate later in his career with lesser players, you know after he was able to fully develop with a HHOF center in his prime helping him out.

The whole linemates thing on a scale of 1-100 would be around 70-80ish for me with 50 being neutral impact. You seem to be really close to 50 if not below it here, especially when looking at Sid.

Jagr was a great player and sometimes don't get his due, partly his fault to indifferent play at times to be sure, but he had some great luck and good fortune in his career as well.

He was the best talent in the 90 draft, one can only wonder how his career might have turned out differently if he had been picked by the Nords, Canucks, Red Wings or Flyers?

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