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2013 Leafs Trades/Proposals/Signings XIV - UFA talk now

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Old
05-12-2013, 02:40 PM
  #751
charliolemieux
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Originally Posted by darrylsittler27 View Post
I was in a bar last night and overheard Healy and Hughson.Hughson was crying that Gillis was in huge trouble with the Sedin's aging and being useless when it counts.Gillis had offered Nonnis Luongo and his first rounder(2013) for Grabo,Komi.

Nonnis said he wanted 2 firsts because Vancouver will suck next year.


Make him pay Dave.

I don't think Nonis and Gillis are very friendly. Didn't they have some rough contract negotiations when Nonis was GM and Gillis an Agent?

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05-12-2013, 02:43 PM
  #752
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Originally Posted by darrylsittler27 View Post
I was in a bar last night and overheard Healy and Hughson.Hughson was crying that Gillis was in huge trouble with the Sedin's aging and being useless when it counts.Gillis had offered Nonnis Luongo and his first rounder(2013) for Grabo,Komi.

Nonnis said he wanted 2 firsts because Vancouver will suck next year.
I cant tell if the second part is true but I would be veryyy happy with the first part. Getting another mid-late first in this draft would be epic! And we can sign a grabbo replacement in weiss

edit: looking at the main trade luongo forum and I havent seen this rumor anywhere. What time was it?

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05-12-2013, 03:02 PM
  #753
Ricky Bobby
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Like all the other number 1 centers that have been available over the years? its not unfair to say Bozak is not a number 1 center, but he has done a great job in the role he was placed in. Bozak is a much better player than many give him credit for, he has chemistry with his team mates, and hasnt hurt the team. To not sign him with the assumption that a top center will be available is extremely short sighted.
Matt Stajan and Dominic Moore also had chemistry with their linemates. So did Ville Leino. Bozak is a tweener and I don't buy the great chemistry with Kessel argument. Kessel is simply a darn good player who boosts Bozaks number. When your competition to center Kessel has been the likes of Connolly, Steckel and Grabo (who has some of the weirdest hockey sense in the league) you could say he won the job by default.

When Lupul came to town Kessel instantly shot up from around around a .75-.80 per game player to a PPG. Now that is chemistry.

Bozak is a versatile tweener center and should get paid Chris Kelly, Matt Cullen type money. If he wants more with term we should let him walk instead of locking him up to a contract that will hinder us for years.

Absolute worse case situation for next year we sign a 3rd line center like Zubrus to a 1 or 2 year deal and put Grabo back into the 2nd line spot.

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05-12-2013, 03:11 PM
  #754
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
Like all the other number 1 centers that have been available over the years? its not unfair to say Bozak is not a number 1 center, but he has done a great job in the role he was placed in. Bozak is a much better player than many give him credit for, he has chemistry with his team mates, and hasnt hurt the team. To not sign him with the assumption that a top center will be available is extremely short sighted.
Tweener centers are not players you handcuff your cap space to for years.

I'm confident another Bozak can be found without to much difficulty over the next few years. Even if we don't get the # 1 center maybe it's another top Dman we can use that money for or another top winger.

I don't believe in overpaying middle of the lineup players like Bozak and if you look at the way the Pens, Hawks, Wings, Sharks have been operating they don't either and with good reason. Pay your top players their big money then look for deals on the next group.

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05-12-2013, 05:58 PM
  #755
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Tweener centers are not players you handcuff your cap space to for years.

I'm confident another Bozak can be found without to much difficulty over the next few years. Even if we don't get the # 1 center maybe it's another top Dman we can use that money for or another top winger.

I don't believe in overpaying middle of the lineup players like Bozak and if you look at the way the Pens, Hawks, Wings, Sharks have been operating they don't either and with good reason. Pay your top players their big money then look for deals on the next group.
From an excellent post by 416leafer in April:

"This year, Bozak has had the primary assist on 4 out of Kessels 15 goals.
Last season.. 8 out of 37.

When Kessel played with Savard? 20 out of 36 were primary assists by Savard..

Sure, there may not be any good options for us to find as an upgrade over Bozak in the next year or so, but eventually we will need to find an upgrade.

But there's really no evidence at all that Kessel and Bozak have good chemistry... Its essentially Kessel puts up big numbers despite Bozak, not because of Bozak..."

I would add Boz was 88th amongst centers in shots on goal in spite of being 9th in icetime. He doesn't like to shoot near enough, so no rebounds or deflections. His lack of assists shows how little he is actually dishing to Kessel, and his lack of goals shows how seldom he is converting passes. He's a spectator to the scoring exploits of his wingers and not really a contributor. He is out of place on a top line and Kessel and JVR would obviously be more productive with a more prolific center. I can't see how anyone could argue that point. They would almost certainly produce as well with McClement on the top three.

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05-12-2013, 06:14 PM
  #756
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Originally Posted by nuck View Post
From an excellent post by 416leafer in April:

"This year, Bozak has had the primary assist on 4 out of Kessels 15 goals.
Last season.. 8 out of 37.

When Kessel played with Savard? 20 out of 36 were primary assists by Savard..

Sure, there may not be any good options for us to find as an upgrade over Bozak in the next year or so, but eventually we will need to find an upgrade.

But there's really no evidence at all that Kessel and Bozak have good chemistry... Its essentially Kessel puts up big numbers despite Bozak, not because of Bozak..."

I would add Boz was 88th amongst centers in shots on goal in spite of being 9th in icetime. He doesn't like to shoot near enough, so no rebounds or deflections. His lack of assists shows how little he is actually dishing to Kessel, and his lack of goals shows how seldom he is converting passes. He's a spectator to the scoring exploits of his wingers and not really a contributor. He is out of place on a top line and Kessel and JVR would obviously be more productive with a more prolific center. I can't see how anyone could argue that point. They would almost certainly produce as well with McClement on the top three.
Great post, and I would think that this is common knowledge to most of us. I think Tim Connolly would have also put up a pro-rated 45 pts between Kessel and JVR this year, although we might have suffered defensively for it. The only thing Bozak has for him is a strong breakout pass to Kessel down the wing.

I can't wait to see what Nonis does.

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05-12-2013, 07:09 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
Matt Stajan and Dominic Moore also had chemistry with their linemates. So did Ville Leino. Bozak is a tweener and I don't buy the great chemistry with Kessel argument. Kessel is simply a darn good player who boosts Bozaks number. When your competition to center Kessel has been the likes of Connolly, Steckel and Grabo (who has some of the weirdest hockey sense in the league) you could say he won the job by default.

When Lupul came to town Kessel instantly shot up from around around a .75-.80 per game player to a PPG. Now that is chemistry.

Bozak is a versatile tweener center and should get paid Chris Kelly, Matt Cullen type money. If he wants more with term we should let him walk instead of locking him up to a contract that will hinder us for years.

Absolute worse case situation for next year we sign a 3rd line center like Zubrus to a 1 or 2 year deal and put Grabo back into the 2nd line spot.
Then according to you, Bozak has had nothing to do with the success of Phil Kessel? Based on that theory, if Kessel had a more talented number 1 center, it should be expected Kesssel leads the NHL every year in scoring? As much as it pains many, Bozak has had a hand in what Phil has done so far, even though he isnt the shiny new top center so many feel the Leafs need.

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05-12-2013, 09:34 PM
  #758
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
Then according to you, Bozak has had nothing to do with the success of Phil Kessel? Based on that theory, if Kessel had a more talented number 1 center, it should be expected Kesssel leads the NHL every year in scoring? As much as it pains many, Bozak has had a hand in what Phil has done so far, even though he isnt the shiny new top center so many feel the Leafs need.
Is it really that much of a stretch to think that with a legit #1C Kessel's production will rise from it's already-exceptional state? I hardly think so ().

Bozak's 'hand' is there by default... that like, pretty obvious, ya?

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05-12-2013, 09:48 PM
  #759
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Originally Posted by dubplatepressure View Post
Is it really that much of a stretch to think that with a legit #1C Kessel's production will rise from it's already-exceptional state? I hardly think so ().

Bozak's 'hand' is there by default... that like, pretty obvious, ya?
I think the one thing with Kessel is he doesn't really need a playmaking center to create scoring opportunities for him. Most of his goals he creates by himself, and he likes to hold onto the puck rather than having someone else feed it to him. I guess it makes some sense since he played a lot of center growing up.

I think what Kessel needs (cause he's such a good passer for a winger), is a center who is not just a pure passer but who can also be a scoring threat. This would create more space for him, and I think that in itself would result in more goals, and with a more competent offensive threat down the middle his assist numbers would likely sky rocket.

When I think of who would be the perfect center for Kessel, for some reason I keep thinking Mats Sundin. They could have been a match made in Leafs heaven if only their career arcs met. lol

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05-12-2013, 10:00 PM
  #760
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
Then according to you, Bozak has had nothing to do with the success of Phil Kessel? Based on that theory, if Kessel had a more talented number 1 center, it should be expected Kesssel leads the NHL every year in scoring? As much as it pains many, Bozak has had a hand in what Phil has done so far, even though he isnt the shiny new top center so many feel the Leafs need.
Yes, Kessel would win the Art Ross for the next decade. That Crosby fella wouldn't stand a chance.

Bozak has performed well but make no mistake that Bozak is a tweener just like Stajan and Moore were who posted similar numbers given similar type of minutes and they didn't played with someone nearly as good as Kessel. Bozak is a useful player but not the guy you dedicate a lot of cap space to over multiple years.

Bozak is a # 6-8 forward on the depth chart and with that comes a paycheque no higher then the 3 million range not a 4+ million contract.

Overpaying Bozak for multiple years would be worse then losing him for nothing as a UFA.

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05-12-2013, 10:25 PM
  #761
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Originally Posted by dubplatepressure View Post
Is it really that much of a stretch to think that with a legit #1C Kessel's production will rise from it's already-exceptional state? I hardly think so ().

Bozak's 'hand' is there by default... that like, pretty obvious, ya?
So the issue is scoring, and needing Kessel to produce more? I guess thats what the Leafs need in order to win?

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05-12-2013, 10:37 PM
  #762
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I'm hoping Brad Richards gets bought out by the Rangers. I think he can bounce back, and playing between a Kessel and a JVR would be unreal.

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05-12-2013, 10:42 PM
  #763
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Yes, Kessel would win the Art Ross for the next decade. That Crosby fella wouldn't stand a chance.

Bozak has performed well but make no mistake that Bozak is a tweener just like Stajan and Moore were who posted similar numbers given similar type of minutes and they didn't played with someone nearly as good as Kessel. Bozak is a useful player but not the guy you dedicate a lot of cap space to over multiple years.

Bozak is a # 6-8 forward on the depth chart and with that comes a paycheque no higher then the 3 million range not a 4+ million contract.

Overpaying Bozak for multiple years would be worse then losing him for nothing as a UFA.
Letting your number 1 center walk away without a replacement would be completely moronic. You have yet to explain how a better center would make the team better and how he could be aquired. Again, this is a clear grass is always greener scenario. Bozak has been great thus far, and until the Leafs find a true number 1. he is doing great. He plays excellent two way hockey, and his linemates have produced very well. Yet that doesnt seem to be enough though.

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05-12-2013, 10:48 PM
  #764
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I think Bozak lost about 1M on his next contract tonight.

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05-12-2013, 10:59 PM
  #765
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I think Bozak lost about 1M on his next contract tonight.
I thought that too after the win. It would be nice to have him but we don't neccesarily NEED him.

I've been an advocate of signing Stephen Weiss for some time. He's superior to Bozak in every other facet (offense/defense), and he has a 56.2 faceoff percentage over the last 4 seasons (including playoffs).

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05-13-2013, 05:22 AM
  #766
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All this talk about having "too many puck movers" is really making my brain hurt.

As we've seen time and time again, shutdown defensemen are a dying breed in today's NHL. It's the Karlssons and Gardiners that thrive (note that Gardiner has clearly been our best defenseman in this series). The Frasers, Holzers and O'Byrnes are one-dimensional pylons. They've been our worst defensemen.
Did you watch tonight playoff game? O'Byrne was nasty out there. Hitting anything that moved. When Boston dumped the puck into his corner, they knew they were in for a battle. He played sick tonight. I am not acting like he is some superstar, but u need those type of players to win.

Gardiner has been our best defenceman, but he hasnt been playing up for long, and his legs are fresh, plus he is amazing skater anyways. But come on, comparing Karlsson to almost anyone is unfair to the other player. How many Karlsson's are in the league? How many close to his raw skill? 4, maybe 5? So what about the rest of the defenceman in this league? Are they all Karlsson's?

The Leafs had had lots of puckmovers for years, and they had been one of the worst defensive teams in the league.

You add a Fraser or O'Byrne to the mix and it adds a different dimension to the team. Those type of players ALLOW the Gardiner's and Karlsson's in the league to do their thing or else what happens when the Gardiner's and Karlsson's get got pinching? No one is there to back them up and our goalie gets hung out to dry, like what happened to Reimer last year, and everyone thinks the goalie is the problem. Yea it is fun for the fans to watch, cuz of increased scoring opprotunities, but the goalies and the coachs HATE IT!

Bottom line, you need to have a healthy balance of puckmovers and shutdowns, or else u are gonna be in trouble, especially in the playoffs..

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05-13-2013, 05:33 AM
  #767
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We can't have Gardiner, Gunnarson and Reilly on our blue line - it's just too soft IMO.


I think we'd be foolish to use our 1st + Franson for a #2 defenseman. Franson may very well be that #2 defenseman - we don't know yet because Carly hasn't been able to play them together.

But yes, completely agree that we should be trying everything possible to move up into the top-7 and draft one of MacKinnon, Barkov, Monahan or Lindholm. Each of those players is supposed to be what you'd call 'franchise' centres, with MacKinnon and Barkov expected to produce next year, and Monahan and Lindholm on the fence for playing in the show or needing 1 more year.
Trust me, I love Franson's game more than most, especially when everyone was hating on him, calling him a 6th defenceman. But there is no way he is a #2 defenceman on the Leafs while Phaneuf, Gardiner and Rielly are on this team. He could be a #2 defenceman on another team that doesn't have 3 elite puckmovers (well Phaneuf isn't an elite puckmover, but brings intangibles and is our #1 defenceman)

If Phaneuf stoped pinching and thinking he was Jake GArdiner, then a Franson/Phaneuf MIGHT work, but we all know that will never happen.

You have to capitalize on your players that have a high value, and on our team, it's Gardiner/Franson/Rielly. You can have all 3 on the team, but then Phaneuf would have to go, and I seriously doubt that happens.

You can't have a defence with

Phaneuf
Gardiner
Franson
Rielly
Liles

We would get murdered defensively. We might get more scoring chances, but the other teams would get alot better ones. All they would have to do is dump and chase and pound us into the ground which would be easy with those 5 guys on our backend.

If u want to improve ur team, u have to give to get, and those 3 are the ones with the highest value that teams will WANT to give something back of quality. You want a good young number 1 center, well u ain't gonna get it by trading away Grabovski or Kulemin.

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05-13-2013, 06:01 AM
  #768
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Let Bozak walk

Amnesty Komi this year, Liles the next

Bring Colborne up for 3/4 C duties with McClement

Gardiner/Franson solidify our top 4

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05-13-2013, 06:31 AM
  #769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuck View Post
From an excellent post by 416leafer in April:

"This year, Bozak has had the primary assist on 4 out of Kessels 15 goals.
Last season.. 8 out of 37.

When Kessel played with Savard? 20 out of 36 were primary assists by Savard..

Sure, there may not be any good options for us to find as an upgrade over Bozak in the next year or so, but eventually we will need to find an upgrade.

But there's really no evidence at all that Kessel and Bozak have good chemistry... Its essentially Kessel puts up big numbers despite Bozak, not because of Bozak..."

I would add Boz was 88th amongst centers in shots on goal in spite of being 9th in icetime. He doesn't like to shoot near enough, so no rebounds or deflections. His lack of assists shows how little he is actually dishing to Kessel, and his lack of goals shows how seldom he is converting passes. He's a spectator to the scoring exploits of his wingers and not really a contributor. He is out of place on a top line and Kessel and JVR would obviously be more productive with a more prolific center. I can't see how anyone could argue that point. They would almost certainly produce as well with McClement on the top three.
I feel so honoured to be quoted months later!

The facts speak for themselves, Bozak and Kessel do NOT have good chemistry. Look at the (lack of) primary assists Bozak produces despite his ice-time and linemates. Consider his career high/career average point totals, and then consider career high (and career average) point totals for guys like Kelly, Stoll, Bolland, etc while playing almost exclusively in shutdown roles with limited PP minutes... What would Bozaks point totals be if he was playing in a similar role? What would those players point totals be if they played on a top line with Kessel getting lots of PP time? These guys get between 3-3.5M.

Im not against Bozak. I think he could be a solid 3rd line C for us. He's playing in the top 6 by default, and he hasnt even put up particularly good point totals. Pretty similar to Moores last season here, he got top 6 minutes, and had career highs, what a surprise. Stajan put up better numbers in his last two seasons here, 55 and 57 points respectively in his final two Leafs seasons (no Kessel or Sundin in that 55 point season mind you). So if evereyone he slags Stajan, calls him garbage, and wouldnt want to have him signed longterm for 4.5M+, then why the heck would you want Bozak on that type of deal?

Players should not get paid top line dollars just because theyre playing those minutes by default. Otherwise we should have signed Moore to a longterm 4M+ deal after he put up 41 pts in 63 games for us, except management made the right decision, realized he was putting up career highs due to his icetime and PP opportunities. Same logic should be applied to Bozak.

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05-13-2013, 06:35 AM
  #770
dubplatepressure
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
So the issue is scoring, and needing Kessel to produce more? I guess thats what the Leafs need in order to win?
Is that what my post said? Funny, I didn't remember writing that anywhere.

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05-13-2013, 07:33 AM
  #771
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Letting your number 1 center walk away without a replacement would be completely moronic. You have yet to explain how a better center would make the team better and how he could be aquired. Again, this is a clear grass is always greener scenario. Bozak has been great thus far, and until the Leafs find a true number 1. he is doing great. He plays excellent two way hockey, and his linemates have produced very well. Yet that doesnt seem to be enough though.
Just because a player has value to your team doesn't mean you just let that player fill in a blank cheque cause they're a free agent.

If Bozak gets 4+ million from us we'll have another Grabo type situation.

We found Bozak as a UFA free agent, we found Grabo for a 2nd rounder who just needed an opportunity, we found Dominic Moore as a waiver pick up, we found Matt Stajan as a 2nd round pick. I'm confident Nonis can fill Bozaks minutes.

Just cause Bozak plays on the 1st doesn't mean he's a # 1 center. I actually think Kadri has surpasssed him for that title (or will very soon). Grabo has also been miscast as a # 3 center because he should be playing in the top 2 lines. If we're talking about just filling Bozaks spot we don't even need a true # 1. Just a # 3 or a tweener would suffice in the short term.

Brassard, Turris, Carter, Richards, Staal, Roy, Ott, Ribiero, Vermette, Fisher have all moved teams recently.

Roy, Ribeiro, Weiss are UFAs as well as stop gaps in Zubrus, McDonald and probably Briere.

Next season Malkin, Thornton, Datsyuk, Stastny, Sedin, Bergeron, Pavelski, Stajan, Bolland, Ott are due to be free agents.

Colborne should be ready for 3rd line # of minutes next year (and on a very cheap contract).


Last edited by Ricky Bobby: 05-13-2013 at 07:39 AM.
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05-13-2013, 07:39 AM
  #772
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Turn on the radio this morning, and the very first call in I hear

"Now that Grabovski is playing so well, its time to maybe package him with MacArthur and get a 1st line centre"

Such fail


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05-13-2013, 08:10 AM
  #773
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If Gardiner/Franson continue to impress.

Gunnarsson - Phaneuf
Gardiner - Franson
Liles - O'Byrne

is fine with me, with giving Blacker, Percy and Rielly some minutes to prove them selves.

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05-13-2013, 08:15 AM
  #774
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If Gardiner/Franson continue to impress.

Gunnarsson - Phaneuf
Gardiner - Franson
Liles - O'Byrne

is fine with me, with giving Blacker, Percy and Rielly some minutes to prove them selves.
Gardiner and Franson are a brilliant pairing.

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05-13-2013, 08:20 AM
  #775
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as much as I haven been impressed with Franson and Gards I've been thinking Gunnarson has not looked strong at all

maybe he's still hurt but if the Leafs want to add a top pairing guy to go with Phanuef then IMO Gunnar is the one to go

have Liles and O'Bryne as your bottom pair and let Rielly force one out

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