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Savard and Nieds, a detailed comaprisson

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04-13-2013, 02:38 PM
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Hardyvan123
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Savard and Nieds, a detailed comaprisson

Here are the voting records for both Serge Savard and Nieds

Savard All-star teams

69-70

Bobby Orr 180
Brad Park 134
Carl Brewer 58
Jacques Laperriere 57
Al Arbour 39
Jim Neilson 30
Pat Stapleton 28
Keith Magnuson 23
Barclay Plager 20
Doug Mohns 12
Doug Jarrett 9
12 Serge Savard 9
Garry Bergman 9

72-73
Bobby Orr 236
Guy LaPointe 125
Brad Park 118
Bill White 112
Jacques Laperriere 97
6 Serge Savard 41
Rod Seiling 28
Gary Bergman 24
Dallas Smith 19
Terry Harper 15

73-74
Bobby Orr 240
Brad Park 196
Bill White 145
Barry Ashbee 50
Guy Lapointe 42
Carol Vadnais 41
Borje Salming 32
Dave Burrows 22
Denis Potvin 21
Dick Redmond 15
Ed Van Impe 11
Phil Russel 7
Noel Price 4
Jim McKenney 4
Jacques Laperriere 4
Barclay Plager 4
Terry Harper 4
Andre Moose Dupont 4
Gilles Marotte 3
Don Awrey 3
Dallas Smith 3
22 Serge Savard 1
Ian Turnbull 1
Jocelyn Guevremont 1
Tom Bladon 1
Randy Monery 1
Jim Neilson 1
Larry Robinson 1
Mike Pelyk 1
Ab DeMacro 1

74-75
Bobby Orr 270
Denis Potvin 202
Guy LaPointe 166
Borje Salming 76
Brad Park 38
6 Serge Savard 32
Bill White 25
Carol Vadnais 25
Terry Harper 21
Jerry Korab 19

75-76
Denis Potvin 255
Brad Park 183
Guy Lapointe 131
Borje Salming 123
5 Serge Savard 85
Jim Watson 66
Dave Burrows 20
Larry Robinson 13
Carol Vadnais 11
Andre Dupont 10
Jean Potvin 10

76-77
Larry Robinson 254
Borje Salming 217
Denis Potvin 144
Guy LaPointe 133
5 Serge Savard 87
Brad Park 75
Ian Turnbull 22
Gary Sargent 10
Jim Schoenfeld 7
Jim Watson 5
Joe Watson 4

77-78
Denis Potvin 226
Brad Park 201
Larry Robinson 200
Borje Salming 166
Serge Savard 64
Barry Beck 37
Guy LaPointe 26
Jim Schoenfeld 12
Jim Watson 9
Bob Dailey 8
Reed Larson 8
Gary Sargent 4
Phil Russell 2

78-79
Denis Potvin, NYI 249
Larry Robinson, Mtl 196
Borje Salming, Tor 157
Serge Savard, Mtl 111
Barry Beck, Col 39
Guy Lapointe, Mtl 36
Robert Picard, Wsh 35
Brad Park, Bos 15
Stefan Persson, NYI 13
Reed Larson, Det 11
Jim Schoenfeld, Buf 9
Randy Carlyle 8



Norris

72-73
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 224
2. Guy Lapointe, Mtl 58
T3. Bill White, Chi 36
T3. Brad Park, NYR 36
5. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 25
6. Serge Savard, Mtl 22
7. Rod Seiling, NYR 11
8. Dave Burrows, Pit 6
T9. Tim Horton, Buf 4
T9. Terry Harper, LA 4

73-74
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 236
2. Brad Park, NYR 98
3. Bill White, Chi 44
4. Barry Ashbee, Phi 11
5. Borje Salming, Tor 10
6. Guy Lapointe, Mtl 8
7. Denis Potvin, NYI 6
8. Dave Burrows, Pit 4
T9. Ed Van Impe, Phi 3
T9. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 3
T9. Keith Magnuson, Chi 3
T12. Serge Savard, Mtl 1
T12. Jocelyn Guevremont, Van 1
T12. Barclay Plager, StL 1
T12. Larry Robinson, Mtl 1
T12. Terry Harper, LA 1
T12. Phil Russell, Chi 1

74-75
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 266
2. Denis Potvin, NYI 99
3. Guy Lapointe, Mtl 45
4. Borje Salming, Tor 31
5. Serge Savard, Mtl 14
T6. Don Awrey, Stl-Mtl 6
T6. Jerry Korab, Buf 6
8. Brad Park, NYR 5
9. Terry Harper, LA 4
10. Jim Schoenfeld, Buf 3

75-76
1. Denis Potvin, NYI 237
2. Brad Park, NYR/Bos 96
3. Borje Salming, Tor 56
4. Guy Lapointe, Mtl 39
5. Serge Savard, Mtl 23
6. Jimmy Watson, Phi 13
7. Dave Burrows, Pit 8
8. Jean Potvin, NYI 5
T9. Terry Harper, Det 3
T9. Andre Dupont, Phi 3

76-77 partial results (462/486)
1. Larry Robinson, Mtl 186
2. Borje Salming, Tor 157
3. Denis Potvin, NYI 58
4. Guy Lapointe, Mtl 32
5. Serge Savard, Mtl 29

77-78
1. Denis Potvin, NYI 155
2. Brad Park, Bos 135
3. Larry Robinson, Mtl 85
4. Borje Salming, Tor 84
5. Guy Lapointe, Mtl 8
6. Barry Beck, Col 6
7. Jim Schoenfeld, Buf 5
8. Serge Savard, Mtl 4
9. Gary Sargent, LA 3
10. Bob Dailey, Phi 1

78-79
Denis Potvin, NYI 228
Larry Robinson, Mtl 83
Borje Salming, Tor 65
4 Serge Savard, Mtl 41[/B]
Guy Lapointe, Mtl 12
Robert Picard, Wsh 9
Barry Beck, Col 7
Brad Park, Bos 6
Ron Stackhouse, Pit 5
Phil Russell, Chi/Atl 1
Reed Larson, Det 1

Hart

78-79
Bryan Trottier, NYI C 201
Guy Lafleur, Mtl RW 84
Marcel Dionne, LA C 47
Denis Potvin, NYI D 46
Mike Palmateer, Tor G 18
6 Serge Savard, Mtl D 13
Dennis Herron, Pit G 7
Borje Salming, Tor D 7
Mike Bossy, NYI RW 7
Don Edwards, Buf G 6

So here are Savard's totals

Hart 6th
Norris 4,5,5,5,6,8,12th
AllStar 4,5,5,5,6,6,12,22

On to Nieds

AllStar
97-98
Nicklas Lidstrom 237 (40-12-1)
Rob Blake 221 (39-8-2)
Chris Pronger 158 (19-20-3)
4 Scott Niedermayer 74 (1-19-12)
Scott Stevens 52 (4-9-5)
Ray Bourque 40 (0-7-19)
Larry Murphy 33 (1-5-13)
Sergei Zubov 33 (0-8-9)
Al MacInnis 28 (1-5-8)
Teppo Numminen 27 (1-4-10)
Steve Duchesne 11 (0-1-8)
Chris Chelios 10 (0-3-1)

98-99
Al MacInnis 280 (56-0-0)
Nicklas Lidstrom 154 (18-19-7)
Ray Bourque 107 (10-13-18)
Eric Desjardins 81 (6-13-12)
Chris Pronger 70 (6-9-13)
Larry Murphy 50 (3-9-8)
Scott Stevens 46 (5-5-6)
Brian Leetch 42 (2-9-5)
Fredrik Olausson 42 (2-6-14)
Phil Housley 41 (1-9-9)
Derian Hatcher 30 (2-6-2)
12 Scott Niedermayer 27 (1-7-1)
Sergei Zubov 8 (0-1-5)
Adam Foote 7 (0-2-1)
Aleksander Karpovtsev 7 (0-2-1)

99-00
Chris Pronger 285 (57-0-0)
Nicklas Lidstrom 272 (52-4-0)
Rob Blake 145 (3-40-10)
Eric Desjardins 86 (1-21-18)
Sergei Gonchar 73 (0-16-25)
Ray Bourque 38 (1-7-12)
Chris Chelios 36 (0-9-9)
Al MacInnis 32 (0-8-8)
Scott Stevens 15 (0-2-9)
Sandis Ozolinsh 11 (0-2-5)
Sergei Zubov 10 (0-3-1)
Robert Svehla 5 (0-0-5)
13 Scott Niedermayer 3 (0-1-0)
Eric Weinrich3 (0-1-0)
Teppo Numminen 3 (0-0-3)

00-01
Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 282 (53-5-2)
Ray Bourque, COL 169 (18-23-10)
Rob Blake, L.A.-COL 151 (15-22-10)
Scott Stevens, N.J. 133 (17-14-6)
Brian Leetch, NYR 112 (10-14-20)
Sergei Gonchar, WSH 68 (1-15-18)
Al MacInnis, STL 39 (3-5-9)
Sergei Zubov, DAL 35 (1-8-6)
Brian Rafalski, N.J. 30 (2-5-5)
Chris Pronger, STL 27 (1-5-7)
Wade Redden, OTT 14 (0-3-5)
Ed Jovanovski, VAN 10 (0-1-7)
Eric Desjardins, PHI 5 (1-0-0)
Derian Hatcher, DAL 5 (0-1-2)
Dan McGillis, PHI 4 (0-0-4)
16 Scott Niedermayer, N.J. 3 (0-0-3)
Oleg Tverdovsky, ANA 2 (0-0-2)
Darius Kasparaitis, PIT 1 (0-0-1); Brad Lukowich, DAL 1 (0-0-1); Janne Niinimaa, EDM 1 (0-0-1);

01-02
Nicklas Listrom 272 (49-9-0)
Chris Chelios 231 (37-14-4)
Rob Blake 211 (25-27-5)
Sergei Gonchar 97 (5-19-15)
Chris Pronger 76(3-15-16)
Teppo Numminen 45 (0-11-12)
Brian Leetch 38 (1-6-15)
Ed Jovanovski 34 (0-8-10)
Brian Rafalski 14 (0-3-5)
Adrian Aucoin 14 (0-2-8)
Kim Johnsson 7 (0-2-1)
Janne Niinimaa 7 (0-1-4)
Zdeno Chara 5 (0-0-5)
Mattias Ohlund 4 (0-1-1)
Bryan McCabe 4 (0-0-4)
Sandis Ozolinsh 4 (0-0-4)
Al MacInnis 3 (0-1-0)
Mattias Norstrom 3 (0-1-0)
Aaron Miller 2 (0-0-2)
Wade Redden 2 (0-0-2)
Adam Foote 1 (0-0-1)
Phil Housley 1 (0-0-1)
Tomas Kaberle 1 (0-0-1)
Jon Klemm 1 (0-0-1)
[/B]25 Scott Niedermayer 1 (0-0-1) 14 guys ahead are non Canadians[/B]
Scott Stevens 1 (0-0-1)
Kimmo Timonen 1 (0-0-1)

02-03
Nicklas Lidstrom 308 (61-1-0)
Al MacInnis 294 (54-8-0)
Sergei Gonchar 120 (3-29-18)
Derian Hatcher 84 (2-22-8)
Rob Blake 67 (67 (1-17-11)
Sergei Zubov 67 (0-16-19)
Ed Jovanovski 41 (1-6-18)
Zdeno Chara 30 (0-9-3)
Wade Redden 19 (1-2-8)
Dan Boyle 17 (0-3-8)
Adam Foote 16 (0-3-7)
12 Scott Niedermayer 9 (0-2-3) 7th best Canuck
Mathieu Schneider 7 (1-0-2)
Tom Poti 7 (0-2-1)
Tomas Kaberle 7 (0-1-4)
Scott Stevens 4 (0-1-1)
Eric Desjardins 3 (0-0-3)
Roman Hamrlik 2 (0-0-2)
Robert Svehla 2 (0-0-2)

03-04
SCOTT NIEDERMAYER, N.J. 470 (86-12-4)
ZDENO CHARA, OTT 352 (54-23-13)
Chris Pronger, STL 249 (25-34-22)
Bryan McCabe, TOR 138 (12-18-24)
Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 131 (5-30-16)
Adrian Aucoin, NYI 124 (3-28-25)
Mathieu Schneider, DET 113 (3-24-26)
Rob Blake, COL 104 (10-13-15)
Sergei Gonchar, BOS 69 (6-9-12)
Wade Redden, OTT 32 (0-8-8)
Brian Leetch, TOR 24 (0-4-12)

05-06
1. Ldstrom - 607 (113-14-0)
2. Niedermayer Scott - 516 (82-33-7)
Zubov - 349 (27-64-22)
Chara - 303 (20-59-26)
Pronger - 105 (1-22-34)
Redden - 102 (3-19-30)
Schneider - 93 (7-7-37)
Phaneuf - 77 (0-16-29)
McCabe - 58 (1-9-26)
Visnovsky - 42 (0-7-21)

06-07
1. NICKLAS LIDSTROM, DET 678 (130-8-4) 8 First Team, 0 Second Team
2. SCOTT NIEDERMAYER, ANA 622 (107-28-3) 3 First Team, 1 Second Team
3. Chris Pronger, ANA 407 (31-79-15)
4. Dan Boyle, T.B. 198 (6-46-30)
5. Kimmo Timonen, NSH 117 (1-27-31)
6. Dion Phaneuf, CGY 100 (3-20-25)
7. Sergei Gonchar, PIT 82 (2-16-24)
8. Sheldon Souray, MTL 67 (1-12-26)
9. Brian Campbell, BUF 47 (0-10-17)
10. Sergei Zubov, DAL 46 (0-10-16)

07-08
1. NICKLAS LIDSTROM, DET 668 (133-1-0)
2. DION PHANEUF, CGY 411 (42-59-24)
3. Zdeno Chara, BOS 354 (41-42-23)
4. Brian Campbell, S.J. 297 (20-53-38)
5. Sergei Gonchar, PIT 288 (23-46-35)
6. Andrei Markov, MTL 134 (4-27-33)
7. Mike Green, WSH 59 (1-8-30)
8. Chris Pronger, ANA 58 (1-13-14)
9. Brian Rafalski, DET 38 (1-4-21)
10. Brent Burns, MIN 21 (1-3-7)
11. Duncan Keith, CHI 20 (0-3-11)
12. Mathieu Schneider, ANA 12 (1-1-4)
13. Mark Streit, MTL 11 (0-2-5)
14. Scott Niedermayer, ANA 7 (0-2-1) 8th Canuck

08-09
1 Mike Green WSH 594 107 18 5
2 Zdeno Chara BOS 566 97 26 3
3 Nicklas Lidstrom DET 471 49 72 10
4 Dan Boyle SJ 173 2 40 43
5 Shea Weber NSH 172 4 36 44
6 Andrei Markov MTL 106 1 23 32
7 Duncan Keith CHI 97 3 19 25
8 Brian Rafalski DET 39 1 5 19
9 Scott Niedermayer ANA 33 0 6 15 5th best Canuck
10 Mark Streit NYI 29 0 4 17

09-10
1 Keith Duncan CHI 604 112 14 2
2 Green Mike WAS 524 80 38 10
3 Doughty Drew LA 433 39 75 13
4 Lidstrom Nicklas DET 242 12 44 50
5 Pronger Chris PHI 155 5 30 40
6 Boyle Dan SJ 149 5 23 55
7 Weber Shea NSH 83 3 15 23
8 Chara Zdeno BOS 70 3 13 16
9 Myers Tyler BUF 18 0 0 18
10 Seabrook Brent CHI 12 1 1 4
11 Ehrhoff Christian VAN 10 0 1 7
12 Schultz Jeff WAS 8 1 1 0
13 Streit Mark NYI 8 1 0 3
14 Rafalski Brian DET 8 0 1 5
15 Suter Ryan NSH 7 0 2 1
16 Jovanovski Ed PHO 3 0 1 0
17 Gonchar Sergei PIT 2 0 0 2
17 Niedermayer Scott ANA 2 0 0 2

Norris

97-98
Rob Blake 401 (27-12-8-2-1)
Nicklas Lidstrom 369 (15-22-10-5-0)
Chris Pronger 316 (8-15-23-5-1)
Scott Stevens 84 (3-2-2-9-3)
5 Scott Niedermayer 58 (0-0-3-10-13)
Larry Murphy 47 (1-0-3-5-7)
Ray Bourque 37 (0-1-3-2-9)
Al MacInnis 26 (0-1-1-4-2)
Sergei Zubov 22 (0-1-0-3-6)
Teppo Numminen 22 (0-0-1-3-8)
Darryl Sydor 6 (0-0-0-2-0)
Chris Chelios 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Kenny Jonsson 3 (0-0-0-1-0)

98-99
Al MacInnis 548 (54-0-1-1-0)
Nicklas Lidstrom 234 (0-21-9-13-3)
Ray Bourque 157 (0-9-12-8-10)
Chris Pronger 107 (1-5-9-3-8)
Eric Desjardins 91 (0-6-4-6-11)
Scott Stevens 55 (0-3-4-4-2)
Derian Hatcher 53 (0-4-3-24)
Brian Leetch 49 (0-2-3-5-5)
Fredrik Olausson 48 (0-1-5-4-4)
Phil Housley 40 (1-2-1-3-2)
Larry Murphy 21 (0-1-1-3-0)
12 Scott Niedermayer 18 (0-2-0-1-1)
Sergei Zubov 12 (0-0-1-2-1)

02-03
Nicklas Lidstrom 560 (42-20-0-0-0)
Al MacInnis 486 (20-38-4-0-0)
Derian Hatcher 142 (0-1-21-9-3)
Sergei Gonchar 131 (0-1-12-17-13)
Rob Blake 62 (0-0-8-5-7)
Ed Jovanovski 58 (0-2-5-5-4)
Zdeno Chara 55 (0-0-4-10-5)
Sergei Zubov 37 (0-0-3-4-10)
Wade Redden 21 (0-0-2-2-5)
Adam Foote 18 (0-0-1-3-4)
Tomas Kaberle 9 (0-0-0-3-0)
Dan Boyle 8 (0-0-0-2-2)
13 Scott Niedermayer 7 (0-0-1-0-2) 7th best Canuck
Eric Desjardins 6 (0-0-0-1-3)
Brian Leetch 5 (0-0-1-0-0); Scott Stevens 5 (0-0-0-1-2)
Chris Chelios 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Sandis Ozolinsh 1 (0-0-0-0-1)

03-04
Scott Niedermayer, NJD 872 (72-13-10-3-2)
Zdeno Chara, OTT 563 (19-36-16-11-8)
Chris Pronger, STL 345 (7-19-16-17-11)
Bryan McCabe, TOR 189 (1-12-10-10-15)
Adrian Aucoin, NYI 166 (2-3-12-16-17)
Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 165 (1-6-10-19-6)
Mathieu Schneider, DET 144 (1-2-17-7-14)
Rob Blake, COL 124 (1-8-5-9-6)
Sergei Gonchar, BOS 55 (0-3-4-4-2)
Wade Redden, OTT 31 (0-0-2-6-3)
Brian Leetch, TOR 19 (0-0-2-2-3)
Sheldon Souray, MON 12 (0-1-0-0-5)
Marek Malik, VAN 7 (0-1-0-0-0)
Mattias Ohlund, VAN 3 (0-0-0-0-3)

05-06
1. Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 1,152 (91-28-8-2-0)
2. Scott Niedermayer, ANA 817 (29-57-16-15-3)
3. Sergei Zubov, DAL 464 (0-21-42-31-14)
4. Zdeno Chara, OTT 430 (5-14-35-30-17)
5. Wade Redden, OTT 115 (0-1-12-12-12)
6. Mathieu Schneider, DET 111 (4-5-1-4-19)
7. Chris Pronger, EDM 97 (0-1-5-15-20)
8. Dion Phaneuf, CGY 61 (0-0-6-6-13)
9. Bryan McCabe, TOR 44 (0-1-2-6-9)
10. Lubomir Visnovsky, LOS 39 (0-0-2-6-11)

06-07
1. Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 1217 (87-44-5-4-2)
2. Scott Niedermayer, ANA 1024 (46-62-22-6-2)
3. Chris Pronger, ANA 608 (6-25-55-28-14)
4. Dan Boyle, T.B. 219 (1-5-21-19-12)
5. Kimmo Timonen, NSH 144 (0-2-9-24-13)
6. Dion Phaneuf, CGY 98 (0-1-6-17-10)
7. Sergei Gonchar, PIT 85 (1-1-6-8-14)
8. Sheldon Souray, MTL 67 (1-0-5-7-11)
9. Sergei Zubov, DAL 42 (0-0-4-5-7)
10. Brian Campbell, BUF 42 (0-0-3-4-15)

07-08
1. Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 1313 (127-5-1-1-0)
2. Dion Phaneuf, CGY 561 (2-38-37-26-12)
3. Zdeno Chara, BOS 486 (3-38-23-21-12)
4. Sergei Gonchar, PIT 370 (1-24-21-21-24)
5. Brian Campbell, S.J. 333 (1-18-16-31-24)
6. Andrei Markov, MTL 156 (0-4-15-11-20)
7. Mike Green, WSH 84 (0-1-7-10-12)
8. Chris Pronger, ANA 56 (0-2-5-5-2)
9. Brian Rafalski, DET 25 (0-1-1-2-7)
10. Scott Niedermayer, ANA 22 (0-2-1-1-0)
11. Duncan Keith, CHI 19 (0-0-2-0-9)

08-09
1 Zdeno Chara BOS 1034 68 36 18 4 0
2 Mike Green WSH 982 50 53 19 4 4
3 Nicklas Lidstrom DET 733 14 34 58 19 8
4 Shea Weber NSH 186 0 4 11 25 28
5 Dan Boyle SJ 173 0 2 4 38 25
6 Duncan Keith CHI 95 0 2 4 14 19
7 Andrei Markov MTL 95 0 1 9 10 13
8 Mark Streit NYI 29 0 0 1 5 9
9 Brian Rafalski DET 27 1 0 0 4 5
10 Scott Niedermayer ANA 27 0 0 3 2 6


Hart


03-04
Martin St. Louis, TAM 1,016 (97-5-1-2-0)
Jarome Iginla, CGY 253 (2-20-15-3-9)
Martin Brodeur, NJD 213 (2-14-11-11-7)
Miikka Kiprusoff, CGY 193 (0-19-7-7-4)
Markus Naslund, VAN 176 (0-11-10-13-10)
Roberto Luongo, FLA 167 (2-10-8-8-13)
Joe Sakic, COL 144 (0-6-9-15-12)
Marty Turco, DAL 87 (0-3-8-6-8)
9 Scott Niedermayer, NJD 70 (0-2-6-7-5) 5 of top 10 are Goalies
Ed Belfour, TOR 59 (1-2-3-5-5)
Ilya Kovalchuk, ATL 59 (0-1-7-4-5)
Mats Sundin, TOR 55 (0-4-4-1-4)
Andrew Raycroft, BOS 43 (0-1-5-3-2)
Joe Thornton, BOS 37 (1-2-1-2-2)

05-06
Joe Thornton, SAN 1,058 (67-48-9-1-4)
2. Jaromir Jagr, NYR 974 (48-49-30-0-1)
3. Miikka Kiprusoff, CGY 561 (10 24 45 20 8)
4. Eric Staal, CAR 121 (0 0 9 18 22)
5. Daniel Alfredsson, OTT 119 (0-2-6-20-15)
6. Alexander Ovechkin, WAS 109 (1-0-8-14-17)
7. Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 106 (1-2-7-12-11)
8. Scott Niedermayer, ANA 66 (1-0-2-13-7)
9. Henrik Lundqvist, NYR 46 (0-2-4-2-6)
10. Rod Brind'Amour, CAR 33 (0-1-3-3-2)

06-07
1. Sidney Crosby, PIT 1225 (91-34-14-2-1)
2. Roberto Luongo, VAN 801 (25-46-35-16-6)
3. Martin Brodeur, NJ 763 (21-45-39-12-7)
4. Vincent Lecavalier, T.B. 362 (5-6-22-48-16)
5. Joe Thornton, S.J. 230 (0-8-11-27-38)
6. Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 53 (1-1-3-4-9)
7. Scott Niedermayer, ANA 45 (0-1-3-4-11)
8. Joe Sakic, COL 44 (0-0-4-5-9)
9. Teemu Selanne, ANA 36 (0-0-2-6-8)
10. Marian Hossa, ATL 35 (0-0-3-4-8)

Here are Savard's total again

Hart 6th
Norris 4,5,5,5,6,8,12th
AllStar 4,5,5,5,6,6,12,22

Here are Nieds

Hart 7,8,9
Norris 1,2,2,5,10,10,12,13
AllStar 1,2,3,4,9,12,12,13,14,16,17

A couple of things to consider here

1) Nieds loses a year to the lockout in his peak the Hart voting, his 1,2,2 in Norris an his 1,2,3 in AS voting. Depending on how guys consider lost time to WW2 it's somethign quite significant to consider.

2) The level of competition. I made a couple of notes for Nieds but basically he played in a fully integrated NHL and if we look at only Canadian competition for him it becomes even more of a slam dunk for him. For Savard there are other players who didn't play in the NHL at the time he did that could have competed with him (and probably should ahve given their rankings in the top 60 Dmen of all time.

Guys like Suchy, Vasiliev, a young Fetisov and others. either these guys would have had an impact had they played in the NHL and thus affected Savards ranking or their own ranking would have gone down. It's almost impossible that neither of those 2 things would have happened.

On a related note Nieds plays for Canada in best on best tournaments both in 97 and 10 indicating that he is in the mix for top 6 Canadian Dman at those times which is pretty much on par with Savard even in his peak and prime years with only Salming being the non Canadian affecting his voting at all.

What Epsilon said about Nieds being over rated by alot of modern media is true but I suggest that we in the histroy section as a group under rate him equally so. Why this is the case I'm not sure.

I won't bother with Savard and Nieds top 10 scoring finishes for Dmen over time because we all know pretty clearly that it's not even close.

Also Nieds was consistent, having 15 full seasons, one with 57 GP and another with 48 due to starting the season later to be with his family (or contract reasons).

Savard has 12 full season and 4 partial ones missed due to injury.


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04-13-2013, 03:11 PM
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for giggles, here's the scoring finish comparisons, top 20 only:

savard

6 ('75)
10 ('73)
11 ('69)
12 ('70)
13 ('76)
16 ('78)
18 ('77)


niedermayer

1 ('07)
2 ('98)
2 ('04)
3 ('09)
6 ('06)
11 ('10)
12 ('99)
20 ('03)


no not close. but closer than i would have suspected. nieds some mediocre offensive years once rafalski replaced him on the PP.

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04-13-2013, 03:20 PM
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Geez, going by these voting patterns one would think Guy Lapointe was better than Serge Savard, which he wasn't.

Or it could mean that voting in the 70's had a bias against defensive d-men, resulting in a backlash in the early 80's where Langway won two Norris Trophies.

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04-13-2013, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Geez, going by these voting patterns one would think Guy Lapointe was better than Serge Savard, which he wasn't.

Or it could mean that voting in the 70's had a bias against defensive d-men, resulting in a backlash in the early 80's where Langway won two Norris Trophies.
Both things are true to a degree but his best finish also benefits from the changing tide in that reguard in 79.

This still doesn't make up for the huge gap in the non Canadians, and how they performed, not in the league during one time period and not in the other one though.

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04-13-2013, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
for giggles, here's the scoring finish comparisons, top 20 only:

savard

6 ('75)
10 ('73)
11 ('69)
12 ('70)
13 ('76)
16 ('78)
18 ('77)


niedermayer

1 ('07)
2 ('98)
2 ('04)
3 ('09)
6 ('06)
11 ('10)
12 ('99)
20 ('03)


no not close. but closer than i would have suspected. Nieds some mediocre offensive years once rafalski replaced him on the PP.
It's probably closer than on expects because in part of the composition for the two time periods.

Take out non Candians for both Savard and Nieds and it's becomes quite clear how large the gap is in an apples to apples comp.

Also his lockout year missed comes right between a 2nd and 6th, the latter being the best ever finish for Savard.

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04-13-2013, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Geez, going by these voting patterns one would think Guy Lapointe was better than Serge Savard, which he wasn't.

Or it could mean that voting in the 70's had a bias against defensive d-men, resulting in a backlash in the early 80's where Langway won two Norris Trophies.
I think that the writers who voted on awards were clearly biased towards offensive defensemen after the 1967 expansion and remain so to this day, with the notable exception of the backlash that got Langway his awards.

I think Guy Lapointe vs Scott Niedermayer would be a more apples to apples comparison when talking about awards finishes.

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04-13-2013, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
It's probably closer than on expects because in part of the composition for the two time periods.

Take out non Candians for both Savard and Nieds and it's becomes quite clear how large the gap is in an apples to apples comp.

Also his lockout year missed comes right between a 2nd and 6th, the latter being the best ever finish for Savard.
we have very different definitions of what apples to apples means.



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04-13-2013, 04:00 PM
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I think that the writers who voted on awards were clearly biased towards offensive defensemen after the 1967 expansion and remain so to this day, with the notable exception of the backlash that got Langway his awards.
While I generally agree with this Jacques Laperriere did quite well in Norris a d voting after expansion as well and he was less an offensive force than Savard was.

Also like I mentioned in an earlier post his best finish was probably on the early black lash wave.

We also have Fetisov who was making an impact as early as 77 in the international stage and had "arrived" by 79, Savards only post season all star team.

There is also Vasiliev (25), JC Tremblay in the WHA (40), Suchy (49) and Pospíšil (58) who overlapped much of Savards career. something surely gives if there is no WHA and an integrated NHL don't you think? Or that it is highly likely even?

Quote:
I think Guy Lapointe vs Scott Niedermayer would be a more apples to apples comparison when talking about awards finishes.
Lapointe is another in a long list of late 60's and 70's guys that got a huge benefit of the doubt in the top 60 project don't you think?

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04-13-2013, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
While I generally agree with this Jacques Laperriere did quite well in Norris a d voting after expansion as well and he was less an offensive force than Savard was.

Also like I mentioned in an earlier post his best finish was probably on the early black lash wave.

We also have Fetisov who was making an impact as early as 77 in the international stage and had "arrived" by 79, Savards only post season all star team.

There is also Vasiliev (25), JC Tremblay in the WHA (40), Suchy (49) and Pospíšil (58) who overlapped much of Savards career. something surely gives if there is no WHA and an integrated NHL don't you think? Or that it is highly likely even?



Lapointe is another in a long list of late 60's and 70's guys that got a huge benefit of the doubt in the top 60 project don't you think?
You're still making this about offense. Nied's offense was not that spectacular and it really isn't that far ahead of Savard.

Savard was more than just slightly better than Nieds defensively IMO and you're really not going to find too many that would argue against this.

As far as these guys getting this supposed "huge benefit".
They were called the "BIG 3" for a reason. As flashy as Lafleur and Shutt were, as good defensively as Gainey was as solid as Kenny Dryden was...It was the "Big 3" that was the backbone of that team and made them what they were.

Also, Savard was a rock for Canada in '72 and '76 and not only didn't look out of place one bit playing against the best in WORLD at the time, he stood out defensively quite often in both series.

I also noticed that you conveniently left out a comparison of playoff scoring between the two in all those offensive stats.
Just slipped your mind I'm sure


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04-13-2013, 07:27 PM
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You're still making this about offense. Nied's offense was not that spectacular and it really isn't that far ahead of Savard.

Savard was more than just slightly better than Nieds defensively IMO and you're really not going to find too many that would argue against this.

As far as these guys getting this supposed "huge benefit".
They were called the "BIG 3" for a reason. As flashy as Lafleur and Shutt were, as good defensively as Gainey was as solid as Kenny Dryden was...It was the "Big 3" that was the backbone of that team and made them what they were.

Also, Savard was a rock for Canada in '72 and '76 and not only didn't look out of place one bit playing against the best in WORLD at the time, he stood out defensively quite often in both series.

I also noticed that you conveniently left out a comparison of playoff scoring between the two in all those offensive stats.
Just slipped your mind I'm sure
I also noticed the gratuitous reference to the ethnic makeup of the league in that post as well: The broken record still skips

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04-13-2013, 07:27 PM
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um... major typo in thread title Hv... comparisson.

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04-13-2013, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
You're still making this about offense. Nied's offense was not that spectacular and it really isn't that far ahead of Savard.

Savard was more than just slightly better than Nieds defensively IMO and you're really not going to find too many that would argue against this.

As far as these guys getting this supposed "huge benefit".
They were called the "BIG 3" for a reason. As flashy as Lafleur and Shutt were, as good defensively as Gainey was as solid as Kenny Dryden was...It was the "Big 3" that was the backbone of that team and made them what they were.

Also, Savard was a rock for Canada in '72 and '76 and not only didn't look out of place one bit playing against the best in WORLD at the time, he stood out defensively quite often in both series.

I also noticed that you conveniently left out a comparison of playoff scoring between the two in all those offensive stats.
Just slipped your mind I'm sure
i agree with all those things.

but re: playoff scoring, looks pretty even to me. accounting for niedermayer's era, which gives him an advantage in games played/total points but a disadvantage in per-game stats, damn near identical i'd say.

and their best years (savard's conn smythe year, niedermayer in '03) are comparable offensively too, with the advantage to niedermayer for leading the league in playoff points.

one thing you could say in favour of savard, though, is that his career PPG is brought down by his later years, while niedermayer's needs those "late" years in the more offensive post-lockout NHL to bring his career average to about even with savard's. which is to say savard was more consistently good as a playoff scorer, whereas niedermayer was good to start, mediocre in the middle, then excellent one year, then good again to the end.

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04-13-2013, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
You're still making this about offense. Nied's offense was not that spectacular and it really isn't that far ahead of Savard.
The OP was about their respective voting records, not their top 10 scoring finishes.

Quote:
Savard was more than just slightly better than Nieds defensively IMO and you're really not going to find too many that would argue against this.
How exactly does one measure this?, voters in the day didn't think enough of his defense to vote him higher than they did. Other defensive Dmen were also getting votes as well.

Quote:
As far as these guys getting this supposed "huge benefit".
They were called the "BIG 3" for a reason. As flashy as Lafleur and Shutt were, as good defensively as Gainey was as solid as Kenny Dryden was...It was the "Big 3" that was the backbone of that team and made them what they were.
These guys was in reference to all of the late 60's and 70's guys as a group, both in the NHL, which had just gone through rapid expansion BTW, and those outside the NHL that I mentioned. Dave burrows was an excellent defensive Dman in the 70's but he played on a poor team not a stacked on, thus less recognition. As far as Lapointe goes he has 9 good to great years then years quite a bit lower than Nieds lowest ones.

Quote:
Also, Savard was a rock for Canada in '72 and '76 and not only didn't look out of place one bit playing against the best in WORLD at the time, he stood out defensively quite often in both series.
Quote:
I also noticed that you conveniently left out a comparison of playoff scoring between the two in all those offensive stats.
Just slipped your mind I'm sure
Playoffs are much much a push at best for both guys, we ahve already been over the MPG that Nieds played on those deep runs and 4 SC teams. Savard also has a Conn Smythe but really do you think he was better in the playoffs than Nieds?

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04-13-2013, 08:43 PM
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I also noticed the gratuitous reference to the ethnic makeup of the league in that post as well: The broken record still skips
Sure the late 60's and early 70's were the most competitive times ever in hockey...right.

the numbers prove otherwise as does the top 60dman project which has 4 Dmen who didn't play in the NHL for their primes.

But context doesn't really matter does it?

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04-13-2013, 08:46 PM
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we have very different definitions of what apples to apples means.


Amusing but exactly how is comparing both Savard and Nieds to their Canadian peers not apples to apples?

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04-13-2013, 09:17 PM
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Amusing but exactly how is comparing both Savard and Nieds to their Canadian peers not apples to apples?
i guess you could say it's apples to apples in the same way that taking out all the guys who had summer jobs during savard's and niedermayer's career is comparing apples to apples.

but i don't accept that a player's accomplishments should be lessened because he didn't beat players he didn't actually play. my definition of apples would be the players that were a player's actual, not imagined, competition.

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04-13-2013, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
The OP was about their respective voting records, not their top 10 scoring finishes.



How exactly does one measure this?, voters in the day didn't think enough of his defense to vote him higher than they did. Other defensive Dmen were also getting votes as well.



These guys was in reference to all of the late 60's and 70's guys as a group, both in the NHL, which had just gone through rapid expansion BTW, and those outside the NHL that I mentioned. Dave burrows was an excellent defensive Dman in the 70's but he played on a poor team not a stacked on, thus less recognition. As far as Lapointe goes he has 9 good to great years then years quite a bit lower than Nieds lowest ones.





Playoffs are much much a push at best for both guys, we ahve already been over the MPG that Nieds played on those deep runs and 4 SC teams. Savard also has a Conn Smythe but really do you think he was better in the playoffs than Nieds?
Are you still trying to say that Niedermayer's competition group was better than Orr, Potvin, Robinson, Salming and Park???
Good luck on that.

And yes, I do think he was better in the '69 playoffs than Nieds was in the '07 playoffs. You may want to do some research into those '69 playoffs and Savard's performance in them me thinks.
Only reason Niedermayer even got that Conn was because Pronger was suspended 2 games during the playoffs.

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04-13-2013, 09:40 PM
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i guess you could say it's apples to apples in the same way that taking out all the guys who had summer jobs during savard's and niedermayer's career is comparing apples to apples.

but i don't accept that a player's accomplishments should be lessened because he didn't beat players he didn't actually play. my definition of apples would be the players that were a player's actual, not imagined, competition.
So how do you treat the fact of the matter that those other guys weren't in the NHL at the time Savard played.

You know the 4 guys that made our top 60 dman list and overlapped with Savard? Not some imaginary guys here that I'm talking about.

Even with those 4 guys not playing in the NHL and JC skipping over to the WHA Nieds resume on voting sure looks alot better even straight up to Savard. Unless one looks at some weird way without looking at peak and career.

Not sure how you are treating the lockout year either, does Nieds get any benefit of the doubt, if not the WW2 lost years don't either I hope.

Finally, not that it even applies to the comp between the two guys because we have those 4 non NHLers, how do you exactly treat 06 guys to the fully integrated ones? As even, that's what's indicated by your post here please clarify.

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04-13-2013, 09:45 PM
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So how do you treat the fact of the matter that those other guys weren't in the NHL at the time Savard played.

You know the 4 guys that made our top 60 dman list and overlapped with Savard? Not some imaginary guys here that I'm talking about.

Even with those 4 guys not playing in the NHL and JC skipping over to the WHA Nieds resume on voting sure looks alot better even straight up to Savard. Unless one looks at some weird way without looking at peak and career.

Not sure how you are treating the lockout year either, does Nieds get any benefit of the doubt, if not the WW2 lost years don't either I hope.

Finally, not that it even applies to the comp between the two guys because we have those 4 non NHLers, how do you exactly treat 06 guys to the fully integrated ones? As even, that's what's indicated by your post here please clarify.
So really, the issue is not with Savard, the issue is with including those non-NHL guys in the first place.
Not one of them proved that they were capable of playing that same high level on the smaller ice at an NHL level, yet they were given the benefit of the doubt.
Maybe that was the mistake eh

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04-13-2013, 09:54 PM
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Are you still trying to say that Niedermayer's competition group was better than Orr, Potvin, Robinson, Salming and Park???
Good luck on that.
As a group yes, Potvin and Orr only overlapped on Potvins first two years in the league and Orr's alst two full seasons, it wasn't like Orr and Potvin were keeping Savard out of the mix year in year out. Go back and look at all of the other guys ahead of savard in voting.

Nieds was up, over time and not all at the same time

Bourque 3rd
Lidstrom 5th
Chelios 10th
Coffey 13th
MacInnis 18th
Stevens 19th
Pronger 20th
Leetch 23rd
Chara 42nd (at the time, may or may not move up)
Blake 44th
Murphy 50th

and quite a few other quality Dmen that didn't make the top 60 list for various reasons, the historical nature of the project and the bad luck of playing in a 30 team fully integrated NHL among 2 of them. Zubov is probably the best of the non 60 lot.

So yes as a group they are better than Savard's NHL grouping, the top 60 project sure seems to indicate that as well.



Quote:
And yes, I do think he was better in the '69 playoffs than Nieds was in the '07 playoffs. You may want to do some research into those '69 playoffs and Savard's performance in them me thinks.
Only reason Niedermayer even got that Conn was because Pronger was suspended 2 games during the playoffs.
There is usually several players in the mix for the Conn Smythe and I was really talking overall playoff records between the 2 players. Feel free to make an argument for Savard over Nieds but Nieds didn't play
26:32 MPG in 129 playoff games from 99-09 aged 26-35 because his teams didn't ahve anyone to throw out there either.

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04-13-2013, 10:04 PM
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So really, the issue is not with Savard, the issue is with including those non-NHL guys in the first place.
Not one of them proved that they were capable of playing that same high level on the smaller ice at an NHL level, yet they were given the benefit of the doubt.
Maybe that was the mistake eh
The original thing that was actually pointed out by someone else in the top 60 dman project, and I noticed it as well when I looked it it was the larger than expected amount of Dmen from Savards time on the list.

Savard was perhaps the weakest of the NHL sample although one could make an argument for Lapointe as well.

part of the problem might have been the structure of the project and how the original lists were done in order to serve a historical purpose, perhaps over the best pure 60 Dmen of all time, and when they came up ect...

Personally the Vasiliev at 25th is probably more shocking than Savqards' postion and maybe the same holds true for the other guys, Suchy, the high rank of Fetisov and Pospíšil.

Look closely at the way voters treated Nieds and Savard, throw in their complete seasons, Savard has 4 partial ones to Nieds 2 (Nieds has 15 good to excellent full seasons over Savards 12) at some point it becomes quite clear on who the better player was according to the evidence.

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04-13-2013, 10:23 PM
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Not one of them proved that they were capable of playing that same high level on the smaller ice at an NHL level, yet they were given the benefit of the doubt.

Maybe that was the mistake eh
I certainly wouldn't have included them. As far as I'm concerned if you didn't do it in the NHL then you didn't do it at all. It's one thing to tear up competition that's AHL level or below, it's quite another to do it with the big boys in the NHL.

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04-14-2013, 12:11 AM
  #23
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07-08
1. NICKLAS LIDSTROM, DET 668 (133-1-0)
2. DION PHANEUF, CGY 411 (42-59-24)
3. Zdeno Chara, BOS 354 (41-42-23)
4. Brian Campbell, S.J. 297 (20-53-38)
5. Sergei Gonchar, PIT 288 (23-46-35)
6. Andrei Markov, MTL 134 (4-27-33)
7. Mike Green, WSH 59 (1-8-30)
8. Chris Pronger, ANA 58 (1-13-14)
9. Brian Rafalski, DET 38 (1-4-21)
10. Brent Burns, MIN 21 (1-3-7)
11. Duncan Keith, CHI 20 (0-3-11)
12. Mathieu Schneider, ANA 12 (1-1-4)
13. Mark Streit, MTL 11 (0-2-5)
14. Scott Niedermayer, ANA 7 (0-2-1) 8th Canuck
Man Nieds must have played really awesome in just 48 games to have a few votes thrown his way.

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04-14-2013, 12:27 AM
  #24
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Man Nieds must have played really awesome in just 48 games to have a few votes thrown his way.
Well a 14th in Norris in 48 GP is probably better than Mario's 2nd for the Hart in 01 (in 43 GP) though both aren't very defensible.

Some voters often do this but not to the extreme of the 2nd for Hart of Mario though, that takes alot of voters doing the wrong thing IMO.

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04-14-2013, 09:12 AM
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I certainly wouldn't have included them. As far as I'm concerned if you didn't do it in the NHL then you didn't do it at all. It's one thing to tear up competition that's AHL level or below, it's quite another to do it with the big boys in the NHL.
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