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The YETI - Soderberg

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Old
05-01-2013, 08:42 AM
  #751
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Originally Posted by nycbruins View Post
Last 2 games of the season, Dog & Thorny looked good & did everything asked of them. Last 2 games of the season Soderberg looked a little lost, slow & even tired.

I'm not saying I agree with Claude at all, especially not with the idea of scratching Dougie, but like someone else said, it's about who is going to play the best TONIGHT! You don't just sit back & watch while some guys are making mistakes all over the ice & not contributing at all, thinking that it will pay off down the road. There isn't much "down the road" if you lose a couple games early (2011 excepted.)

But that applies for benching talent like Soderberg & Peverley, where I think their potential contributions can definitely be made up throughout the lineup. With Dougie, however, I just don't see any d-men on this team that bring what he brings & I think you should throw him out there & give him some time, especially for the PP.
And if he looks lost or whatever, just play Chara & Seids heavy minutes in Game 1 & you have 2 days off before Game 2 & can switch then.
But it looks like McQuaid is playing no matter what, so moot point.
Agree with you 100% on Hamilton, but at the end of the day is it really a shock that CJ would sit him? He did the same thing to Seguin. And before that he did it to Kessel. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now. I don't care that the guy is a rookie. He brings something very valuable to the table. Let him play.

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05-01-2013, 09:17 AM
  #752
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Agree with you 100% on Hamilton, but at the end of the day is it really a shock that CJ would sit him? He did the same thing to Seguin. And before that he did it to Kessel. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now. I don't care that the guy is a rookie. He brings something very valuable to the table. Let him play.
Totally would have won the cup in 16 games if Seguin hadn't been benched.

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05-01-2013, 09:21 AM
  #753
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Exactly. The answer to not being able to score more than a goal or two a game isn't to give Shawn Thornton more TOI. To even suggest he starts over someone with more offensive upside is ridiculous. The real issue is that Julien is singularly focused on goal prevention and he'd be happy to win 1-0 every game. This team has shown a large enough sample size this year to convince me that isn't going to happen. They don't play well enough defensively to rely solely on Rask to stand on his head. They need to score more, and the only way to do that is to dress your best offensive players, even if it means sacrificing some d.
Tarasenko sat for the Blues, in place of offensive studs like Porter, Cracknell, Reaves. Kyle Clifford is playing on the top line of the defending Stanley Cup Champions. Dwight King is in their top 9.

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05-01-2013, 09:29 AM
  #754
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Tarasenko sat for the Blues, in place of offensive studs like Porter, Cracknell, Reaves. Kyle Clifford is playing on the top line of the defending Stanley Cup Champions. Dwight King is in their top 9.
So?

I don't care about what other teams are doing. I see Thornton as having a skill set that will not be called on very often (if at all), and that makes him irrelevant in a playoff series.

Care to guess how many fighting majors Thornton had during their cup run? Or what about in last year's playoffs? Or what about 2010? I'll give you a hint. It rhymes with hero.

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05-01-2013, 09:29 AM
  #755
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Exactly. The answer to not being able to score more than a goal or two a game isn't to give Shawn Thornton more TOI. To even suggest he starts over someone with more offensive upside is ridiculous. The real issue is that Julien is singularly focused on goal prevention and he'd be happy to win 1-0 every game. This team has shown a large enough sample size this year to convince me that isn't going to happen. They don't play well enough defensively to rely solely on Rask to stand on his head. They need to score more, and the only way to do that is to dress your best offensive players, even if it means sacrificing some d.
They're finally healthy enough that they can roll 4 lines capable of putting the puck in the back of the net and playing the majority of the game in the other teams' zone...and we get this.

This is Stuart-McQuaid-Hnidy-Reich "let's not mistakes" rather than make plays. But the dirty secret is that Daugavins-Thornton-McQuaid all make their share of mistakes without the benefit of plays.

I know some people are comfortable with and even favor this mentality, but I hate it.

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05-01-2013, 09:35 AM
  #756
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Originally Posted by MTaylorJ1 View Post
They're finally healthy enough that they can roll 4 lines capable of putting the puck in the back of the net and playing the majority of the game in the other teams' zone...and we get this.

This is Stuart-McQuaid-Hnidy-Reich "let's not mistakes" rather than make plays. But the dirty secret is that Daugavins-Thornton-McQuaid all make their share of mistakes without the benefit of plays.

I know some people are comfortable with and even favor this mentality, but I hate it.
I'm with you that. It makes me crazy. It's like the PP philosophy. It's about giving your team the best chance to score, not worrying about the other team possibly getting a shorty. But that's what the PP's always seem to be about. Goal prevention versus capitalizing on their own chances.

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05-01-2013, 09:37 AM
  #757
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
So?

I don't care about what other teams are doing. I see Thornton as having a skill set that will not be called on very often (if at all), and that makes him irrelevant in a playoff series.

Care to guess how many fighting majors Thornton had during their cup run? Or what about in last year's playoffs? Or what about 2010? I'll give you a hint. It rhymes with hero.
Point being that better hockey minds than you and I see the value in having guys play specific roles, not all being having the potential to be offensive. Especially when you're referring to a guy with 5 games of NHL experience and 2 assists under his belt.

Care to guess how many Stanley Cup rings the guys making those decisions have? I'll give you a hint, it rhymes with a !@#$ load more than you do.


Last edited by DoubleAAAA: 05-01-2013 at 09:43 AM.
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05-01-2013, 09:45 AM
  #758
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Talent and potential doesn't win out if it could hurt you more than help you. IMO the chances Soderberg has a defensive lapse or a tired shift that could cost you a goal FAR outweighs the same thing happening with any of the other three. Enough so that he'd need to make up for it with added offensive promise, and he hasn't shown he can do that.
I really don't have an issue with sitting Soderberg, if I thought it made sense in relation to the rest of the lineup. He is going to be here for two years and is just learning the NA game, so it's not a huge deal. What I don't understand is the way the lineup is constructed? If you want to have a gritty North-South, banging lineup, in the hopes of getting the team back to basics and keeping it simple, I get that, but not with the line combos CJ has.

If that's what I wanted to do, I would not have Jagr with Dawg and Kelly, I would move him up in the lineup and drop Lucic down to the 3rd line with Kelly. Instead he has LKH back together, a line that was very ineffective before Horton's injury. If you want to bang, put guys together that can bang and put Jagr with some guys that utilize his skill. If you want to score, go with a more offensive oriented lineup that includes Pevs and Soderberg.

It seems like Julien is doing something in between, which I don't think is going to work, just make the team more disjointed. I could be completely wrong and the hard work of Dawg and Kelly could create chances for Jagr to finish, but I don't see that? I see a coach stubbornly sticking with a #1 line that has not worked for the most part, and having three other lines that are very responsible defensively, with one of those three that can generate offense and play D (Bergy line).

That's a play not to lose mentality, not a be hard to play against and make the opponents fear you philosophy.

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05-01-2013, 09:48 AM
  #759
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Point being that better hockey minds than you and I see the value in having guys play specific roles, not all being having the potential to be offensive. Especially when you're referring to a guy with 5 games of NHL experience and 2 assists under his belt.
So basically you're saying that because people working for hockey teams know more, I shouldn't disagree? Why bother having this site then?

It doesn't make every move they make right just because a coach or a GM has a "better hockey mind" than someone like me or you.

During the cup run, was the team better served with our without Seguin? Seems to me that they wouldn't have gotten past Tampa without him, but hey, what do I know? Guys with far better hockey minds than I decided to sit him until an injury forced their hands...

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05-01-2013, 09:51 AM
  #760
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
So basically you're saying that because people working for hockey teams know more, I shouldn't disagree? Why bother having this site then?

It doesn't make every move they make right just because a coach or a GM has a "better hockey mind" than someone like me or you.

During the cup run, was the team better served with our without Seguin? Seems to me that they wouldn't have gotten past Tampa without him, but hey, what do I know? Guys with far better hockey minds than I decided to sit him until an injury forced their hands...
No, you can disagree, and I can disagree with your disagreement

Whose to say we would have made it to TB with Seguin in the line up?

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05-01-2013, 09:58 AM
  #761
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Glorydaze alerted me here

But I agree. Yeti should be playing. Thornton should be sitting. Even if Carl is still adjusting. He's one of the better options we have on the pp. He hasn't made took many big mistakes. I say you roll him out. But Clode is Clode. He and Dougie should be out there.

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05-01-2013, 10:01 AM
  #762
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No, you can disagree, and I can disagree with your disagreement

Whose to say we would have made it to TB with Seguin in the line up?
I'm all for you disagreeing with my opinion. It's why this site is great. What I'm against is straw man arguments like "they won the cup, so you're wrong" or "Claude Julien/Peter Chiarelli work for hockey and know more, so you're wrong".

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05-01-2013, 10:11 AM
  #763
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
I'm all for you disagreeing with my opinion. It's why this site is great. What I'm against is straw man arguments like "they won the cup, so you're wrong" or "Claude Julien/Peter Chiarelli work for hockey and know more, so you're wrong".
Lonnie, in your case, you are wrong because it's you, most people get the benefit of the doubt first

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05-01-2013, 10:20 AM
  #764
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I'm with you that. It makes me crazy. It's like the PP philosophy. It's about giving your team the best chance to score, not worrying about the other team possibly getting a shorty. But that's what the PP's always seem to be about. Goal prevention versus capitalizing on their own chances.
What about our power play suggests we are playing to not give up shorties? Just because the PP sucks you think those guys are worrying too much about defense? They don't insist on two d-men. They often play an umbrella with only one man up top. They use a stretch pass frequently. I mean where does this accusation come from?

It's enough to knock these guys for the obvious...they focus too much on point shots from Chara. They take too many point shots for a team with lazy big men like Lucic who can't get to the net effectively. They have too many forwards who are too slow to retrieve the puck and don't get dirty enough (Lucic, Horton, Krejci), and they simply lack finish. None of these major issues has anything to do with preventing shorties...none. I would be willing to bet that thought hasn't ever crossed a coach's mind. Not once.

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05-01-2013, 10:25 AM
  #765
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Disagree with those saying Thornton should sit this series. He's needed against the Leafs.

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05-01-2013, 10:29 AM
  #766
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I really don't have an issue with sitting Soderberg, if I thought it made sense in relation to the rest of the lineup. He is going to be here for two years and is just learning the NA game, so it's not a huge deal. What I don't understand is the way the lineup is constructed? If you want to have a gritty North-South, banging lineup, in the hopes of getting the team back to basics and keeping it simple, I get that, but not with the line combos CJ has.

If that's what I wanted to do, I would not have Jagr with Dawg and Kelly, I would move him up in the lineup and drop Lucic down to the 3rd line with Kelly. Instead he has LKH back together, a line that was very ineffective before Horton's injury. If you want to bang, put guys together that can bang and put Jagr with some guys that utilize his skill. If you want to score, go with a more offensive oriented lineup that includes Pevs and Soderberg.

It seems like Julien is doing something in between, which I don't think is going to work, just make the team more disjointed. I could be completely wrong and the hard work of Dawg and Kelly could create chances for Jagr to finish, but I don't see that? I see a coach stubbornly sticking with a #1 line that has not worked for the most part, and having three other lines that are very responsible defensively, with one of those three that can generate offense and play D (Bergy line).

That's a play not to lose mentality, not a be hard to play against and make the opponents fear you philosophy.
I think it's important to remember a few things:

1. These are practice lines. Let's not assume these are game lines.

2. There's more to coaching than line construction. CJ could easily be putting Horton and Lucic on the first line to give them confidence and motivate them. Further, he could easily have a quick trigger there, and he has in the past.

3. I hate Jagr with defensive forwards too, but I think CJ wouldn't hesitate to move him up if (much more likely WHEN) Lucic and Horton prove themselves too lazy or ineffective with Krejci. We will see Jagr with Krejci in the playoffs...you can bank on it. If we don't and we go out quickly, then yeah CJ deserves some heat.

4. Let's just call a spade a spade here...Krejci, Lucic and Horton are all pretty young guys with talent, size, history of success and experience. If these guys can just do their ****ing jobs then you have two lines going and Jagr killing a third d-pairing. If they fail, THEY are the problem. It's time we admit it. That line needs to actually do something because if you are relegated to close to $10 million of talent playing depth, bit part roles, you are going nowhere. That has nothing to do with the coach.

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05-01-2013, 10:32 AM
  #767
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Disagree with those saying Thornton should sit this series. He's needed against the Leafs.
Serious question, why?

There isn't any fighting in the PO's, he doesn't score, he doesn't kill penalties, and if you watch him, he is not a very good body checker (always turns into the guy instead of pounding them with the shoulder).

With Lucic, McQuaid, Ference, Chara in the lineup, the B's are not going to get pushed around.

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05-01-2013, 10:37 AM
  #768
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I think it's important to remember a few things:

1. These are practice lines. Let's not assume these are game lines.

2. There's more to coaching than line construction. CJ could easily be putting Horton and Lucic on the first line to give them confidence and motivate them. Further, he could easily have a quick trigger there, and he has in the past.

3. I hate Jagr with defensive forwards too, but I think CJ wouldn't hesitate to move him up if (much more likely WHEN) Lucic and Horton prove themselves too lazy or ineffective with Krejci. We will see Jagr with Krejci in the playoffs...you can bank on it. If we don't and we go out quickly, then yeah CJ deserves some heat.

4. I think people are missing the boat with Jagr on the "third" line. If you can get something from your first two lines, you now have Jagr out there against the stiffs on that 3rd pairing in Toronto, and he should eat them up. CJ is trying to create mismatches there and it makes sense. Now if you, like me, have all but given up on Horton and Lucic, then you expect nothing from that first line and thus won't create any mismatches. But if that happens, the issue with this team is obvious, and it has nothing to do with the coach.
If Horton and Lucic are there 2010-11 playoff selves than what CJ is doing probably works, otherwise it makes no sense. I am pretty sure what the practice lines were are going to be game lines, unless he is trying to get Pevs pissed off and playing mean.

Question. If you want to create a 3rd line mismatch against a bunch of TOR Stiffs, wouldn't you be better served to have Soderberg out there with Jagr, rather than Dawg?

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05-01-2013, 10:37 AM
  #769
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I'm all for you disagreeing with my opinion. It's why this site is great. What I'm against is straw man arguments like "they won the cup, so you're wrong" or "Claude Julien/Peter Chiarelli work for hockey and know more, so you're wrong".
The argument is that the sum of the parts is greater than the individual which is why successful coaches like Julien, Sutter, Hitchcock know that at times you sacrifice marginal offensive upside for the skillset that guys like Thornton, Clifford, Reaves, Cracknell, etc bring.

Results justify those decisions and all those guys have the ultimate result to prove those decisions were the right ones.

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05-01-2013, 10:39 AM
  #770
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The argument is that the sum of the parts is greater than the individual which is why successful coaches like Julien, Sutter, Hitchcock know that at times you sacrifice marginal offensive upside for the skillset that guys like Thornton, Clifford, Reaves, Cracknell, etc bring.

Results justify those decisions and all those guys have the ultimate result to prove those decisions were the right ones.
Yeah, except that Thornton has not played like one of "those guys" since he got hurt by Scott.

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05-01-2013, 10:48 AM
  #771
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Serious question, why?

There isn't any fighting in the PO's, he doesn't score, he doesn't kill penalties, and if you watch him, he is not a very good body checker (always turns into the guy instead of pounding them with the shoulder).

With Lucic, McQuaid, Ference, Chara in the lineup, the B's are not going to get pushed around.
First and foremost as someone who can somewhat neutralize Orr or McLaren if one of them starts running around. Those 2 would eat McQuaid and you can't have Lucic or Chara go with them. Orr starts running around, Thornton addresses it.

I also think we could see some scraps this series. Two rough and tumble teams/coaches (Carlisle more than Claude even).

The merlot line's been great the last few weeks too, one of the few bright spots more often than not during the slump. And while I agree with the faults you list for ST, I also like the energy he brings in the post season. He buzzes around a lot more and is more assertive than he usually is. I still don't think he gets enough credit for turning that Vancouver series around.

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05-01-2013, 10:50 AM
  #772
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Yeah, except that Thornton has not played like one of "those guys" since he got hurt by Scott.
That's a fair argument. IMO he's earned it by being a good soldier and having the experience of having been there before, twice. He knows what it takes and I think you need to have faith that of anyone on this team, he's willing to lay it out there again. If he's ineffective, yank him, but I think he deserves the shot.

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05-01-2013, 10:50 AM
  #773
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Originally Posted by GloryDaze4877 View Post
If Horton and Lucic are there 2010-11 playoff selves than what CJ is doing probably works, otherwise it makes no sense. I am pretty sure what the practice lines were are going to be game lines, unless he is trying to get Pevs pissed off and playing mean.

Question. If you want to create a 3rd line mismatch against a bunch of TOR Stiffs, wouldn't you be better served to have Soderberg out there with Jagr, rather than Dawg?
Seems like we may be making a mountain out of a molehill concerning Soderberg and the Daug. Soderberg seems to be a bit out of shape, and tires easily, where the Daugman certainly brought the hustle last weekend. That said, prolly a coin toss, and won't likely make much difference.

Me, I'd prefer to see Pevs in there over either.

Also, for those saying Jagr is wasted on the 3rd line, I suspect he'll end up near the top of the list as far as ice time goes, less'n the B's get out to a good lead.

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05-01-2013, 11:01 AM
  #774
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It's easy to see that Soderberg has more offensive skills in this left pinky that Dogman does in his entire body. Not skating Soda with Jagr is an insane strategy but I'm not suprised that Clode is sticking to that strategy.

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05-01-2013, 11:01 AM
  #775
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If Horton and Lucic are there 2010-11 playoff selves than what CJ is doing probably works, otherwise it makes no sense. I am pretty sure what the practice lines were are going to be game lines, unless he is trying to get Pevs pissed off and playing mean.

Question. If you want to create a 3rd line mismatch against a bunch of TOR Stiffs, wouldn't you be better served to have Soderberg out there with Jagr, rather than Dawg?
Not really. What about Soderberg's play in Boston tells you he's likely to produce anything in the near future?

Soderberg and Daugavins are interchangeable IMO. Both do very little at this point. Daugavins looked very good in the last two games, so I'd give him the game tonight. If he falters, then maybe you try Soderberg.

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