HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Turning point : Agree or Disagree?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-26-2003, 10:57 PM
  #1
hosehead
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: toronto
Posts: 215
vCash: 500
Turning point : Agree or Disagree?

Throughout the forum much of the discussion is related to where the team is going thru this season & into the future. Much of it is based on the projected development of certain players & sometimes on the outcome of hypothetical trades. I would like to propose what I believe will be the turning point for the team -- that is when another player surpasses Koivu as the Habs best player. (not incl Theo)

My reasoning is as follows: Most observers will conclude that the Habs will only be as good as Koivu (maybe thats a whole other argument). Koivu can be great at times & is inspirational, however when ranked against the top player on other teams in the league I would say he's not a top tier player.

I believe the true measure of the development of the Habs prospects will be when one of them ( Higgins, Perez or ???) can become the focal point of the team. I'm not saying that it's a given that one of them will, however I believe that as the team is currently built, such a development will be the Habs best opportunity to improve in the standings. The player that eventually leads this team may not even be a Hab yet, perhaps things will happpen as in Vancouver where Naslund & Bertuzzi broke thru after being traded from elsewhere.

I'm not knocking Koivu, I like him as a player-- I just believe that when observing contending & Stanley Cup winning teams we see that the best player on these teams plays at a higher level than Koivu. Therefore, I believe that this team can only go a bit further with Koivu as the best player, no major gains will be made until at least one (maybe more) other players become the engine of the team.

Hopefully everyone will understand what I mean -- I'm just trying to get things going a bit. Little bit tired of Habs suck ,fire Julien, trade everybody posts.

hosehead is offline  
Old
09-26-2003, 11:38 PM
  #2
tinyzombies
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Calif via Montreal
Posts: 11,576
vCash: 500
It's a good point, but I think the offense will still revolve around Koivu because of his ability to buy time with the puck and then make plays. Not many in the league can match him at it if you think about it.

I still think it comes down to adding defense, speed, two-way players and toughness.

tinyzombies is offline  
Old
09-26-2003, 11:46 PM
  #3
CrAzYNiNe
Registered User
 
CrAzYNiNe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,061
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to CrAzYNiNe
Quote:
Originally Posted by hosehead
I'm not knocking Koivu, I like him as a player-- I just believe that when observing contending & Stanley Cup winning teams we see that the best player on these teams plays at a higher level than Koivu. Therefore, I believe that this team can only go a bit further with Koivu as the best player, no major gains will be made until at least one (maybe more) other players become the engine of the team.

I HATE SEEING THAT ****ING PARAGRAPH

New Jerseys has the best damn big power forwards with top 20 offensive players right? Oh course Elias was the reason they won the cup. People need to realize, maybe those big guys put you in the game, but they don't put you over the top. Look at the cup winners of the last lets say 10 years. NJ is strong? Not really. Detroit best players are PF, not in your life, maybe one or 2, but Sergei and Yzerman aren't and Lindstrom, mr. Lady Bing. Colorado, wow Forsberg and Sakic are POWER HOUSES.

Philly and TO sure have won plenty of cups lately

Really, most teams ride a great goalie, and buy into a coaches system. NJ has no great players except Brodeur, and they played Burns system well.

Can we forget about this BS of lies that PW make you win cups, cause right now, How many cups does Eric Lindros, Bill Guerin, Todd Bertuzzi... have?

CrAzYNiNe is offline  
Old
09-26-2003, 11:50 PM
  #4
CrAzYNiNe
Registered User
 
CrAzYNiNe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,061
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to CrAzYNiNe
No, not really

I will address not only about great offensive players, but the people that think we need to get PF on the team.

New Jerseys has the best damn big power forwards with top 20 offensive players right? Oh course Elias was the reason they won the cup. People need to realize, maybe those big guys put you in the game, but they don't put you over the top. Look at the cup winners of the last lets say 10 years. NJ is strong? Not really. Detroit best players are PF, not in your life, maybe one or 2, but Sergei and Yzerman aren't and Lindstrom, mr. Lady Bing. Colorado, wow Forsberg and Sakic are POWER HOUSES.

Philly and TO sure have won plenty of cups lately

Really, most teams ride a great goalie, and buy into a coaches system. NJ has no great players except Brodeur, and they played Burns system well.

Can we forget about this BS of lies that PW make you win cups, cause right now, How many cups does Eric Lindros, Bill Guerin, Todd Bertuzzi... have?

Don't get me wrong, we are week and need big boddies that can play night in and night out like a darren mccarty, but not every team needs a Bertuzzi like player, sure it helps, but it isn't needed.

If the Habs of today played with the heart of the good ole days, I think we could make the playoffs, but then again, who in the modern NHL cares about winning when they get payed the same for losing.

CrAzYNiNe is offline  
Old
09-27-2003, 04:20 AM
  #5
HABitual
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Kirkland Lake, Ontar
Posts: 5,718
vCash: 500
Whether or not the team has a good season depends on three people: Bob Gainey, Saku Koivu and Jose Theodore. Gainey must put his vast knowledge of hockey to the test and prove he can be a great general manager and make the moves that will turn this team into the contender it so deserves. Saku Koivu must lead the players on and off the ice by example. The ONLY way he can do that is by having not just one career year but consecutive career years. He can be a superstar but he has yet to prove he can be a superstar. He must show he can be an offensive powerhouse and also show he can be sound defensively but he must remember he is small compared to most other NHL players and remember to play smart so he does not get injured AGAIN. Jose Theodore MUST set aside the doubts, in particular from the Toronto media, about the distraction from his family problems. (If the French media has the same doubts, I don't know) He also has yet to prove he can be a consistent superstar. If he can put up at least two consecutive career years then he will prove he is the real deal.

HABitual is offline  
Old
09-27-2003, 08:15 AM
  #6
Mike8
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 11,268
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hosehead
My reasoning is as follows: Most observers will conclude that the Habs will only be as good as Koivu (maybe thats a whole other argument). Koivu can be great at times & is inspirational, however when ranked against the top player on other teams in the league I would say he's not a top tier player.
I would agree, but I think most people here would (and have been) as well. Koivu is one of many pieces of the puzzle in being able to reach contender status I think, but there will need to be several other prospects that either surpass him or reach his level in impact on the team in order for this club to ever reach contending status.

Mike8 is offline  
Old
09-27-2003, 11:51 AM
  #7
habsfansam
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Somewhere dark...?
Country: United Nations
Posts: 660
vCash: 500
"Koivu can be great at times & is inspirational, however when ranked against the top player on other teams in the league I would say he's not a top tier player." --Hosehead


gotta disagree that koivu isn't a top tier player... he's been on a terrible team for years now, and battling injuries. Forsberg couldn't save this team without help and he's probably the best player in the world. Saku's problem is size and skating room... whenever he's on the ice at the world championships he's generally the best player out there. Was it 2000 or 1999 when he had 12 points in 5 or 6 games? On an NHL rink he's at the lower end of a top-tier, but on an international surface he's probably one of the top players in the world.

i do agree that when we get another player who can produce at the same level as Saku then we'll have hit another plateau as a team... if we had another 70 point guy, i think saku would produce more than you've seen. Nobody that small can take a beating of being the prime target of another team every night and look like a top-tier player all the time.

When saku isn't the only focus (for another team) i think you'll see a whole new dimension to his game where he can open things up offensively rather than playing not to lose, or playing purely counterattack hockey.

habsfansam is offline  
Old
09-27-2003, 12:06 PM
  #8
Mike8
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 11,268
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfansam
"Koivu can be great at times & is inspirational, however when ranked against the top player on other teams in the league I would say he's not a top tier player." --Hosehead


gotta disagree that koivu isn't a top tier player... he's been on a terrible team for years now, and battling injuries. Forsberg couldn't save this team without help and he's probably the best player in the world. Saku's problem is size and skating room... whenever he's on the ice at the world championships he's generally the best player out there. Was it 2000 or 1999 when he had 12 points in 5 or 6 games? On an NHL rink he's at the lower end of a top-tier, but on an international surface he's probably one of the top players in the world.

i do agree that when we get another player who can produce at the same level as Saku then we'll have hit another plateau as a team... if we had another 70 point guy, i think saku would produce more than you've seen. Nobody that small can take a beating of being the prime target of another team every night and look like a top-tier player all the time.

When saku isn't the only focus (for another team) i think you'll see a whole new dimension to his game where he can open things up offensively rather than playing not to lose, or playing purely counterattack hockey.
I would agree that we haven't seen the best of Saku, but we have been able to see Koivu's talent levels long enough to guage how he does against and compared to top tier competition. The fact is, Dany Heatley has very little support as well and is simply dominant out there. As is Joe Thornton, who turns career scrubs like Mike Knuble into 20-25 goal scorers.

Sundin consistenty produces top level numbers despite playing with scrubs like Hoglund.

When I think of top tier players, I think of Lidstrom, Pronger, Forsberg, Sakic, Yzerman, Fedorov, Thornton, Bourque, Foote, Blake, Stevens and Heatley is quickly emerging as a top tier player.

These are winners. Players that have gone through it all. Players that have far superior talent to anyone else and can beat you defensively as well as offensively, and either skate around you or skate through you.

Koivu doesn't have this talent level. He's a phenominal talent and certainly a first line center in this league (which speaks volumes of his talent given his slight stature), and can be a first line center on a cup contender in my opinion, but a top tier player he is not.

By the way, I would not put much stock into world championship success. It's a completely different game. Rucinsky and Reichel also excel on the international level, as did Dopita. None have had much success in the NHL.

Mike8 is offline  
Old
09-27-2003, 02:03 PM
  #9
danboulie
Registered User
 
danboulie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,597
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to danboulie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8

Koivu doesn't have this talent level. He's a phenominal talent and certainly a first line center in this league (which speaks volumes of his talent given his slight stature), and can be a first line center on a cup contender in my opinion, but a top tier player he is not.
It sounds an awful lot like you're contradicting yourself here, my good man.
A cup contending team is a top tier team. And centering the first line of a top tier team would have to make you a top tier player.

danboulie is offline  
Old
09-27-2003, 02:10 PM
  #10
Corey
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,300
vCash: 500
Sakic may not be a "powerhouse," but Forsberg is one of the most physically aggressive forwards in the NHL. Not many defensemen can take him down.

Corey is offline  
Old
09-27-2003, 02:22 PM
  #11
caper13
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: cape breton nova scotia
Posts: 392
vCash: 500
good season or not

i think it will all depend on if everyone buys into the defense first system.and i think health will be the deciding factor but i cant waite to see komo and surray play just those to guys will make a big diff. from the sucks we had last year imo. :p

caper13 is offline  
Old
09-27-2003, 02:28 PM
  #12
Mike8
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 11,268
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aphotic
It sounds an awful lot like you're contradicting yourself here, my good man.
A cup contending team is a top tier team. And centering the first line of a top tier team would have to make you a top tier player.
Not at all. Who was NJ's first line center this past season? I would say it was Madden, but he is far from an offensive star, much less top tier player in the league. Heck, he will have trouble scoring 20 goals a year. One could make a case that Gomez was the first line center, but Koivu is leaps and bounds ahead of Gomez in terms of sheer talent, in my opinion.

Being a cup contender doesn't necessarily mean you need top level talents at each and every position. It simply means you have the right chemistry, the right goaltender, and most importantly: the best core group in the league.

Mike8 is offline  
Old
09-27-2003, 03:11 PM
  #13
mcphee
Registered User
 
mcphee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,105
vCash: 500
I think that Koivu is in the middle group of top centers.You can argue that he is anywhere from 12-24 and not be wrong. The size issue holds him down, though strangely he plays his best against Thornton. Big wingers neutralize the size issue, but we have what we have. I don't feel a trade of Koivu would solve anything as our problem isn't who our top player is, it's that we don't have enough of them. If a Perez or Higgins develops into a top ten player at their position, it enhances Koivu as they depend on him less. Lafleur played with Shutt,Lemaire,Mahovlich. While Koivu is not the player Lafleur was, I wonder how Guy would have done with Darby and Savage on his line.

mcphee is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:06 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.