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what would you give me for pronger?

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Old
04-23-2005, 11:53 PM
  #1
milieu bluez
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what would you give me for pronger?

looking for scoring, and draft pics

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04-24-2005, 12:23 AM
  #2
McDonald19
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Isn't he going to be a UFA?

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04-24-2005, 12:48 AM
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Supposedly, last year the Flyers and Blues were working on a mega-deal that fell apart. The Flyers needed a #1 center and a #1 defenseman. It was rumored to have been something like this:

To PHI:
Pavol Demitra
Chris Pronger
Peter Sejna

To STL:
Michal Handzus
Jeff Carter
Joni Pitkanen
Patrick Sharp



Obviously, this type of deal will not be feasible under a cap, but could you imagine? I do not know how close this deal was to becoming a reality, but the Flyers would have had to become the Cup favorites immediately had it gone down. Then again, the source of this rumor was Eklund, so who knows if there is any merit to it.

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04-24-2005, 05:29 AM
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I'll give Pronger about 6 mil, then trade Jovanovski for a cheap forward... however i wont give you anything.

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04-24-2005, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluez_cluez
looking for scoring, and draft pics

depends on how much the salary will cap be,whether the Blues are sending a couple million to the team that trades for him and if he's willing to redo his deal to fit into his new team's payroll(Blues fans were posting he was willing to redo his contract to fit into the Blues payroll).

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04-24-2005, 08:37 AM
  #6
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Pronger is a UFA this summer.

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04-24-2005, 10:38 AM
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Hasn't Pronger and the other big UFAs already signed with the Leafs??? jk

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04-24-2005, 02:14 PM
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How ones wishes this board reflected reality in any way whatsoever!

According to posts here over the last several days, my team (NYI) might have an opportunity to acquire Havlat, Pronger, and Martin Brodeur.

Sorry, fantasy league material. Perhaps - perhaps - based on potential ramifications of a hardcap, Pronger may be moved, but even that is a stretch at this point.

How great players are so devalued around here!

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04-24-2005, 03:07 PM
  #9
Arastiroth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
How ones wishes this board reflected reality in any way whatsoever!

According to posts here over the last several days, my team (NYI) might have an opportunity to acquire Havlat, Pronger, and Martin Brodeur.
And, according to some on this board, you could probably get any of them for two prospects and a first!

Seriously, though, Pronger really can't be traded anymore because he's effectively an UFA at this point. That's not to say he won't re-sign with STL, but he won't have any value until he has a contract (or somehow becomes a RFA) since you can't (obviously) trade a UFA. Even if a CBA is worked out soon, the most I can see is a team giving STL compensation to talk with Pronger like Philly did with Roenick.

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04-24-2005, 03:35 PM
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CREW99AW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
How ones wishes this board reflected reality in any way whatsoever!

According to posts here over the last several days, my team (NYI) might have an opportunity to acquire Havlat, Pronger, and Martin Brodeur.

Sorry, fantasy league material. Perhaps - perhaps - based on potential ramifications of a hardcap, Pronger may be moved, but even that is a stretch at this point.

How great players are so devalued around here!

where's the nyi offer for Pronger?


and if the Blues did still have Pronger's rights for 1 more yr and he didn't fit into their payroll,what's fantasy league material to think they'd want to get something for him before he walked?


Last edited by CREW99AW: 04-24-2005 at 04:58 PM.
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04-24-2005, 04:27 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
Hasn't Pronger and the other big UFAs already signed with the Leafs??? jk
Certainly won't be signing with the Flames.

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04-24-2005, 05:11 PM
  #12
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Originally Posted by Crossroads
Certainly won't be signing with the Flames.
IMO, I do not really care. The Leafs need all the help they can get to actually reach the finals one day.

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04-24-2005, 05:21 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW
where's the nyi offer for Pronger?

I don't know Crew, maybe you'll humor us with a suggestion. Personally, if NYI could afford him salary-wise, I'd offer anyone on NYI's roster or in their system, with the exception of Dipietro. Likewise, if I were St. Louis, I wouldn't even consider for a nanosecond anything that didn't include Dipietro.

The thread starter wants scoring and picks? Start with the choice of any 2 players (sans Dipietro) in NYI's organization and 2-3 #1s. If I were Milbury, I wouldn't think twice, assuming I can get Pronger's name on a contract extension.


and if the Blues did still have Pronger's rights for 1 more yr and he didn't fit into their payroll,what's fantasy league material to think they'd want to get something for him before he walked?

You make rare players like Pronger fit into your payroll. For ultimately, you win with elite players, not the Bruno Gervais' and Ryan Caldwells of the world. What's "fantasy" about it is how some people devalue all players. To be sure, many NHLers are interchangeable. But you don't lightly let players like Pronger walk. You manage your roster to fit them. We're not talking about Adrian Aucoin and Roman Hamrlik here. We're talking about a franchise defenseman.

And while your adherence to budget (on the assumption of a draconian hardcap) is commendable, at some point good teams have to possess good players. If Dipietro was a year away from UFA status, would you be so casual about trading him before he walked? Or would you hope that NYI dedicated itself to re-signing said player? One would hope the latter. I'm guessing most sane Blues fans feel same about Pronger. For even if that team is rebuilding at some point, there are few better players to rebuild around.

St. Louis, by virtue of an arbitrator's decision, lost Scott Stevens, an in-his-prime franchise dman to NJ in 1990. The rest is history. As in 3 Cups for the Devils, 0 for St. Louis. While that decision was out of their control, this one likely isn't. As such, one guesses they will focus on keeping this franchise dman. Or at least not start waving the white flag and looking for the best deal they can get for him. Talk about premature surrender!

Based on your seeming willingness/eagerness to prematurely move this or that star - even an in-his-prime world-class talent - just because he is nearing UFA status or gets paid a lot, one gets the feeling that you see a future NHL of 30 NHL rosters, each comprised of 20 similar players, each making $1.5 mil apiece. Not happening. Even in the hardcap NFL, stars get paid like stars. Pronger won't be making $10 mil per year next contract, but he will still be making a boatload, rest assured, even with a hardcap. Deservedly so. And, there are numerous teams that will pay the price - those that want to win. St. Louis likely being at the top of that list.



Last edited by Trottier: 04-24-2005 at 05:50 PM.
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04-24-2005, 06:00 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier

you posted that you'd read several posts and according to those posts the NYI might have an opportunity to acquire Havlat, Pronger, or Brodeur. I asked what the Pronger offer had been.I didn't propose one.Even if Pronger took a major paycut from his $10m a yr salary,to something in the $7m a yr range,I don't think Wang with Yashin's large salary and a cap, would ok either getting another big contract or giving up the cheap youngsters it would cost to get him.

and I'm aware that Pronger's a franchise player.
He wouldn't be the first franchise player dealt for financial reasons.


Last edited by CREW99AW: 04-24-2005 at 06:40 PM.
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Old
04-24-2005, 06:32 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
St. Louis is a team going nowhere but down. They won't be winning anything in the next 3 or 4 years. MacInnis, Demitra, Mellanby are all gone. The best forwards on their roster under age 33 are Petr Cajanek and Mark Rycroft, and there's nothing in the system. This is a team that has to rebuild, almost from scratch ... IMO they might be the sickest organization in the league when looking ahead the next few years.

If they have Pronger's rights for another year, they'll be a borderline playoff team at best anyway. And then he'll probably be gone at the end of the season, for nothing.

If he's an UFA now, I'd lay money he walks. Teams like NYR and Boston can offer bigger money, and several teams offer a better chance of winning.

If they still own his rights, it makes extremely good sense to move him. Start the rebuilding process with some quality assets, use some of the budget room to sign a few quality mid-level UFAs.

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04-24-2005, 06:44 PM
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It'd be awfully nice if Stan Kroenke one-ups his brother-in-law in St. Louis and spends the cash necessary to get Chris Pronger.

Ah, to dream of having a big three of Pronger, Rob Blake and Adam Foote.

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04-24-2005, 07:31 PM
  #17
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It's true the Blues lack young talent already at the NHL level ( Besides Jackman and Backman) , but our prospect pool is fairly solid. Our prospects don't get alot of hype, but we have some good young players.

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04-24-2005, 08:13 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury
Supposedly, last year the Flyers and Blues were working on a mega-deal that fell apart. The Flyers needed a #1 center and a #1 defenseman. It was rumored to have been something like this:

To PHI:
Pavol Demitra
Chris Pronger
Peter Sejna

To STL:
Michal Handzus
Jeff Carter
Joni Pitkanen
Patrick Sharp



Obviously, this type of deal will not be feasible under a cap, but could you imagine? I do not know how close this deal was to becoming a reality, but the Flyers would have had to become the Cup favorites immediately had it gone down. Then again, the source of this rumor was Eklund, so who knows if there is any merit to it.
I can't believe Clarke would have considered that deal for 1 second considering the contract status of the guys involved and the pending CBA expiration.

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Old
04-24-2005, 09:30 PM
  #19
milieu bluez
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First off, st louis' future isn't the brightest in the league, but we finally have traction in this race. The defense goalies(Schwarz,Cash,Barulin) and d-men (Fitzgerald, Wideman,Polak), i think, will surprise you once they reach the nhl, but yes, up front is weak, very weak.

Pronger's trade to me is more than just dumping money. It is part of a rebuilding process due to the fact that he is the only player of value without a no trade clause. He will be signed next year. St louis will continue to set the record for playoff births, due to our forever bad news bears type of play and loyalty to "kinda" winning, but thats fine. We can continue to be the rodney dangerfield of hockey and alway almost make it, and still love our team for it.


oh, and gobert, i don't think you have anything to offer any way (see your avatar)

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04-24-2005, 10:05 PM
  #20
mercury
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I think that deal was definitely a "home run" type of situation. If the Flyers end up with any kind of cap whatsoever, I could see them going after Pronger. He would immediately make us Cup favorites, IMO. He may cost some serious $, and there is always the injury issue, but he is one of the few defensemen in the league that is a franchise player. Plus, Pronger+Pitkanen for the next 5-6 years would just be out of control.

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04-24-2005, 10:47 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS
If they still own his rights, it makes extremely good sense to move him. Start the rebuilding process with some quality assets....
I've honestly never understood this "abort the entire team" mentality of some when discussing rebuilding. I do not share your assessment of St. Louis - there are about 20 franchises that wish they could be so "sick" as to be a perennial playoff team.

But let's say you are correct and they decide that they are indeed stuck in neutral. You suggest that they rebuild with "some quality assets". Your definition of qulaity assets - let me guess - are 20 y/o newbies with no NHL experience. Mine happens to be a future hall of fame dman who likely has another quality half dozen seasons left in him. Time enough to rebuild with, one would hope.

Just a difference of opinion here with regard to "building blocks". The best teams rebuild on the fly. You want to divest Weight's contract, or Demitra's as they apparently already have done, fine. But you do not have to blow up the entire team.

...Unless your goal is to be the very worst in order to climb back up. A happy medium can be reached. But then again, that is not popular HF logic.

If Pronger absolutely, positively cannot be re-signed, then you look at other options, of course. Assuming he is back on a one-year deal, that gives the team substantial time to get a longer-term deal done. And that, IMO, should/will be their #1 priority. Not rush out to unload him for cheap "futures". Yikes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW
...I don't think Wang with Yashin's large salary and a cap, would ok either getting another big contract or giving up the cheap youngsters it would cost to get him.
Oh I agree, 100%. Which is why you (and I, to a lesser extent) will be left cheering for Bruno and Ryan manning the backline and another infinite number of years of mediocrity or worse on the Island. Enjoy.


Last edited by Trottier: 04-24-2005 at 11:11 PM.
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04-24-2005, 10:56 PM
  #22
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I really love some of these comments, I have one question - Do you guys use your brains when you type out stuff ?

I heard you talk about it being a salary dump, which it would not be for the fact that there is a lot more fat that would be trimmed before you get to his 10 mill, but yet which teams are talking about signing him Avs, Flyers, (not yet mentioned but always mentioned) Leafs - all with payrolls around the Blues and/or FAR from being at a level that would be close to the cap so would these teams not have cap issues too, on top of adding his 10 mill or am I mistaken and the Blues are the only teams subject to a salary cap ?

The second point there is NO WAY St Louis lets him walk for nothing - they gave him a qualifying offer so he is not going anywhere this year and they will do everything to sign him for longer, and if they by chance can't then they are sure going to get more than some of the garbage you guys suggest, get it through your heads - YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET THE BEST D MAN IN THE LEAGUE FOR NOTHING OR SOME GARBAGE TRADE.

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04-24-2005, 11:06 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
I've honestly never understood this "abort the entire team" mentality of some when discussing rebuilding. I do not share your assessment of St. Louis - there are about 20 franchises that wish they could be so "sick" as to be a perennial playoff team.

But let's say you are correct and they decide that they are indeed stuck in neutral. You suggest that they rebuild with "some quality assets". Your definition - let me guess - are 20 y/o newbies with no NHL experience. Mine happens to be a future hall of fame dman who likely has another quality half dozen seasons left in him. Time enough to rebuild, one would hope.

Just a difference of opinion here with regard to "building blocks". The best teams rebuild on the fly. You want to divest Weight's contract, or Demitra's as they apparently already have done, fine. But you do not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

...Unless your goal is to be the very worst in order to climb back up. A happy medium can be reached. But then again, that is NHL logic, not HF popular logic.


Oh I agree, 100%. Which is why you (and I, to a lesser extent) will be left cheering for Bruno and Ryan manning the backline and another infinite number of years of mediocrity or worse on the Island. Enjoy.

I agree with 90% of what you are saying Trottier but the other 10% of me thinks:

If Philly offers you Pitkanen, Carter, Handzus and Sharp, you take it since Pronger is somewhat injury prone and has a 10 million dollar salary. I think your argument about a team building with stars is true but the Blues would be trading Pronger to retain their other stars in Tkachuk and Weight.

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04-24-2005, 11:17 PM
  #24
Trottier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
I agree with 90% of what you are saying Trottier but the other 10% of me thinks:

If Philly offers you Pitkanen, Carter, Handzus and Sharp, you take it since Pronger is somewhat injury prone and has a 10 million dollar salary. I think your argument about a team building with stars is true but the Blues would be trading Pronger to retain their other stars in Tkachuk and Weight.
Jovo, that's fair take. But let me ask you: Were you the Blues GM and were faced with trimming substantial payroll, would you first start with Pronger or with Weight and Tkachuk? In my mind there is no question. Now, admittedly, you will get less in return for those two, but still....

I guess I just place an absolute premium on the player. Moreso than some others here. And, with regard to your offer: if it's March of "next season, St. Louis is middling along and Pronger remains unsigned beyond the season, then I seriously consider the offer. But, it's a matter of timing. Would not do it now.

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04-24-2005, 11:23 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Jovo, that's fair take. But let me ask you: Were you the Blues GM and were faced with trimming substantial payroll, would you first start with Pronger or with Weight and Tkachuk? In my mind there is no question. Now, admittedly, you will get less in return for those two, but still....

I guess I just place an absolute premium on the player. Moreso than some others here. And, with regard to your offer: if it's March of "next season, St. Louis is middling along and Pronger remains unsigned beyond the season, then I seriously consider the offer. But, it's a matter of timing. Would not do it now.
I agree about timing.
And Pronger is definitely a franchise player and one of the rarest specimens to ever play hockey. He has that Lemieux quality in him whereby he is simply extraordinary from size to every aspect of the game. Too bad he often gets injured though, otherwise he could've had a Larry Robinson-esque career.

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