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Joe Sacco named USA's HC for World Championships

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Old
04-16-2013, 09:26 PM
  #126
Bender
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Originally Posted by iceberg View Post
I guess Sacco didn't have anything to do with those 41 wins.


So are you suggesting that perhaps, Sacco isn't coaching up to his abilities this season but could possibly 'bounce back' or something??

We had a very young team last season and made some nice progress and NO, I don't believe Sacco deserves any credit for it. We won 41 times DESPITE his moronic attempts at making Daniel Winnik and Chuck Kobasew top line forwards amongst a whole host of other bad ideas and poor judgement calls.

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Originally Posted by iceberg View Post
I'm confused... last year's record can be used as an indicative of how good this team can be, but that same record can not attest to Sacco being able to make this team a playoff team (not to mention that he has a playoff apperance with the Avs already).

Would someone enlighten me?
Seriously dude, There are dozens of examples and reasons why he's a terrible head coach, most of the fans on this board know and acknowledge this fact, FANS OF OTHER TEAMS want him to sign a lifetime contract with us, that should be sending a few smoke signals your way, at the very least.

If you can't seem to make the difference between :

- Playing guys like Hunwick, RoB & Zanon -> 20 minutes per night = BAD (which Sacco does)
- playing guys like EJ, Hejda and Barrie - 24+ minutes per night = GOOD (which Sacco rarely does)

then how can anyone debate anything with you?

We went 13-4-1 against the East last season, if you take that away, we're left with a piss-poor 64gp 28wins 31losses 5ties, which is not unlike our record this season. Again, Joe Sacco is not a good enough coach to make in-game adjustments to counter the opposition, it's been like this for literally FOUR ****ING YEARS!!! That's why teams that see us often ALWAYS beat us because they know what we're going to be doing on the ice, it's always the same and easy to counter.

I'll ask again, what makes Joe Sacco a good coach?! Someone give me something, anything!!! I've asked this very same question THREE TIMES and gotten a big, fat goose egg.


Last edited by Frenchy: 04-17-2013 at 04:18 PM.
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04-16-2013, 09:58 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by 18007 View Post
He definitely gets an inordinate amount of ****. Some of it justified and some not, but when you are the captain on a sinking (sunk?)ship you gotta realize some heads are going to roll. People have to be held accountable, and it starts from the easiest one to change, the coach.

As to why it doesn't go both ways? I don't know, that is not my argument, it is somebody else's.
Great point.

When the front office does not talk to the media at all or put any effort into presenting itself, the coach becomes the "public" front to the franchise.

Ultimately, I think we all know that LaCroix is the problem here. However the public voice and public result of this is Sacco, his coaching, and the lack of adequate players on full display every night. Unfortunately for Joe, he shoulders the burden of the franchise. I fear this is the norm - Pierre always has instituted silence to the media, Joe Sakic's always been a "quiet" leader, and Joshie's focus is on the Nuggets (as it should be - they are pretty dynamite right now). Sacco is our public perception of the Colorado Avalanche organization. He's the only guy in the camera or on the mike.

Pretty unfair to him if you ask me.


...but he's still a lousy coach.

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04-16-2013, 10:19 PM
  #128
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The most indicting thing for Sacco is he simply hasn't gotten the team to play better as a team since his first season. They overachieved his first season, then sucked the next, and have never really raised their level of play in the last three years.

They're still making the same mistakes. He's still implementing an uber aggressive forecheck system which routinely sends at least two forecheckers in deep, leaving the opposition free reign through the neutral zone if they can move the puck quickly, and this puts tremendous amounts of pressure on the D, and puts everyone on their heels scrambling to get back and stay in position during sustained pressure afterwards.

His system requires them to be performing at 100% effort, and focus, and this simply is not sustainable. When it doesn't work, it makes it very easy for opposing teams. Whether it's blowing out the score, staying in games when the Avs are scoring too, or coming back in games when the Avs have the lead. The record really stands for itself, and Sacco simply should have had better results at some point after his first season.

Plus most of the top guys in his tenure except for Duchene (until this year and mostly due to his off ice routine and PAP) have underperformed. Stastny, Jones, EJ, etc. O'Reilly and Landy are very low maintence, and are performing at the level expected.

It's just not working, and there's simply no rationale to keep him past this season. No one has even tried to come up with a legitimate one frankly. Even if this wasn't his fault, they need a new voice, style, system, or whatever. Just something new guiding this team, because they can't rely on a backup goaltender to have the pulse on this team and know when it needs a wakeup call, and get the message through. Sacco's had his chance, and finishing near dead last again in his 4th season just won't cut it.


Last edited by Foppa2118: 04-16-2013 at 10:28 PM.
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Old
04-16-2013, 10:43 PM
  #129
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@Bender

I laugh at a bunch of your posts too. Come on, you just compared Parenteau to McClement... lol

Quote:
So are you suggesting that perhaps, Sacco isn't coaching up to his abilities this season but could possibly 'bounce back' or something??
I'm pretty sure that if you look carefully, you will find out a lot of coaches that have had bad seasons and have bounced back the year after.

I would also be willing to bet that we will find that a lot of coaches that are having sucess RIGHT NOW, have been fired before.

Quote:
We had a very young team last season and made some nice progress and NO, I don't believe Sacco deserves any credit for it. We won 41 times DESPITE his moronic attempts at making Daniel Winnik and Chuck Kobasew top line forwards amongst a whole host of other bad ideas and poor judgement calls.
Why i'm not surprised by this??? This is how it goes around here:

We have a good game = Player did it despite Sacco
We have a bad game = It's because of Sacco

Last year, he somehow managed to make that team competitive even with a crap Duchene.

If he gave a lot of ice time to guys like Winnick and Kobasew is because he didn't have a lof of opitions. Even this year the guy had to use Palushaj because none of Jones or Hejduk were getting the job done.

Quote:
Seriously dude, if you're not really WATCHING the games, then no one here can help you. There are dozens of examples and reasons why he's a terrible head coach, most of the fans on this board know and acknowledge this fact, FANS OF OTHER TEAMS want him to sign a lifetime contract with us, that should be sending a few smoke signals your way, at the very least.

If you can't seem to make the difference between :

- Playing guys like Hunwick, RoB & Zanon -> 20 minutes per night = BAD (which Sacco does)
- playing guys like EJ, Hejda and Barrie - 24+ minutes per night = GOOD (which Sacco rarely does)

then how can anyone debate anything with you?
I've seen every game this year, and most games last year, and from my point of view none of the Dmen really standed out this year, none. Whenever EJ played a good game Sacco gave him more ice time.

Funny thing is that Hunwick and Wilson are the only current defensemen on the + side of +/-. And you can't say Hunwick has been sheltered.

Maybe the coaching staff is not just handing ice time based on name alone.

Quote:
We went 13-4-1 against the East last season, if you take that away, we're left with a piss-poor 64gp 28wins 31losses 5ties, which is not unlike our record this season. Again, Joe Sacco is not a good enough coach to make in-game adjustments to counter the opposition, it's been like this for literally FOUR ****ING YEARS!!! That's why teams that see us often ALWAYS beat us because they know what we're going to be doing on the ice, it's always the same and easy to counter.
I wonder if this team is as good as you seem to think they are. Who knows, maybe they overachived last year?

Or maybe you are right, maybe he is THAT bad. As the crazy dude that was here before pointed out, the year he went to the playoff he found a quasi system already in place.

Quote:
I'll ask again, what makes Joe Sacco a good coach?! Someone give me something, anything!!! I've asked this very same question THREE TIMES and gotten a big, fat goose egg.
I know how you feel, not always we get the answers we are looking for.

As a passionate Avs fan, i really hope you are right about your evaluations and with your conspiration theory and **** though.


Last edited by Frenchy: 04-17-2013 at 04:21 PM.
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Old
04-16-2013, 10:46 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
The most indicting thing for Sacco is he simply hasn't gotten the team to play better as a team since his first season. They overachieved his first season, then sucked the next, and have never really raised their level of play in the last three years.

They're still making the same mistakes. He's still implementing an uber aggressive forecheck system which routinely sends at least two forecheckers in deep, leaving the opposition free reign through the neutral zone if they can move the puck quickly, and this puts tremendous amounts of pressure on the D, and puts everyone on their heels scrambling to get back and stay in position during sustained pressure afterwards.

His system requires them to be performing at 100% effort, and focus, and this simply is not sustainable. When it doesn't work, it makes it very easy for opposing teams. Whether it's blowing out the score, staying in games when the Avs are scoring too, or coming back in games when the Avs have the lead. The record really stands for itself, and Sacco simply should have had better results at some point after his first season.

Plus most of the top guys in his tenure except for Duchene (until this year and mostly due to his off ice routine and PAP) have underperformed. Stastny, Jones, EJ, etc. O'Reilly and Landy are very low maintence, and are performing at the level expected.

It's just not working, and there's simply no rationale to keep him past this season. No one has even tried to come up with a legitimate one frankly. Even if this wasn't his fault, they need a new voice, style, system, or whatever. Just something new guiding this team, because they can't rely on a backup goaltender to have the pulse on this team and know when it needs a wakeup call, and get the message through. Sacco's had his chance, and finishing near dead last again in his 4th season just won't cut it.
Great post Foppa.

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04-16-2013, 10:58 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
This is where:


If you think there is more talent on the US World Championship squads, go back and look at their rosters. Players like Yan Stastny, Clay Wilson, Mike Komisarek, Mike Brown, Chris Butler, Justin Braun, Joey Crabb, JT Brown, Jim Slater.... have all made the team in the last 2 years.
I don't know how you put two and two together there, I said Pierre Lacroix is likely looking to give him this last chance to re-evaluate him. Does it say Lacroix has stuff to do with Team USA? Didn't think so

2012 Team USA Roster
Jeff Petry
Jack Johnson
Cam Fowler
Alex Goligoski
Bobby Ryan
Ryan Lasch
Cam Atkinson
Joey Crabb
Justin Abdelkader
Jim Slater
Justin Braun
Kyle Okposo
J.T. Brown
Craig Smith
Paul Stastny
Justin Faulk
Chris Butler
Patrick Dwyer
Nate Thompson
Kyle Palmieri
Max Pacioretty

Not sure about you, but that's a pretty darn good roster to have at your disposal, especially the defense

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04-16-2013, 11:31 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Bender View Post
I'll ask again, what makes Joe Sacco a good coach?! Someone give me something, anything!!! I've asked this very same question THREE TIMES and gotten a big, fat goose egg.
He's probably a better coach than we give him credit for after four years of putting up with him.

My impression is he is more suited to coach really young teams that are just beginning to develop. His simple game plan, ease of temperament, less demanding approach to coaching is probably good for the initial phases of building a team.

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04-16-2013, 11:37 PM
  #133
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I know iceberg has a confrontational posting style, and lots of us have been jumping down each others throats at slight provocation in many threads (though certainly not everyone is guilty of this) and I think that probably has to do with the frustrating season. However with all the arguing going on here I don't even think you guys disagree with him on that many points.

He agrees with everyone else that Sacco should be gone. I think most of us would also agree that the nepotistic and insular nature of our organization is a problem. Most of us would also agree that it's frustrating that there's no transparency or accountability for front office. I think where things differ are in evaluations of certain players potentials, and exactly where different proportions of the blame for this teams failures lie. Some differences sure but certainly not worth the multi-page, multi-thread, multi-day ongoing back and forth it seems to have become.

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04-17-2013, 08:44 AM
  #134
Bender
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Originally Posted by iceberg View Post
I laugh at a bunch of your posts too. Come on, you just compared Parenteau to McClement... lol

I'm pretty sure that if you look carefully, you will find out a lot of coaches that have had bad seasons and have bounced back the year after.

I would also be willing to bet that we will find that a lot of coaches that are having sucess RIGHT NOW, have been fired before.

Why i'm not surprised by this??? This is how it goes around here:

We have a good game = Player did it despite Sacco
We have a bad game = It's because of Sacco

Last year, he somehow managed to make that team competitive even with a crap Duchene.

If he gave a lot of ice time to guys like Winnick and Kobasew is because he didn't have a lof of opitions. Even this year the guy had to use Palushaj because none of Jones or Hejduk were getting the job done.

I've seen every game this year, and most games last year, and from my point of view none of the Dmen really standed out this year, none. Whenever EJ played a good game Sacco gave him more ice time.

Funny thing is that Hunwick and Wilson are the only current defensemen on the + side of +/-. And you can't say Hunwick has been sheltered.

Maybe the coaching staff is not just handing ice time based on name alone.

I wonder if this team is as good as you seem to think they are. Who knows, maybe they overachived last year?

Or maybe you are right, maybe he is THAT bad. As the crazy dude that was here before pointed out, the year he went to the playoff he found a quasi system already in place.

I know how you feel, not always we get the answers we are looking for.

As a passionate Avs fan, i really hope you are right about your evaluations and with your conspiration theory and **** though.
How exactly did I compare McClement with Parenteau? I simply mentioned that one was on our team last year and the other is on our team this year. If I had the choice between either, I would take Parenteau's offense over whatever slight boost McClement gives us on defense/PK any day.

Yeah, clearly I'm comparing one with the other.

As far as the 2nd part, there IS such a thing as making bad decisions and it affects the whole roster. I remember after Barrie got scratched and the team started to flounder after the big win against Chicago, about three weeks later, Barrie was inserted BACK into the lineup and A.Basin posted something like "Barrie better be paired up with Hejda and given big minutes or else Sacco is a complete moron" or something to that effect. Barrie was paired up with Zanon and given less than 20 minutes of icetime. I wasn't surprised though.

You know there have been MANY nights where Hunwick or Zanon LEAD our D-men in icetime?!? Any way you slice it, that's not a good recipe for success.

It's stuff like THAT, that makes him an idiot and a bad coach. He's NOT giving us the very best chance to win on a nightly basis.

Please mark my words, there will be a new Avalanche coach (hopefully one who's not clueless) and players like Hunwick & Zanon won't break the 18 minute mark on a nightly basis. Sacco should have been riding EJ, Hejda and Barrie and given them each 23-26 minutes of icetime per night, with the remaining time split between Elliott, SoB, Hunwick and Zanon.

Yes, I do believe that this team can be much better than they've shown this season. I said at the beginning of the year that the Avs were a 'bubble team' to make the playoffs and I believe that's where they SHOULD be.

But it's not like I'm surprised this happened, I knew it would, the day he signed his 2 year contract extension:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=111

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Originally Posted by iceberg View Post
Great post Foppa.
Ah...so he makes a post essentially saying the same thing I'm saying and it's a great post?

His system requires them to be performing at 100% effort, and focus, and this simply is not sustainable. When it doesn't work, it makes it very easy for opposing teams.

Great post, Foppa!

For the most part, these players are underperforming and when you mix that in with a complete lack of any adjustment to the good 'ole dump & chase that the other team EXPECTS every night, you have this result.

Horrible post, Bender...start making some sense!!!


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04-17-2013, 08:49 AM
  #135
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Horrible post, Bender...start making some sense!!!

dude

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04-17-2013, 08:54 AM
  #136
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Sacco May be the best coach ever, but not here with our players and system. Maybe Philly hires him and they go on to win the cup ten years in a row.. phillys just an example by the way.

What's obviously evident is that regardless of him as a coach, we ain't getting it done with him.

Someone has to take the blame and whether it his fault or not, he's sort of the most logical step.

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04-17-2013, 09:01 AM
  #137
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How exactly did I compare McClement with Parenteau? I simply mentioned that one was on our team last year and the other is on our team this year. If I had the choice between either, I would take Parenteau's offense over whatever slight boost McClement gives us on defense/PK any day.

Yeah, clearly I'm comparing one with the other.

As far as the 2nd part, there IS such a thing as making bad decisions and it affects the whole roster. I remember after Barrie got scratched and the team started to flounder after the big win against Chicago, about three weeks later, Barrie was inserted BACK into the lineup and A.Basin posted something like "Barrie better be paired up with Hejda and given big minutes or else Sacco is a complete moron" or something to that effect. Barrie was paired up with Zanon and given less than 20 minutes of icetime. I wasn't surprised though.

You know there have been MANY nights where Hunwick or Zanon LEAD our D-men in icetime?!? Any way you slice it, that's not a good recipe for success.

It's stuff like THAT, that makes him an idiot and a bad coach. He's NOT giving us the very best chance to win on a nightly basis.

Please mark my words, there will be a new Avalanche coach (hopefully one who's not clueless) and players like Hunwick & Zanon won't break the 18 minute mark on a nightly basis. Sacco should have been riding EJ, Hejda and Barrie and given them each 23-26 minutes of icetime per night, with the remaining time split between Elliott, SoB, Hunwick and Zanon.

Yes, I do believe that this team can be much better than they've shown this season. I said at the beginning of the year that the Avs were a 'bubble team' to make the playoffs and I believe that's where they SHOULD be.

But it's not like I'm surprised this happened, I knew it would, the day he signed his 2 year contract extension:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=111



Ah...so he makes a post essentially saying the same thing I'm saying and it's a great post?

His system requires them to be performing at 100% effort, and focus, and this simply is not sustainable. When it doesn't work, it makes it very easy for opposing teams.

Great post, Foppa!

For the most part, these players are underperforming and when you mix that in with a complete lack of any adjustment to the good 'ole dump & chase that the other team EXPECTS every night, you have this result.

Horrible post, Bender...start making some sense!!!

This. Maybe Sacco was given mission to fail this year and that's why he's overplaying those guys. It's worked. We are second last.

The biggest thing is of course, that our game plan is just as bad as It was couple years ago. It doesn't look like players improved as a team. Thank god we got moved out of our division(Which might save Sacco's job, :facepalm). We were getting crushed, which is kinda ridiculous, because Edmonton/Calgary and Minnesota are not THAT TOUGH. There's no defense for Sacco having such a bad record against this division.

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04-17-2013, 09:21 AM
  #138
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Well, I'm sure the Team USA players will have a good time, regardless of the result. Big "player's coach" with little to no accountability on his roster. Some nice, slack practices coming up too. The guys will have a great time and like him a lot, but they will suck.

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04-17-2013, 09:26 AM
  #139
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Will they like him enough to want to sign in Colorado?

We can sign them before firing Sacco.

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04-17-2013, 09:36 AM
  #140
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Will they like him enough to want to sign in Colorado?

We can sign them before firing Sacco.
Haha! Good plan!

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04-17-2013, 09:39 AM
  #141
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Solid idea. We recruit them to play with Sacco, then kick Sacco to the curb.

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04-17-2013, 09:44 AM
  #142
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Well, I'm sure the Team USA players will have a good time, regardless of the result. Big "player's coach" with little to no accountability on his roster. Some nice, slack practices coming up too. The guys will have a great time and like him a lot, but they will suck.
Exactly. I've always found it strange that a few people argued Sacco must be a good coach because the players like him. I don't want the players to like him. I want them to respect him and be thankful for how he had helped them develop later.

I loved how O'Reilly came up with new ideas to practice things last year but I always hated that a player felt it was necessary in the first place.

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04-17-2013, 10:12 AM
  #143
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Exactly. I've always found it strange that a few people argued Sacco must be a good coach because the players like him. I don't want the players to like him. I want them to respect him and be thankful for how he had helped them develop later.

I loved how O'Reilly came up with new ideas to practice things last year but I always hated that a player felt it was necessary in the first place.
Trust me you need to work on yourself and your skills even outside of the official practice sessions if you want to be successful.

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04-17-2013, 10:24 AM
  #144
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Trust me you need to work on yourself and your skills even outside of the official practice sessions if you want to be successful.
Yeah, that's a good point.

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04-17-2013, 10:52 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by dahrougem2 View Post
I don't know how you put two and two together there, I said Pierre Lacroix is likely looking to give him this last chance to re-evaluate him. Does it say Lacroix has stuff to do with Team USA? Didn't think so

2012 Team USA Roster
Jeff Petry
Jack Johnson
Cam Fowler
Alex Goligoski
Bobby Ryan
Ryan Lasch
Cam Atkinson
Joey Crabb
Justin Abdelkader
Jim Slater
Justin Braun
Kyle Okposo
J.T. Brown
Craig Smith
Paul Stastny
Justin Faulk
Chris Butler
Patrick Dwyer
Nate Thompson
Kyle Palmieri
Max Pacioretty

Not sure about you, but that's a pretty darn good roster to have at your disposal, especially the defense
That offense is terrible... a total one line team Pacioretty-Stastny-Ryan. Defense is decent at best JJ is the best defender and he is really a #3 with serious holes in his defensive game. Fowler is a #3, Faulk is a 3/4, the rest are bottom pairing players. Not a single top pairing guy in the group. I'd take the Avs roster over that one every game, but teams from around the world tend to have lesser rosters than that (excluding Canada, Russia, and Sweden).

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04-17-2013, 11:48 AM
  #146
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Colorado Avalanche Team PK - 2011-12 - 83% - 12th league wide
Colorado Avalanche Team PK - 2012-13 - 80.9% - 18th league wide

I'll take Parenteau over JMac any day of the week. I haven't seen the PK as being such a huge issue this season as much as overall team play, defensive play and goaltending hasn't been as good as last year.
Why do you have to choose between Parenteau and McClement? The point I was trying to make isn't that McClement is more valuable to the team, it's that he did have value to the team in an important area that is noticeably worse than last year (in terms of number of goals allowed).

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04-17-2013, 11:53 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
Why do you have to choose between Parenteau and McClement? The point I was trying to make isn't that McClement is more valuable to the team, it's that he did have value to the team in an important area that is noticeably worse than last year (in terms of number of goals allowed).
The PK numbers would be better with a full season of ROR playing on it. He has played maybe 20 games on the PK, and I'm sure our numbers have been way better since that point... probably around that 83% range.

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04-17-2013, 01:44 PM
  #148
avsman
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8 year Sacco extension coming shortly

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04-17-2013, 02:03 PM
  #149
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8 year Sacco extension coming shortly
I will start working on the bronze Sacco statue for outside the Pepsi Center.

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04-17-2013, 02:05 PM
  #150
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All context and things working against him considered, Joe Sacco is still an awful coach. At least with the other guys we like to **** on here, EJ, Varly, Stastny, Dutchy last year, Jones, there's some good things when everything's not working against them, Sacco at his absolute very best just tells his players to go out, play hard, and does what little he can to stay out of their way.

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