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Old
08-16-2013, 09:34 PM
  #176
JM358
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I'm one of those Duck/Dodger fans. I try to stay quiet on baseball on here for the most part.

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08-16-2013, 10:19 PM
  #177
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you think things are bad now...
Weaver and Wilson are both over 30, and there is NOTHING pitching wise in the system, as of yet that looks like a TOTR starter....and the angels will be paying Pujols and Hamilton insane money in the meantime, and because of the BS they pulled with Trout last summer, he is going to command 100% market value.

imagine Trout as a UFA at 26/27 and what he will get, and the angels did him wrong by not giving him a bigger raise for the coming season. he will take them to the cleaners, or go to the yankees for 30 mil per year

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08-17-2013, 12:04 PM
  #178
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you think things are bad now...
Weaver and Wilson are both over 30, and there is NOTHING pitching wise in the system, as of yet that looks like a TOTR starter....and the angels will be paying Pujols and Hamilton insane money in the meantime, and because of the BS they pulled with Trout last summer, he is going to command 100% market value.

imagine Trout as a UFA at 26/27 and what he will get, and the angels did him wrong by not giving him a bigger raise for the coming season. he will take them to the cleaners, or go to the yankees for 30 mil per year
Ummm... the Angels just followed the CBA for Trout. Don't hate the Angels, hate Trout's agent for not asking for way more money to begin with. This is like Bobby Ryan scoring 30 goals in this second year of his ELC and then asking for a raise? WTF? Ummm... no and point to the CBA.

As for pitching, they need quality depth in the bullpen. When 3/5th's of your starting rotation goes down to injuries, not many teams can overcome that. For example, if the Ducks' blue line loses four out of its six starters, then we would be hurting a lot, especially if two of those four injured defensemen are two out of our top three defensemen. Sure, we got Vatanen and Lindholm, but there's two more spots to fill with. We would be ransacked, fer sure!

Hopefully, that makes some sense.

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08-18-2013, 04:57 PM
  #179
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Trout update? Twisted ankle?

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08-18-2013, 10:50 PM
  #180
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Trout update? Twisted ankle?
The initial read was hamstring. Yup, just looked it up. Right hamstring tightness.

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08-19-2013, 04:01 AM
  #181
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The initial read was hamstring. Yup, just looked it up. Right hamstring tightness.
Meh. The season is gone, rest him for the rest of the way. The worse we go, the better. Even the Astros own us...

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08-19-2013, 06:35 PM
  #182
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Pujols done for the season...


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12-11-2013, 10:37 AM
  #183
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Thought I'd bump this.

TumbNNNOOOOO!!!!!!

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12-11-2013, 10:51 AM
  #184
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Ugh this team

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12-11-2013, 11:05 AM
  #185
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I don't know how you guys don't like this trade. This trade is awesome. One of the better pitching prospects in baseball, and another guy who can step into the pitching staff as a number 4 right now (and has possibly #2 potential). All this for a guy who hits an average under .250, and takes very few walks. Love this deal, arguably Dipoto's best move ever.

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12-11-2013, 11:57 AM
  #186
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I don't know how you guys don't like this trade. This trade is awesome. One of the better pitching prospects in baseball, and another guy who can step into the pitching staff as a number 4 right now (and has possibly #2 potential). All this for a guy who hits an average under .250, and takes very few walks. Love this deal, arguably Dipoto's best move ever.
While I don't LOVE this deal, because Skaggs had some real question marks at the end of last season, I understand why it was made and agree that teams rarely win with players like Trumbo. Dipoto seems to have a real hard on for Skaggs.

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12-11-2013, 12:09 PM
  #187
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Trumbo like every player the Angels trade away or give up to free agency will go on to be amazing on another team. He's going to be homerun champ next season.

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12-11-2013, 01:40 PM
  #188
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Trumbo is terrible. I would have been happy getting one of those guys back, much less two. They'll probably sign Matt garza now and the rotation makeover will be somewhat complete.

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12-11-2013, 01:59 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by DarthYenik View Post
Trumbo like every player the Angels trade away or give up to free agency will go on to be amazing on another team. He's going to be homerun champ next season.
He may hit 50 home runs, but he'll still have an on-base percentage of under .300, so who cares?

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12-11-2013, 07:49 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Sean Garrity View Post
While I don't LOVE this deal, because Skaggs had some real question marks at the end of last season, I understand why it was made and agree that teams rarely win with players like Trumbo. Dipoto seems to have a real hard on for Skaggs.
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Originally Posted by DarthYenik View Post
Trumbo like every player the Angels trade away or give up to free agency will go on to be amazing on another team. He's going to be homerun champ next season.
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Originally Posted by Static View Post
Trumbo is terrible. I would have been happy getting one of those guys back, much less two. They'll probably sign Matt garza now and the rotation makeover will be somewhat complete.
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Originally Posted by 666Ducks666 View Post
He may hit 50 home runs, but he'll still have an on-base percentage of under .300, so who cares?
Trumbo is still reaching his prime. His walk rate has increased every year in the MLB's. He's the Angel's best run producer with 100 RBI's, three more than Trout. If that's terrible, then I'll take terrible 100% of the time! Plus, he's always loved playing for his hometown team, the Angels.

But it's a numbers game. Not what you're thinking, but I'll give this...

TeamRuns ScoredRuns AllowedDifferential
Oakland767625+142
Texas730636+94
Angels733736-4

The Angel's front office has been limited fiscally this off-season. So bad that we had to not tender our 5/6th starter, long reliever Jerome Williams. We also had to trade away center fielder (CF) Peter Borjous to acquire veteran 3B David Freese. Borjous is the only player that can force Trout to not play center field, that's how good Borjous is defensively. We needed Freese's bat at 3B, probably because we were going to trade away either Trumbo or 2B Kendrick. I'm sad to see Fleet Pete go.

The only player the Angels have signed is a side arm reliever Smith, to off-set the loss of Williams. I think Williams would have costed $8 mil while Smith is $5 mil a year for three years.

Anyhow, from the table above, The Angels have a negative differential. Offense wasn't the problem. It's preventing the other team from scoring is the huge problem. We lost 13.6% of our runs with Trumbo departing, but picked up two young, cost controlled left handed pitchers for the next five years. Skaggs had trouble last year at the MLB level, but he's only 22 years old. Santiago is a solid lefty and Chicago could afford to move in order to get a starting center fielder. Skaggs and Santiago project to be starting pitching players who are both left handed. You reduce the number of runs allowed onto you by improving your pitching. In that process, the Angels were able to remove an extra $4 million off the books.

Right now, it's estimated that the Angels now have about $20 million to play with. When they started out, they virtually had no money at all since we overspent it on Pujols and Hamilton as well as the contracts on CJ Wilson and Weaver. No one really complains about the latter two. That $20 mil can net the Angels another starting pitcher and a bat for a DH/1B.

So far...
Subtractions
SP/RP Williams
CF Borjous
LF/1B Trumbo

Additions
RP Smith
3B Freese
SP Skaggs (Lefty)
SP Santiago (Lefty)
+$20 Million

A little background on Skaggs... He was one of four prospects sent to Arizona for Dan Haren when Dipoto was their GM. Corbin was another left handed pitching prospect included in that deal. Last season, Corbin, at age 24, became an all-star at the MLB level. Skaggs was struggling at the MLB level last season (he changed his mechanics which messed up his velocity), so he became a bit expendable. No way would the DBacks give up Corbin, but Cahill was a possibility, but that also came with a price tag. Skaggs and Santiago are cost controlled players for the next five years (six for Skaggs) and both are lefties. If anything, Dipoto has a stiffy for lefties as he's made a trade for two lefties again, but in an Angels uni.

If the Angels make a run for Garza or Tanaka, then Santiago can fill the role that Jerome Williams did which is be a sixth starter/long reliever. Or if Skaggs still struggles, then Skaggs goes down to AAA. Either way, it adds depth at pitching that the Angels were sorely lacking.

RHP Weaver
LHP Wilson
RHP Richards
LHP Santiago
LHP Skaggs

It's odd, but that may be one too many southpaws for me. Now, if we insert Garza/Tanaka, then we have

RHP Weaver
LHP Wilson
RPH Garza/Tanaka
RHP Richards
LHP Santiago/Skaggs

Now, that's a very good move to improve runs allowed.

As for the offense, rookie Kole Calhoun provided a spark. In 58 games with the big club, Kole hit .282 BA, .347 OBP, .462 SLG with 8 HRs, 32 RBIs and 21 walks. Suppose you multiply that amount by 2.5 to that output (Trumbo appeared in 159 games last year) and we have 20 Hrs, 80 RBIs, and 52 walks. So the next gain is 48 RBIs. We can still sign another bat to be DH/1B. Or we can hope prospect 1B/DH CJ Cron can fill in as he's got the affinity to hit for power as well.

The emergence of Cahloun gave the Angels a way to parlay for pitching via Trumbo. Having CJ Cron in the system also was a factor as he projects to be a DH at the MLB level, while playing some 1B. Trumbo did good here in Anaheim, but because we went after Hamilton instead of pitching last year, it forced the Angels' had to trade away Trumbo for pitching needed last year.

Trumbo wasn't as terrible as the narrative is being spelled out. It's the fact the Angels are lacking in the pitching department in a very, very big way that made Trumbo the odd man out. The team needs a positive differential. You can't necessarily get that with more hitting (seeing we hit in more runs than the Rangers above us), but you can definitely get that with better pitching. Winning 1 - 0 or 2 - 0 is better than losing 10 - 9.

Holy crap. I just previewed the post. Sorry about it being sooooooo long.

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Old
12-11-2013, 07:55 PM
  #191
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It's a good trade. Trumbo sucks. .294 OBP is pathetic. We got two lefties with great upside back for that. Fantastic move

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12-11-2013, 08:24 PM
  #192
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as an A's fan i must say i'm happy with this trade

trumbo always killed the A's with his bat. he was probably my favorite player on the angels

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12-12-2013, 07:10 PM
  #193
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It's a good trade. Trumbo sucks. .294 OBP is pathetic. We got two lefties with great upside back for that. Fantastic move
Trumbo lead the team with 100 RBI's. He also lead the team in HR's with 34.

Rank Player HR
1Trumbo34
2Trout27
3Hamilton21
4Pujols17

Again, once OBP stat was set upon Trumbo after his rookie year in the MLB's, he's improved his walk rate to get on base for the past three years.

To say Trumbo sucks while he lead the team in RBI's and HR's is like saying Perry sucks because he sucks at faceoffs. It would be great if Trumbo improved his OBP, but the fact his primary goal is to drive in runs as he's the fifth or sixth hitter, then he's doing his job in that respect. This past season, he was still able to put up hits and homers after all-star break. He struggled two seasons ago after all-star break. And as bad as his OBP is, no one else did more damage offensively to bring in more runs than Trumbo.

Another counter to Trumbo sucks... the haul we got for Trumbo were two young, starting pitchers who are both left handed with high potential as they're already at the cusp of being MLB regulars.

So either Trumbo sucks and we got nothing to trade for or Trumbo is a valuable asset that was able to bring in possibly two starting left handed pitchers with potential to do more. It can't be both.

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12-12-2013, 08:58 PM
  #194
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I'm one of those Duck/Dodger fans. I try to stay quiet on baseball on here for the most part.
same here.

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12-12-2013, 10:42 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Hockey Duckie View Post
Trumbo lead the team with 100 RBI's. He also lead the team in HR's with 34.

Rank Player HR
1Trumbo34
2Trout27
3Hamilton21
4Pujols17

Again, once OBP stat was set upon Trumbo after his rookie year in the MLB's, he's improved his walk rate to get on base for the past three years.

To say Trumbo sucks while he lead the team in RBI's and HR's is like saying Perry sucks because he sucks at faceoffs. It would be great if Trumbo improved his OBP, but the fact his primary goal is to drive in runs as he's the fifth or sixth hitter, then he's doing his job in that respect. This past season, he was still able to put up hits and homers after all-star break. He struggled two seasons ago after all-star break. And as bad as his OBP is, no one else did more damage offensively to bring in more runs than Trumbo.

Another counter to Trumbo sucks... the haul we got for Trumbo were two young, starting pitchers who are both left handed with high potential as they're already at the cusp of being MLB regulars.

So either Trumbo sucks and we got nothing to trade for or Trumbo is a valuable asset that was able to bring in possibly two starting left handed pitchers with potential to do more. It can't be both.
RBIs is such a meaningless stat to base the skill level of a hitter. Trumbo had more RBIs than Mike Trout. Does that mean anything? The worst thing a hitter can do in baseball is make an out, and Trumbo makes outs better than any regular the Angels have employed other than Vernon Wells. His one good trait, raw power, is mitigated by his utter incompetence in any other of the five tools save arm power. He can't play defense, he can't run, and his eye at the plate is awful.

He is damn near a zero at the plate considering how little he gets on base. A player who gets on base at a .330 clip with 20 HRs creates more runs than Trumbo at 35 Hrs and a sub .300 OBP. He's terrible.

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12-13-2013, 01:46 AM
  #196
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RBIs is such a meaningless stat to base the skill level of a hitter. Trumbo had more RBIs than Mike Trout. Does that mean anything? The worst thing a hitter can do in baseball is make an out, and Trumbo makes outs better than any regular the Angels have employed other than Vernon Wells. His one good trait, raw power, is mitigated by his utter incompetence in any other of the five tools save arm power. He can't play defense, he can't run, and his eye at the plate is awful.

He is damn near a zero at the plate considering how little he gets on base. A player who gets on base at a .330 clip with 20 HRs creates more runs than Trumbo at 35 Hrs and a sub .300 OBP. He's terrible.
This. He's a 2 WAR player. Average to below average regular. He also doesn't really have a position, and the Diamondbacks are going to figure that out fast. He can't be hidden at DH next year. Moving to a hitter's park will help his power even more, but he's 28, so he is what he is. His plate discipline isn't going to improve magically at this age. He'll probably hit 35-40 bombs next year, but he still won't be a valuable player because he makes outs over 70% of the time.

Dude made more outs than Hamilton last year. That's pretty hard to do. Angels absolutely made the right move here. Kevin Towers screwed the pooch on this one big time. Him and Ruben Amaro are the only GM's that still believe in "RBIZZZZ" and "GRIT". I actually feel bad for Diamondbacks fans. Adam Eaton>>Trumbo, and they had to give up Skaggs as well. They didn't even improve their outfield with this trade.

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12-13-2013, 02:06 AM
  #197
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RBIs is such a meaningless stat to base the skill level of a hitter. Trumbo had more RBIs than Mike Trout. Does that mean anything? The worst thing a hitter can do in baseball is make an out, and Trumbo makes outs better than any regular the Angels have employed other than Vernon Wells. His one good trait, raw power, is mitigated by his utter incompetence in any other of the five tools save arm power. He can't play defense, he can't run, and his eye at the plate is awful.

He is damn near a zero at the plate considering how little he gets on base. A player who gets on base at a .330 clip with 20 HRs creates more runs than Trumbo at 35 Hrs and a sub .300 OBP. He's terrible.
RBI is meaningless if you're a table setter. For power hitters, like Trumbo, it matters. SLG has him third on the team, but his OBP lowers his overall offensive production (OPS). Using 200 plate appearances as a qualified starting point, Trumbo is fourth in OPS (which is OBP + SLG), behind Trout, Kendrick, and Pujols. Rookie Calhoun had 195 plate appearances, but if included would rank 2nd between Trout and Kendrick - which made Trumbo expendable.

Two seasons ago (2012) was Trumbo's second year in the MLB's and his best with a slash line of .268/.317/.491/.808 (Avg/OBP/SLG/OPS). This year it's .238/.294/.453/.747. Despite the dip, he brought home five more runs this past season compared to 2012. As a power hitter, his job is to slug in runs. After Trumbo, there are a bunch of slap single happy hitters. If Trumbo were a more disciplined hitter, then there's no way in hell we trade him nor would we had to go and sign Hamilton last season.

Trumbo's young to the MLB's. This is his third season in the MLB's as a power hitter. If Trumbo is able to reach his 2012 stats with his power of last season, then Arizona's got an above average power producing bat. And considering that Trumbo's walk rate has improved for the past three years, says at least he's improving. But his one good trait, raw power, is quite a valuable trait and quantifiable with SLG and OPS.

Which would you rather have? Trumbo and his contract or Hamilton and his contract? They're virtually similar players, but Trumbo produced better last year. No one's going to take on Hamilton's contract. Hambone was usually placed in front of Trumbo as a power hitter, but drove in 30 less runs than Trumbo. And yet Hambone's OBP was .307.

From an OBP persepective, he sucked. Good thing he's not a leadoff hitter. From a SLG perspective, he's good there. Combine them, then he's just average for production for this year. That doesn't constitute as suck.

Funny, though, other GM's like chicks, dig the long ball. Hell, we did too with signing Hamilton. Instead of signing Hambone, we could have just signed Greinke and still see the development of Calhoun. But we have two potential south paw starters. eh? I'd rather have one proven Ace and still have money to go after another proven starter like Garza.

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12-13-2013, 02:27 AM
  #198
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RBI is meaningless if you're a table setter. For power hitters, like Trumbo, it matters. SLG has him third on the team, but his OBP lowers his overall offensive production (OPS). Using 200 plate appearances as a qualified starting point, Trumbo is fourth in OPS (which is OBP + SLG), behind Trout, Kendrick, and Pujols. Rookie Calhoun had 195 plate appearances, but if included would rank 2nd between Trout and Kendrick - which made Trumbo expendable.

Two seasons ago (2012) was Trumbo's second year in the MLB's and his best with a slash line of .268/.317/.491/.808 (Avg/OBP/SLG/OPS). This year it's .238/.294/.453/.747. Despite the dip, he brought home five more runs this past season compared to 2012. As a power hitter, his job is to slug in runs. After Trumbo, there are a bunch of slap single happy hitters. If Trumbo were a more disciplined hitter, then there's no way in hell we trade him nor would we had to go and sign Hamilton last season.

Trumbo's young to the MLB's. This is his third season in the MLB's as a power hitter. If Trumbo is able to reach his 2012 stats with his power of last season, then Arizona's got an above average power producing bat. And considering that Trumbo's walk rate has improved for the past three years, says at least he's improving. But his one good trait, raw power, is quite a valuable trait and quantifiable with SLG and OPS.

Which would you rather have? Trumbo and his contract or Hamilton and his contract? They're virtually similar players, but Trumbo produced better last year. No one's going to take on Hamilton's contract. Hambone was usually placed in front of Trumbo as a power hitter, but drove in 30 less runs than Trumbo. And yet Hambone's OBP was .307.

From an OBP persepective, he sucked. Good thing he's not a leadoff hitter. From a SLG perspective, he's good there. Combine them, then he's just average for production for this year. That doesn't constitute as suck.

Funny, though, other GM's like chicks, dig the long ball. Hell, we did too with signing Hamilton. Instead of signing Hambone, we could have just signed Greinke and still see the development of Calhoun. But we have two potential south paw starters. eh? I'd rather have one proven Ace and still have money to go after another proven starter like Garza.
I would love Trumbo at his contract over Hamilton, but that is unrealistic. The Angels are stuck with Hamilton and Pujols, and they had only Trumbo that could net the return of two cheap back of the rotation starters while only losing one asset.

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12-13-2013, 10:27 AM
  #199
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Trumbo being "good in his role" as a slugger is a fallacy, because that "role" isn't a useful one to begin with. Apparently the only qualification for being a good slugger is hitting a lot of home runs, which makes him below average as a useful player. You'd rather have a more well-rounded player who actually gets on base.

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12-13-2013, 10:32 AM
  #200
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While I don't LOVE this deal, because Skaggs had some real question marks at the end of last season, I understand why it was made and agree that teams rarely win with players like Trumbo. Dipoto seems to have a real hard on for Skaggs.
Keith Law had a good write up on what happened.

Quote:
Still just 22 years old, Skaggs took a step back in 2013 as the Diamondbacks shortened his stride, resulting in a higher release point that cost him several miles per hour on his fastball and depth on his breaking ball. Lengthen him out so he finishes out over his front side again and he should be back to 90-94 mph again with the hammer he had as recently as 2012, when he projected as a potential No. 2 starter and was the best left-handed starter prospect in the game.
http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/keith-law/post?id=1695

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