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The Carey Price Discussion Thread (part 2)

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Old
04-25-2013, 03:28 PM
  #826
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Originally Posted by Maltese View Post
Not bad for players who are representing 5 percent of their team.
lol implying goalies are worth exactly the same as every single player.

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Old
04-25-2013, 03:58 PM
  #827
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
wll that's where we disagree...

Whether Carey Price is elite or not has no bearing on what success the Habs can have with him in nets

unless you believe that only teams with elite goalies win the Cup - which we all know is not the case

Teams have won the Cup with goalies who aren't considered elite (Chicago, Pittsburgh, Detroit), while some teams have won with what people consider elite goalies (Kings with Quick, but who here thought he was 'elite' before last year???? anyone???) while plenty of teams that have had elite goaltending (Rangers with Lundqvist, Sabres with Miller) have never even gotten to a Cup final.

I think you just need a goalie to get really hot at the right time, and you have a chance...and really, any goalie can get hot at any time.
This really doesn't make much sense. Does he need to be elite to win? NO. But it does indeed matter whether he plays elite or not. I'd say that matters for every player on the team.

I just don't get the response to Carey needing to play better by listing teams that have won cups with less than stellar goaltending. I just don't understand what one has to do with the other.

He needs to play better as do 98% of the team. I don't care about other teams and how they won cups.

Furthermore, as many teams as you can list that haven't won Cups with good goalies...I can list way more that didn't even make the playoffs with bad goaltending. The thing about good goaltending is it always gives you a chance.

If you built a team, would you rather get a top goalie, or an average one and hope he played over his head in the playoffs?

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04-25-2013, 04:22 PM
  #828
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
This really doesn't make much sense. Does he need to be elite to win? NO. But it does indeed matter whether he plays elite or not. I'd say that matters for every player on the team.

I just don't get the response to Carey needing to play better by listing teams that have won cups with less than stellar goaltending. I just don't understand what one has to do with the other.

He needs to play better as do 98% of the team. I don't care about other teams and how they won cups.

Furthermore, as many teams as you can list that haven't won Cups with good goalies...I can list way more that didn't even make the playoffs with bad goaltending. The thing about good goaltending is it always gives you a chance.

If you built a team, would you rather get a top goalie, or an average one and hope he played over his head in the playoffs?
you might get a better understanding by looking at other teams as well.

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04-25-2013, 04:24 PM
  #829
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An article showing the unpredictability of PK save %: http://oilersnation.com/2011/11/3/wh...was-a-bad-idea

In the context of a Price thread, this concept could be reason for some optimism. That league-worst .803 shouldn't last. (Last year's extreme example would be Steve Mason, .796 on the PK - .929 this year - while his ES number barely moved from .911 to .906.)

Not that Price's .920 at ES is what you'd expect from a goalie with Price's contract, but it's not dreadful, more like mediocre.


Last edited by Roulin: 04-25-2013 at 04:30 PM.
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04-25-2013, 05:07 PM
  #830
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do people still believe goaltending is important lol ? It Might be THE most overrated position in every sports.

This is not 1993 anymore where elite goalie were very superior to other goalie. nowdays very freaking goalie is good. It's all about : systems , luck and hot streak.



-LOL tim thomas : random dude who out of nowhere record the best % ever at like 35 y/o. how can you take goaltending seriously after that ?
-Jim Carey : from Vezina winner to zero
-Bobrovsky from zero to hero
-Niemi was considered trash with the black****s and he's a legit Vezina nominnee
-Emery and Crawford ( 2 " bad goalie") have crazy stats
-Theodore from Hart and Vezina winner to backup in like 5 years
-Cristobal huet from good goalie in MTL to garbage

the list goes on


lol @ poeple who thinks goalenting is important.

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Old
04-25-2013, 05:13 PM
  #831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bieber fever View Post
do people still believe goaltending is important lol ? It Might be THE most overrated position in every sports.

This is not 1993 anymore where elite goalie were very superior to other goalie. nowdays very freaking goalie is good. It's all about : systems , luck and hot streak.



-LOL tim thomas : random dude who out of nowhere record the best % ever at like 35 y/o. how can you take goaltending seriously after that ?
-Jim Carey : from Vezina winner to zero
-Bobrovsky from zero to hero
-Niemi was considered trash with the black****s and he's a legit Vezina nominnee
-Emery and Crawford ( 2 " bad goalie") have crazy stats
-Theodore from Hart and Vezina winner to backup in like 5 years
-Cristobal huet from good goalie in MTL to garbage

the list goes on


lol @ poeple who thinks goalenting is important.
Yup, might as well put a stick in net. Goaltending doesn't matter.

Ask the Flyers.

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Old
04-25-2013, 05:15 PM
  #832
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bieber fever View Post
do people still believe goaltending is important lol ? It Might be THE most overrated position in every sports.

This is not 1993 anymore where elite goalie were very superior to other goalie. nowdays very freaking goalie is good. It's all about : systems , luck and hot streak.



-LOL tim thomas : random dude who out of nowhere record the best % ever at like 35 y/o. how can you take goaltending seriously after that ?
-Jim Carey : from Vezina winner to zero
-Bobrovsky from zero to hero
-Niemi was considered trash with the black****s and he's a legit Vezina nominnee
-Emery and Crawford ( 2 " bad goalie") have crazy stats
-Theodore from Hart and Vezina winner to backup in like 5 years
-Cristobal huet from good goalie in MTL to garbage

the list goes on


lol @ poeple who thinks goalenting is important.
Important ≠ Easily predictable

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Old
04-25-2013, 05:16 PM
  #833
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Originally Posted by Bieber fever View Post
do people still believe goaltending is important lol ? It Might be THE most overrated position in every sports.

This is not 1993 anymore where elite goalie were very superior to other goalie. nowdays very freaking goalie is good. It's all about : systems , luck and hot streak.



-LOL tim thomas : random dude who out of nowhere record the best % ever at like 35 y/o. how can you take goaltending seriously after that ?
-Jim Carey : from Vezina winner to zero
-Bobrovsky from zero to hero
-Niemi was considered trash with the black****s and he's a legit Vezina nominnee
-Emery and Crawford ( 2 " bad goalie") have crazy stats
-Theodore from Hart and Vezina winner to backup in like 5 years
-Cristobal huet from good goalie in MTL to garbage

the list goes on


lol @ poeple who thinks goalenting is important.
Aside from ignoring the very consistent ones who are often their team's MVP, you really can't win with crappy goaltending or even subpar. Name the last Stanley Cup winner with a goalie who wasn't terrific for them.

I think you're implying that you can't predict who will BE good in the playoffs, but I think if you look at the past champions, there's plenty of evidence to support that those goalies were the ones to start.

The ones you mention haven't won Stanley Cups except Thomas and Niemi and so far Thomas hasn't shown a decline by way of becoming a media lightning rod (his own fault). Niemi was a so so goalie who got hot for the playoffs but mostly the team in front of him was insane.

It's about having the best possible chance at having a goalie who will be able to deliver. Not gonna go into a discussion about Price, but the point is that is does matter very much who you have in net. I agree that there's less parity, but having the guy who will push just that extra bit and find a way - that's what everyone wants and that's what they need. Conne Smythes going to goalies should back that up.

btw, is hawk a censored word or did you call them the Blackfks?

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04-25-2013, 05:17 PM
  #834
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Originally Posted by compile View Post
Hi I'm Detroit's DEFENCE.
Nice to meet you.
Hi, I'm Chris Osgood and Dominik Hasek. Show me my "poor goaltending" during any of the Red Wings' significant runs through the playoffs in recent years. The poorest they've seen is from Jimmy Howard and guess what... they haven't made it out of the second round with him between the pipes.

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Old
04-25-2013, 05:19 PM
  #835
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Yup, might as well put a stick in net. Goaltending doesn't matter.

Ask the Flyers.
Like I said " It's all about : systems , luck and hot streak."

Flyers have bad goaltenting because their system suck ( and fleyr D is putrid).They gave Brobrosvky all the chance to become the #1 goalie but he sucked.Now that he was traded to columbus he's probably going to win the Vezina ? LOL that just prove how random his goaltending. Same thing with Bryz. He had great stats with phoenix but now he suck with the flyer.

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04-25-2013, 05:29 PM
  #836
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Carey Price has never gotten a pass for anything...have you just started following the Habs?
Wait, I think you're being serious. Okay, I'll limit this to the one glaring example that I'm sure everyone is thinking of. It's "all the way back" in '08/09, when Price had a post-all star game split of 25 GP, 3.37 GAA, and 0.891 SV%. Halak's splits for the same period were 13 GP, 2.80 GAA, 0.929 SV%. Apparently is was still Carey's net, though... all the way through that 4 game sweep by the Bruins in the first round. And who was between the pipes as the starter for game 1 of the '09/10 season? Price.

Maybe you don't consider that a suitable example, which is fine I suppose, but I do - and I doubt I'm alone. It's water under the bridge at this point, but since you made the claim... That's pretty blatantly a free pass to make mistakes and develop if you ask me, as they were willing to keep a goalie playing better hockey on the back burner - at least twice. Was given another pass after getting kind of destroyed by Halak statistically in '09/10, as Price was obviously the choice of the future, at the expense of the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bieber fever View Post
lol @ poeple who thinks goalenting is important.
Actually, LOL @ the people who don't think "goalenting" is important. Goaltending, even, is incredibly important. I'll agree, however, that the difference between an "elite" goalie and a "very good" goalie isn't as much as you sometimes see reflected in the contracts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by compile View Post
The only true awards are the Maurice Richard and Hart as they are a pure statistical award.
Speaking of opinions being invalidated...


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 04-25-2013 at 06:33 PM.
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Old
04-25-2013, 05:30 PM
  #837
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Originally Posted by compile View Post
Your opinion is invalidated for the simple fact you don't understand the game of Hockey at all. Not only that you completely ignored my question about naming some teams.

Or does your royal highness believe he's the greatest talent assessor of his time. Oh wait I'll probably get reported for calling you "royal highness."

Your observations are completely wrong. They were right up until the point that Budaj was put in net only to be replaced by the same goalie you are crying about. Maybe its not all on Price but the WHOLE damn team. Actually it is the WHOLE damn team and you fail yet again at seeing that.

Individual awards mean nothing at all, especially when people have to VOTE on them. IE, Vezina, Conn Smyth etc.

The only true awards are the Maurice Richard and Hart as they are a pure statistical award. That is also besides the point because majority (if not all) of the players could care less about individual awards.

Do you think G.S Giguere cared for winning the Conn Smyth while losing the Stanely Cup?

Again name me teams that have won a Stanely Cup in the past decade that:
A)Have won without a solid defense.
B)Have won without a solid defense and a elite goalie.
C)Have won with a solid defense and a mediocre goalie.
D)Have won with a solid defense and a sub avg goalie.

hockeyfan2k11 > the history of the game.
The hart is not a statistical award, before you dog others for their lack of knowledge, maybe, just maybe, know what the hell you're talking about.

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Old
04-25-2013, 05:33 PM
  #838
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Aside from ignoring the very consistent ones who are often their team's MVP, you really can't win with crappy goaltending or even subpar. Name the last Stanley Cup winner with a goalie who wasn't terrific for them.

I think you're implying that you can't predict who will BE good in the playoffs, but I think if you look at the past champions, there's plenty of evidence to support that those goalies were the ones to start.

The ones you mention haven't won Stanley Cups except Thomas and Niemi and so far Thomas hasn't shown a decline by way of becoming a media lightning rod (his own fault). Niemi was a so so goalie who got hot for the playoffs but mostly the team in front of him was insane.

It's about having the best possible chance at having a goalie who will be able to deliver. Not gonna go into a discussion about Price, but the point is that is does matter very much who you have in net. I agree that there's less parity, but having the guy who will push just that extra bit and find a way - that's what everyone wants and that's what they need. Conne Smythes going to goalies should back that up.

btw, is hawk a censored word or did you call them the Blackfks?
Last 10 Staley cup winner :

Quick
Thomas
Niemi
Fleury
Osgood
Giguere
Ward
Khabibulin
Brodeur


Brodeur and Thomas are the only one who were considered top 5 imo. People tend to say those goalie were good AFTER they win the Stanley Cup.

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Old
04-25-2013, 05:40 PM
  #839
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It's funny that those who were slagging palidrom <--?? earlier are the ones now claiming there isn't much separation between goalies anymore. Exactly what he was saying. Spending oodles of cash on someone that isn't likely to significantly increase your chances may not be a good strategy. I'm not a fan at all of your goalie being your highest paid player, no matter who he is. Likewise, I'm not a fan of spending top 5- 10 overall draft picks on them. The team in front is more important.

Goaltending is highly dependent on the team, of course they can go on runs where they are in the zone playing ridiculous or they can go on streaks where they're terrible, but in the end, there's 20-40 goalies that keep teams in games the majority of the time. Price is one of many imo, I don't see top 5 in him and I've never seen him play to top 5 level over an entire season, close once, but that's it, however, this is largely due to his team, we haven't been elite either.

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Old
04-25-2013, 05:45 PM
  #840
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
This really doesn't make much sense. Does he need to be elite to win? NO. But it does indeed matter whether he plays elite or not. I'd say that matters for every player on the team.

I just don't get the response to Carey needing to play better by listing teams that have won cups with less than stellar goaltending. I just don't understand what one has to do with the other.

He needs to play better as do 98% of the team. I don't care about other teams and how they won cups.

Furthermore, as many teams as you can list that haven't won Cups with good goalies...I can list way more that didn't even make the playoffs with bad goaltending. The thing about good goaltending is it always gives you a chance.

If you built a team, would you rather get a top goalie, or an average one and hope he played over his head in the playoffs?
To answer your last question... Obviously, I'd rather have a top goalie

But having a top goalie doesn't guarantee a damn thing

Lots of components to a team... Having what is perceived as elite goaltending isn't always a prerequisite

Depends how your team is built... Let's take this year for example

If the habs stand any chance of going far in the playoffs, they NEED elite goaltending imo

While the Pens or Hawks don't have the same need from their goalies...

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Old
04-25-2013, 06:21 PM
  #841
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Originally Posted by Bieber fever View Post
do people still believe goaltending is important lol ? It Might be THE most overrated position in every sports.

This is not 1993 anymore where elite goalie were very superior to other goalie. nowdays very freaking goalie is good. It's all about : systems , luck and hot streak.



-LOL tim thomas : random dude who out of nowhere record the best % ever at like 35 y/o. how can you take goaltending seriously after that ?
-Jim Carey : from Vezina winner to zero
-Bobrovsky from zero to hero
-Niemi was considered trash with the black****s and he's a legit Vezina nominnee
-Emery and Crawford ( 2 " bad goalie") have crazy stats
-Theodore from Hart and Vezina winner to backup in like 5 years
-Cristobal huet from good goalie in MTL to garbage

the list goes on




lol @ poeple who thinks goalenting is important.
Didn't Niemi win the cup with the blackhawks?

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Old
04-25-2013, 06:43 PM
  #842
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Didn't Niemi win the cup with the blackhawks?
His point was that besides very few goalies, their statistics are almost random, they fluctuate greatly from year to year. He's right, where he is wrong is when he says good goaltending isn't important, it is, who is providing it isn't.

Chris Osgood never really let the wings down in the playoffs, they got good to really good goaltending when it mattered most of the time, even though Chris Osgood was never considered one of the top 5 goalies in any given season.

Niemi was basically unknown prior to his cup, no one considered him a top goalie, but he still played quite well during the run. Everyone knocks Fleury, he's not really a top, top echelon goalie, but he was still excellent during at least one of the Pens runs. Good goaltending is important, who provides it isn't.

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04-25-2013, 09:40 PM
  #843
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Price has been solid the last 2 games, especially tonight. Seems he found his game back just in time.

 
Old
04-25-2013, 09:50 PM
  #844
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
The hart is not a statistical award, before you dog others for their lack of knowledge, maybe, just maybe, know what the hell you're talking about.
Typo.
I meant Art.
Good job picking 1 mistake out of a post though.

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04-25-2013, 09:56 PM
  #845
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Hi, I'm Chris Osgood and Dominik Hasek. Show me my "poor goaltending" during any of the Red Wings' significant runs through the playoffs in recent years. The poorest they've seen is from Jimmy Howard and guess what... they haven't made it out of the second round with him between the pipes.
Now lets name the defence on those teams.

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04-25-2013, 10:01 PM
  #846
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Originally Posted by Lionel Mandrake View Post
Price has been solid the last 2 games, especially tonight. Seems he found his game back just in time.
Stunning tonight

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04-25-2013, 10:11 PM
  #847
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Price has been solid the last 2 games, especially tonight. Seems he found his game back just in time.
.920 SV% tonight, keep that up and we'll have a good chance in the playoffs!

He also made an awesome save on that Wheeler breakaway.

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04-25-2013, 10:30 PM
  #848
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Price played great tonight and made many key saves...even the Price haters can't deny that one.

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04-25-2013, 10:31 PM
  #849
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.920 SV% tonight, keep that up and we'll have a good chance in the playoffs!

He also made an awesome save on that Wheeler breakaway.
I especially liked his poise tonight. He was tracking the puck well. Hopefully this is the spark that gives a confidence boost to this D.

 
Old
04-25-2013, 11:03 PM
  #850
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I especially liked his poise tonight. He was tracking the puck well. Hopefully this is the spark that gives a confidence boost to this D.
Depending on this weekend's action the Habs will face the fifth seed or the seventh seed in he first round. Others may be indifferent but I'm not. If they finish fourth and defeat the Leafs they'd have to face Pittsburgh in the second round. If they finish ahead of the Bruins and win in the first round they'd probably face Washington in the second while the Penguins take on the Bruins. Naturally, I hope the Habs finish second in the East for practical as well as psychological reasons. Does anyone have a different POV?

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