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Greatest leaf all time ?

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Old
04-18-2013, 05:37 PM
  #126
Confucius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ View Post
Sittler, Keon, Apps, Gilmour, Sundin, Salming, Bower...too many players playing in different periods to really make a definitive statement as to who was the best. During my time as a Leaf's fan Gilmour was the most dominant Leaf I have ever seen. Even if he only played a short time with Toronto "Killer" left such an impression with me that I would have to go with him. Sundin wins it for longevity but he never approached the levels of dominance that Gilmour acheived while playing with the Leafs.
13 seasons, a little short of Armstrong 21

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04-19-2013, 12:41 AM
  #127
charliolemieux
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Originally Posted by Around in 67 View Post
didn't realize that in 1972 there were only 6 teams in the NHL.

okay so 99% of the worlds best players

putz
Putz yourself bub. 99% not likely. I would say the percentage would be imilar to what it is today. Maybe even less since this country has spent so much money on development over the last 50years.

Since you missed the point let me break it down for you.

The 72 series proved that Canada did not have a monopoly on the best players in the world. In fact there were players that were better than any Canadians that played over seas. A fact that has been proven more than a few times in the last 30 years. So every time you trot out things like "All-star team line ups" and "6 best goalies in the world" it is completely false. And a foolish statement to make.

Like I said make 5 teams out of Canadians in the league today. There were 6 teams back then but there were Americans that played, so just make 5. You won't get far before you start to notice there are better Europeans for the position.

Coaching is better, training is better, equipment is better, and bigger(particularly goalies), and there are twice as many rounds of playoffs to win before you win the Cup. So tell me again how it was harder to win a cup in the pre-expansion era.

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04-19-2013, 01:16 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
For your information.

The 1967 Cup winning Leafs team had future Hockey Hall of Famers Davey Keon, Frank Mahovlich, Red Kelly, George Armstrong, Bob Pulford, Tim Horton, Allan Stanley, Marcel Pronovost, Johnny Bower, Terry Sawchuk on their team. That is 10 players on a 20 man team or 50% an ALL-Star team.

Their competition at the time had similar makeups of many HHOFers playing together.

How many current Maple Leafs are destined for the HHOF or can you think of any current NHL team able to say 1/2 their current team is heading to the Hockey Hall of fame?
When Detroit was at their peak they routinely had 7 or more Future HoF on the team. And I would say 10 maybe even 11 on the 01-02 depending on how the voting goes.

When ever you put together an older group you will end up with a lot of future HoF on it. Just look at the 03-04 Leafs.

Colorado had teams with several HoF on it. Dallas. STL, PHI, PIT, there's tons of teams over the last 20+ years that have had several future HoF on it at the same time.

Pre-expansion just because there were fewer players to choose from and winning Cups is/was such a big part of getting into the hall, if you were on a winning team a few times, with just decent numbers you had a good chance of getting into the HHoF.

How is it that Hockey with only 6 teams for most of it's existence has more HoF members than the Baseball hall of fame? That includes players elected from the Negro league. Makes you think that being put in the Hall as an original 6 player while still an honour, might have been a bit too easy, and handed out a bit to often.

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Old
04-19-2013, 01:20 AM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charon of Styx View Post
13 seasons, a little short of Armstrong 21
Armstrong coached too.

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Old
04-19-2013, 08:23 AM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ View Post
Sittler, Keon, Apps, Gilmour, Sundin, Salming, Bower...too many players playing in different periods to really make a definitive statement as to who was the best. During my time as a Leaf's fan Gilmour was the most dominant Leaf I have ever seen. Even if he only played a short time with Toronto "Killer" left such an impression with me that I would have to go with him. Sundin wins it for longevity but he never approached the levels of dominance that Gilmour acheived while playing with the Leafs.
Daves Stanley and Conn that year disagree with you


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Old
04-19-2013, 02:26 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Putz yourself bub. 99% not likely. I would say the percentage would be imilar to what it is today. Maybe even less since this country has spent so much money on development over the last 50years.

Since you missed the point let me break it down for you.

The 72 series proved that Canada did not have a monopoly on the best players in the world. In fact there were players that were better than any Canadians that played over seas. A fact that has been proven more than a few times in the last 30 years. So every time you trot out things like "All-star team line ups" and "6 best goalies in the world" it is completely false. And a foolish statement to make.

Like I said make 5 teams out of Canadians in the league today. There were 6 teams back then but there were Americans that played, so just make 5. You won't get far before you start to notice there are better Europeans for the position.

Coaching is better, training is better, equipment is better, and bigger(particularly goalies), and there are twice as many rounds of playoffs to win before you win the Cup. So tell me again how it was harder to win a cup in the pre-expansion era.
you are out to lunch. the 72 summit series showed the Russians were better trained, and better conditioned. And that they had a few pretty good players. They had one of the best, if not the best, goalies in the game, and that certainly helped in keeping the series closer than it should have been. The Canadians lack of conditioning also played in. Back then players did nothing all summer and worked their way back into shape in training camp and as the season went on.

There is no way in hell there were as many talented hockey players not Canadian born in the 60's and before as there are today. Not even close.

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Old
04-19-2013, 03:16 PM
  #132
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Johnny Bower.

On a side note, I hope Reimer can follow in his footsteps. He's on a good start.

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Old
04-19-2013, 03:36 PM
  #133
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Canucks fan here. I dont know much about pre expansion so I am going to go with post expansion.

My Greatest leaf since 1967 is probably Darryl Sittler. Hes my favorite. Im probably biased though. Wendl Clark and Mats Sundin were also fantastic.

Man what a tough question.

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Old
04-19-2013, 05:47 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
So are you saying that 1/30(1/16) odds give you a better chance of winning than 1/6(1/4) odds?


LMAO


No different than today. Make 5 teams out of just Canadians and see how low down the depth chart you get. All-star teams.


It wass not the BEst in the World. That is so false. IT was the best from Canada, and a few from the States.

There were plenty of better players playing over seas. 1972 proved that.
1972 proves what happens when a bunch of guys get thrown together against a bunch of guys who play together regularly. The end is all that matters, and the end was definitive. Russia and some Czechs were the only real talent in Europe at the time and of them all, maybe, maybe 10 guys would play in the NHL on skill alone, and likely only half of that would hack it. Not to mention, who wasn't on Canada's team in the first place

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Old
04-19-2013, 05:58 PM
  #135
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I'm not really sure who I would take, but there should really only be 4 names in this discussion - Tim Horton, Syl Apps, Ted Kennedy, and Dave Keon. Those are easily the top 4.

After that, guys like Borje Salming, Carlie Conacher, Frank Mahovloch, and Turk Broda would be the next wave.

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Old
04-19-2013, 06:17 PM
  #136
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Clark for me. The guy wore his heart on his sleeve, every game. Think what he could have done if his back was 100%

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Old
04-20-2013, 02:06 AM
  #137
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Going all the way back, best leafs are (interchangeable/no order) Turk Broda, Red Kelly, Tim Horton, Johnny Bower, King, Frank Mahovlich, Syl Apps, Georgie Armstrong, Dave Keon, Darryl Sittler, Borje Salming, Dougie, Wendel, Sundin. Gotta say my top 3 are Sundin, Borje, and Bower.

Considering how old i am (24 in june) and the era i grew up in, my favourite is Sundin. Nothing but great memories and i have abad taste still from how poorly Fletcher handled his situation.

Although ill never forget meeting Bpwer in the local grocery store and how awesome a guy he is. Talked to me for a good half hour about the good old days when he won cups. Learned a lot about the game in that short time...im sp happy i had that opportunity.

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Old
04-20-2013, 08:11 AM
  #138
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Greatest guys I have watched play for the Leafs would be between Sundin and Gilmore. Sundin had the ultimate tool box (6'5, great vision, good to great skater for his size, amazing shot forehand and backhand) I would think he would be a top 5 player in the league if the clutch and grab rules were enforced during his peak (and he had a real scoring winger). Gilmore for his hockey sense, grit and intangibles. Looking at it historically though in the overall history of the Leafs i think these guys would pale in comparison to the Kid Line (Butcher Jackson, Conacher and Joe Primeau), Frank Mahovlich, Tedder Kennedy, George Armstrong and Keon.

In my opinion based off information from my dad who was alive or some of these guys (who would say Keon) and historical info I would probably go Red Kelly or Mahovlich. Kelly was #23 all time on Hockey News best players of all time, could play center or defense at equally high level (only modern player i've heard of who was supposed to be capable of this is Fedorov) and was key or our last cup.

The case for Mahovlich goes as such. He was a product from the Leafs youth system, during his time on the leafs he was an all star from 1959-65 and 1967, was a 1st team all star in 1961 and 1963 (while Keon or Kelly never were with the leafs), 2nd team all star 1962 and 1964-1966. Also his trade marks an end of the era as he was traded in 1967-68.

Honorable Mention to Keon (who is the only player to win a conn smythe as a leaf).

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Old
04-20-2013, 08:30 AM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charon of Styx View Post
Frank Mahovlich
Scored 48 goals in 1961, when 20 was considered a big deal. Led the team in goals scored for all 3 of the. Cup winning years, 1962, 1963 and 1964.
The Big M for me also..

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Old
04-20-2013, 12:13 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 93LEAFS View Post
Greatest guys I have watched play for the Leafs would be between Sundin and Gilmore. Sundin had the ultimate tool box (6'5, great vision, good to great skater for his size, amazing shot forehand and backhand) I would think he would be a top 5 player in the league if the clutch and grab rules were enforced during his peak (and he had a real scoring winger). Gilmore for his hockey sense, grit and intangibles. Looking at it historically though in the overall history of the Leafs i think these guys would pale in comparison to the Kid Line (Butcher Jackson, Conacher and Joe Primeau), Frank Mahovlich, Tedder Kennedy, George Armstrong and Keon.

In my opinion based off information from my dad who was alive or some of these guys (who would say Keon) and historical info I would probably go Red Kelly or Mahovlich. Kelly was #23 all time on Hockey News best players of all time, could play center or defense at equally high level (only modern player i've heard of who was supposed to be capable of this is Fedorov) and was key or our last cup.

The case for Mahovlich goes as such. He was a product from the Leafs youth system, during his time on the leafs he was an all star from 1959-65 and 1967, was a 1st team all star in 1961 and 1963 (while Keon or Kelly never were with the leafs), 2nd team all star 1962 and 1964-1966. Also his trade marks an end of the era as he was traded in 1967-68.

Honorable Mention to Keon (who is the only player to win a conn smythe as a leaf).
Winning the Conn Smythe award says it all. Keon is my all time number one Leaf favorite.

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